Thoughts on SSJ2 Teen Gohan

[Doctor.]

He WAS conscious when he killed that Freeza soldier. He wasn't enraged at all, he did it out of his own free will.

[EXBadguy]

He WAS conscious when he killed that Freeza soldier. He wasn't enraged at all, he did it out of his own free will.

Okay, what about him maturing and realizing what he's doing?

[Doctor.]

That'd be completely fine and understandable if the story actually BOTHERED to show Gohan regretting about killing someone in the past. Anything at all, one line would be fine. But nope, it doesn't. It's almost like Gohan completely forgot about it, which makes his speech in the Cell Games completely hypocritical. The "Gohan matured" argument seems to me like Gohan fans looking for things that aren't there to justify his inconsistent characterization.

[EXBadguy]

And I feel like the whole "Gohan isn't really a fighter" is just people looking for a reason to not let have Gohan develop into something good. You wanna say people are over exaggerating this version of Gohan, fine, but maybe some people who are dissappointed in Gohan wanted him to mature into a being that knows right and wrong and be balanced, study and train. Nobody's saying he has to be a Goku clone. And if Toriyama didn't really want Gohan to do anything in the Buu saga, then leave him be, let him retire gracefully from fighting.

Throughout the story, he kept on hesitating to fight, even after he forced his mom to let him go to Namek, he still felt forced to fight most of the tine.

[DBZAOTA482]

I keep seeing this argument come up but you're basically grasping at straws here, the moment isn't any more contrived than anything else in Dragonball. There doesn't need to be a relationship between 16 and Gohan for his death to have an impact. From an audience perspective we know 16 is kind and gentle and this makes us feel sadness and compassion for him. From Gohan's perspective he sees a life being snuffed out in front of him which is an unjust and cruel act. He feels compassion for 16 not only because of the speech (which is as much bonding as you need between the two) but also because he's the type of character that clearly cares for all living things, Android or not.

It amazes me how people can find all sorts of rationalisations for why Gohan shouldn't have mystic (or even SS2 for that matter...) and yet at the same time they find flaws in moments like this. it speaks volumes how strong of a bias people have against the character.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy any of that. The Z-Fighters also were willing to throw their lives on the because they gave a shit about the everything and everyone on Earth. Remember Gohan's reaction after Piccolo died saving his life? That was emotional because Gohan at least got the chance to build a relationship with Piccolo to make the moment he died feel more relatable, genuine and powerful. Gohan was watching his family and friends he trained and grew up with getting beaten to death and it doesn't affect him other than making him gritting his teeth harder. Yet a random Android that Gohan doesn't know on any other level, other than he cares for all living beings on life, a viewpoint all of the Z-Fighters excluding Vegeta at that time also shared, and suddenly that makes Gohan snap and go over the edge? Nah. That's not good enough for me. I always feel that proper relationship needed to be built between the two characters to justify Gohan reacting the way he did when #16 was killed. It just helps the moment feel more raw and believable. Like when Goku became SSJ for the first time. To me, it just felt like Toriyama needed an excuse for Gohan to become a SSJ2 and he threw in that speech from #16 just so that the moment could happen. All we knew about #16 prior to moment is that kinda liked birds. That's it. Hell, didn't #16 state he would still kill Goku if they were successful in defeating Cell? So that whole "#16 cares about all living things" characteristic kinda feel even more contrived. It's just all one big, fat mess, in my opinion.

You're exaggerating. I frequently participate in Gohan threads on this forum and nobody is saying the things that you're saying, in fact, what I mostly see are Gohan haters.

It's not this forum in particular I'm talking about. It's an opinion I've seen many other different forums all over the internet for years.

It was affecting him but he was holding back due to fear of losing control over his powers. #16's death wasn't exactly what pushed him over... it was the cruelty in his fate.

That'd be completely fine and understandable if the story actually BOTHERED to show Gohan regretting about killing someone in the past. Anything at all, one line would be fine. But nope, it doesn't. It's almost like Gohan completely forgot about it, which makes his speech in the Cell Games completely hypocritical. The "Gohan matured" argument seems to me like Gohan fans looking for things that aren't there to justify his inconsistent characterization.

Gohan has no problem killing if he has to but he'd rather solve things peacefully and him telling Cell he doesn't want to kill him is more him giving fair warning of his rage boost.

[Doctor.]

And I feel like the whole "Gohan isn't really a fighter" is just people looking for a reason to not let have Gohan develop into something good. You wanna say people are over exaggerating this version of Gohan, fine, but maybe some people who are dissappointed in Gohan wanted him to mature into a being that knows right and wrong and be balanced, study and train. Nobody's saying he has to be a Goku clone. And if Toriyama didn't really want Gohan to do anything in the Buu saga, then leave him be, let him retire gracefully from fighting.

Throughout the story, he kept on hesitating to fight, even after he forced his mom to let him go to Namek, he still felt forced to fight most of the tine.

But Gohan developed into a capable fighter in the Boo arc. He enjoyed fighting in the Boo arc. He had no problem killing in the Boo arc.

That really didn't have anything to do with what I was saying, though.

Gohan has no problem killing if he has to but he'd rather solve things peacefully and him telling Cell he doesn't want to kill him is more him giving fair warning of his rage boost.

So he gives Cell multiple chances to live (Cell even calls him out on his bullshit), but not a random Freeza soldier? That makes sense.

[EXBadguy]

But Gohan developed into a capable fighter in the Boo arc. He enjoyed fighting in the Boo arc. He had no problem killing in the Boo arc.

Too bad it took a long time for him to train into a capable fighter instead of training during the past 7 years. And I said prior to Cell, he still felt forced to fight, even after he told his mom that he's going to Namek.

So he gives Cell multiple chances to live (Cell even calls him out on his bullshit), but not a random Freeza soldier? That makes sense.

Maybe the Frieza soldiers were just trying to do their job while Cell is different.

[Doctor.]

Too bad it took a long time for him to train into a capable fighter instead of training during the past 7 years. And I said prior to Cell, he still felt forced to fight, even after he told his mom that he's going to Namek.

Maybe the Freeza soldiers were just trying to do their job while Cell is different.

I know he felt forced to fight. He wasn't forced to kill people. Yet he did. That's my complaint here.

That's even MORE of a reason to SPARE the Freeza soldier and kill Cell, lol.

[LuckyCat]

The unspoken assumption is that something happened to Gohan in the RoSaT that gave him both heightened powers and a heightened respect for his latent potential to wantonly destroy. It's hogwash if you compare it to Gohan over the rest of the series, but contained within the Cell arc it works, I suppose.

[Kamiccolo9]

Gohan ages 5 years between the Namek Arc and the Cell Games. That's almost as long as the gap before the Buu Arc. People change as they grow up. It happens.

[Doctor.]

Gohan ages 5 years between the Namek Arc and the Cell Games. That's almost as long as the gap before the Buu Arc. People change as they grow up. It happens.

Yes, I know, but like I said, I wouldn't have a problem if the story bothered to portray Gohan as a character who changed. In the Boo arc for instance, Gohan is criticized for the lack of training, his Saiyaman outfit is ridiculed, the story is showing us that these traits of his are new and it's showing how the other characters react to it. Gohan's sudden no kill policy in the Cell arc? Completely out of nowhere. Not one line from Gohan saying he regretted killing someone in the past, nobody commented on his speech to Cell as if it were something new, the story portrayed Gohan as someone who always had these ideals, which simply isn't true. And you simply can't glance over this ideal of his, because it's a major plot point in the Cell fight. Sure, you can say it's character development, but I think that's just trying to desperately justify inconsistent characterization.

And trust me, I was one of the people before that defended Gohan's portrayal as being consistent. But looking at the way he killed the Freeza soldier in the past, I just can't justify it anymore. But it's just this aspect of his characterization in the Cell arc that I find inconsistent. I'm completely fine with him not liking fighting and him standing paralyzed when the Cell Jrs are killing his friends.

[EXBadguy]

I know he felt forced to fight. He wasn't forced to kill people. Yet he did. That's my complaint here.

Well, I say he was forced to kill too. He tried to destroy Nappa.

[TheUltimateVegito]

Gohan ages 5 years between the Namek Arc and the Cell Games. That's almost as long as the gap before the Buu Arc. People change as they grow up. It happens.

Yes, I know, but like I said, I wouldn't have a problem if the story bothered to portray Gohan as a character who changed. In the Boo arc for instance, Gohan is criticized for the lack of training, his Saiyaman outfit is ridiculed, the story is showing us that these traits of his are new and it's showing how the other characters react to it. Gohan's sudden no kill policy in the Cell arc? Completely out of nowhere. Not one line from Gohan saying he regretted killing someone in the past, nobody commented on his speech to Cell as if it were something new, the story portrayed Gohan as someone who always had these ideals, which simply isn't true. And you simply can't glance over this ideal of his, because it's a major plot point in the Cell fight. Sure, you can say it's character development, but I think that's just trying to desperately justify inconsistent characterization.

And trust me, I was one of the people before that defended Gohan's portrayal as being consistent. But looking at the way he killed the Freeza soldier in the past, I just can't justify it anymore. But it's just this aspect of his characterization in the Cell arc that I find inconsistent. I'm completely fine with him not liking fighting and him standing paralyzed when the Cell Jrs are killing his friends.

There's no need to develop the "Not liking killing" aspect of his character because of the character himself.

Gohan's dislike for fighting in the Cell Games was a great twist which gave more depth to his character, while reflecting on his motivation up to that point.

Gohan never had a "No kill policy" it was only because he felt the Cell Games was pointless that he decided to let his belief of killing being a sin come to the surface. Before that, he would suppress that belief because he believed he was fighting for a cause greater than his own ideals.

[Kid Buu]

I found him rather lame, my least favourite incarnation of Gohan in the manga. He doesn't get to do much the entire arc and then gets shoehorned into the final battle. The Kameameha duel was nice, but watching him constantly beat down on Cell gets kinda boring after a while. It's like Broli fight from Movie 8 in that aspect.

[NitroEX]

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy any of that. The Z-Fighters also were willing to throw their lives on the because they gave a shit about the everything and everyone on Earth. Remember Gohan's reaction after Piccolo died saving his life? That was emotional because Gohan at least got the chance to build a relationship with Piccolo to make the moment he died feel more relatable, genuine and powerful.

An emotional bond was needed between Gohan and Piccolo because he was previously an evil character, Gohan would have just seen him as a threat otherwise. By the time he met 16 he was not only stronger than him but 16 hadn't even done anything evil yet. 16 had fought Cell and even defied his programmed objective to kill Goku.

Also I don't buy that the other Z fighters care as much about life as Gohan does. Look at how he reacted on Namek when Dodoria was about to kill Dende. He saw a helpless victim and felt compelled to intervene. krillin was in no hurry to help and only joined in once their cover was blown. There are other examples like the time Piccolo let Cell absorb a civilian in front of him. Most of them simply don't show the same level of compassion.

Gohan was watching his family and friends he trained and grew up with getting beaten to death and it doesn't affect him other than making him gritting his teeth harder. Yet a random Android that Gohan doesn't know on any other level, other than he cares for all living beings on life [snip] and suddenly that makes Gohan snap and go over the edge? Nah. That's not good enough for me. I always feel that proper relationship needed to be built between the two characters to justify Gohan reacting the way he did when #16 was killed. It just helps the moment feel more raw and believable. Like when Goku became SSJ for the first time. To me, it just felt like Toriyama needed an excuse for Gohan to become a SSJ2 and he threw in that speech from #16 just so that the moment could happen.

There's a key point that you're missing here, and that's that none of the Z fighters actually got killed by the Cell Jrs. 16 was the only one who died and that (plus his speech) provided the trigger for Gohan. If Krillin or Piccolo had died I'm pretty sure that would have done the job too but 16 was the one chosen and imo it was executed well. Not only was 16 only victim but he was also the most helpless one there since he'd been reduced to nothing but a head, at least the others could fight back but in 16's state he was far more sympathetic. I honestly don't think the moment would have improved if a Cell jr had killed one of the Z fighters (guys who've previously died in battle with little to no consequence) nor do I think any of them had any words of wisdom to give Gohan, since they either didn't know or care about his hidden power. It had to be someone outside the group.

At the end of the day the moment gave 16 a great send off and, for reasons I explained before, it worked on an emotional level for the audience. Your suggested alternative of killing a friend wouldn't have improved the drama imo and would have only been a repeat of Krillin's death on Namek. The complaints seem like nitpicking to me.

All we knew about #16 prior to moment is that kinda liked birds. That's it.

If that's all you got from his character then you missed the point entirely.

Hell, didn't #16 state he would still kill Goku if they were successful in defeating Cell? So that whole "#16 cares about all living things" characteristic kinda feel even more contrived. It's just all one big, fat mess, in my opinion.

All he did is remind them what he was created to do. Like I mentioned before, he defied his programming and did nothing evil so you're blowing this was out of proportion.

[Kid Buu]

I think my problem with that whole #16 scene is that it isn't too different from how Goku became a SSJ through his rage over Krillin's death.

[fadeddreams5]

First off is he 9 or 11? Moving on I used to like this form so much as a kid. When I got older and watched the Japanese version, I got little teared up because of how beautiful it was. But as I said I got older and I finally saw the flaw of this form. What I hated about this form is how people misrepresented it. They kept on saying on how its SO FUCKING BADASS or THIS WAS THE LAST TIME I WAS GOHAN FAN etc. To me those people aren't Gohan fans they just like a certain part of Gohan (hoped that didn't come off harsh). This was supposed to be Gohan OOC but its now represented as this hierarchy of any character in the series. To me its an immature state of Gohan character where lets his anger get the better of him instead mastering it.

But he was badass, and that was the last time I really liked the character. How does that correlate with me only liking a certain part of Gohan? I liked him up until that point, just not after. I like the nerdy little 4 year old who didn't know how to fend for himself, the child who was too scared to raise his fists against the saiyans, the young warrior who fought his hardest on Namek to revive his friends, and the 9 or 11 year old who realized he's not like his father but later understood that that didn't matter because he had to gain responsibility of a power and burden only he possessed.

Yes, SSJ2 changed his personality; he lost control. Guess what? That's the point--he KNEW he was going to lose himself. Hence, he tried to plead with Cell to call the whole thing off. He warned him, time and again. He was scared of tapping into that. When Goku sacrificed himself, he snapped back into reality and realized what a fool he had been to allow himself to lose control when the fate of the planet was at stake. Afterwards, he found himself in a hopeless state of shocked, utterly demoralized by everything that happened within a span of minutes.

Side note: The term "badass" is very commonly applied to characters who beatdown previously established powerful villains or heroes. How can you not view Gohan's annihilation of those juniors as such? The green power ranger against the others, Goku against the Ginyu Force, Ichigo against Aizen, Saitama against the subterraneans or Boros, and so on and so forth. These are characters I find "badass" in their respective scenes. It's a dumb word, but it's important to understand where people come from when they use it instead of thinking they're misinterpreting a character by regarding them as such. SSJ2 Gohan is tough and intimidating. Therefore, he's badass.

You're supposed to hate Gohan after he turns Super Saiyan 2, he's portrayed in a way where that intent is obvious.

This applies more to Gotenks, tbh.

[Doctor.]

This applies more to Gotenks, tbh.

To both.

[DBZAOTA482]

You weren't supposed to hate Gohan as SSJ2... you were supposed to be disturbed by him.

Gotenks was supposed to be fun.

[DanielSSJ]

I don't think that you're supposed to hate Gohan in his Super Saiyan 2 state, just that it's different in an unsettling way, just like with Goku when he first went Super Saiyan. OOC is serious business and seeing Goku or Gohan in a cold, merciless fury is drastically different to how they usually behave, and that is interesting.