18 vs the Boys

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

#18 would have no reason to worry for the audience, because the blast was aimed at the sea, in the opposite direction of civilization. Unless of course she was worried for the fish or something...

[MindForgedManacle]

No, Goten and Trunks were nowhere near #18's level. If you actually pay attention t the fight, she wasn't scared of them, she was surprised that a seemingly normal human turned out to be so strong, and that they were willing to use a massive Ki blast in a tournament with innocent people around. Recall, #18 was leagues ahead of SSJ Vegeta during the Android Saga, and even then she held back much of her strength to toy with Vegeta back then.

Overall, you're just forgetting about how fights in Dragon Ball work. People who can use Ki (or in #18's case, "pure energy") are capable of holding back TONS of power. If you watch the fight, as soon as she realizes who Mighty Mask really is, she goes in fearlessly to separate them. SSJ Goten & SSJ Trunks were nowhere near her, nor for that matter, anywhere near Piccolo.

[Darkprince410]

No, Goten and Trunks were nowhere near #18's level. If you actually pay attention t the fight, she wasn't scared of them, she was surprised that a seemingly normal human turned out to be so strong, and that they were willing to use a massive Ki blast in a tournament with innocent people around. Recall, #18 was leagues ahead of SSJ Vegeta during the Android Saga, and even then she held back much of her strength to toy with Vegeta back then.

Before Trunks even fired off the blast, she knew who they were, so her shock over the power of the blast wasn't because she had no idea who was firing it. She outright said that she knew who Mighty Mask really was the moment that the boys transformed, which was prior to him firing off the blast, and then was shocked at how powerful the blast (and by extension, the boys) were, despite that the blast itself was intentionally restrained.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2
Context: as Trunks turns Super Saiyan and prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
No.18: “…I see…Super Saiyan, huh?...I finally know your identity, boys…”
Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

Besides, if she was so vastly superior to them, as you claim, why resort to disqualifying them by using a ki-enzan that, if they hadn't tried avoiding it the way they did, would have killed them if it made contact. If they were weaker than Ssj Vegeta during the early Cell Saga, as you're suggesting, then she would have had absolutely no trouble in just rushing them and knocking them unconscious, but instead, she goes for an ultimately dangerous gamble of a tactic in hopes of disqualifying them, but could have just as easily killed them. Her doing that speaks of desperation, that she had no other alternative in winning.

[AvatarReiko]

She can't kill anyone and has to figure out how much power she can use to incapacitate this abnormally strong Mighty Mask weirdo without splattering him across the arena.

Around the same amount of power it would take to KO somone of Android Saga Vegeta's level--an oppenent she has fought. Besides, she does not need to pound them until they are down. She could have simply done what 17 did to Tien and choked them into a KO or submission. But she couldn't, because they did not allow her. Ultimately, she was unable to overpower/subjegate Mightey Mask, which strongly indicates that boys are close to her.

She appears completely nonchalant for the entire fight, and doesn't show any signs of worry until Trunks fires that Super Saiyan-powered blast. Only then does she realize she's outmatched.

This is 18 we're talking about here. Her reaction to almost everything in life is "meh"

Considering that #18 didn't know who she was fighting, we have to assume that she thought that she was fighting a human and thus that she was holding back a lot.

And boys were severely handicapped the entire time, so both parties are sqaure.

. SSJ Goten & SSJ Trunks were nowhere near her, nor for that matter, anywhere near Piccolo.

If that were the case, she would have had absolutely no trouble beating them. Holding back or not. One shot.

[MindForgedManacle]

Before Trunks even fired off the blast, she knew who they were, so her shock over the power of the blast wasn't because she had no idea who was firing it. She outright said that she knew who Mighty Mask really was the moment that the boys transformed, which was prior to him firing off the blast, and then was shocked at how powerful the blast (and by extension, the boys) were, despite that the blast itself was intentionally restrained.

Okay? The point I made was that #18 was shocked because the boys were using that level of attack while there were tons of normal humans around, where people could get hurt. It's the same thing Trunks did in his fight with Goten, which also shocked Gohan and Krillin for the exact same reason.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2
Context: as Trunks turns Super Saiyan and prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
No.18: “…I see…Super Saiyan, huh?...I finally know your identity, boys…”
Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

Besides, if she was so vastly superior to them, as you claim, why resort to disqualifying them by using a ki-enzan that, if they hadn't tried avoiding it the way they did, would have killed them if it made contact. If they were weaker than Ssj Vegeta during the early Cell Saga, as you're suggesting, then she would have had absolutely no trouble in just rushing them and knocking them unconscious, but instead, she goes for an ultimately dangerous gamble of a tactic in hopes of disqualifying them, but could have just as easily killed them. Her doing that speaks of desperation, that she had no other alternative in winning.

Yes and she had no trouble. You're confusing the anime depiction with the manga one. In the manga, Goten and Trunks *never* do anything impressive against #18, as they transform to Super Saiyan within 2 or 3 pages of the fight starting. They ARE much weaker than Vegeta was when he fought #18. The reason she used Ki-enzan was because she was interested in wining the prize money, not fighting. #18 is't like Goten, she's clearly adept at using her energy attacks, so there's gonna be a lot less risk when she uses techniques.

[Darkprince410]

Okay? The point I made was that #18 was shocked because the boys were using that level of attack while there were tons of normal humans around, where people could get hurt. It's the same thing Trunks did in his fight with Goten, which also shocked Gohan and Krillin for the exact same reason.

Yes and she had no trouble. You're confusing the anime depiction with the manga one. In the manga, Goten and Trunks *never* do anything impressive against #18, as they transform to Super Saiyan within 2 or 3 pages of the fight starting. They ARE much weaker than Vegeta was when he fought #18. The reason she used Ki-enzan was because she was interested in wining the prize money, not fighting. #18 is't like Goten, she's clearly adept at using her energy attacks, so there's gonna be a lot less risk when she uses techniques.

Nothing about her reaction indicated that she was fearful of how powerful the blast was because of the people nearby, but solely by how powerful the blast itself was. If she were stronger than they were, especially by the degree you're suggesting, why didn't she simply deflect the blast skyward or something? If her only fear of the blast was because of what danger it posed to the Budoukai audience, then there's no reason for her not to have deflected or redirected it away. Instead, she dodged it, indicating she saw it was a risk to herself.

You do realize that a ki-enzan is the "Destructo Disk", right? There's no level of control she has over the technique to where it wouldn't have killed them if it had connected solidly, so why use such a dangerous move at them if she were able to simply just charge in and one shot them, as you're suggesting she would have been powerful enough to do. Again, her action speaks of desperation, that she saw that using a dangerous technique like that was her only means of getting past them.

Besides, the rest of the content within the manga points to them being right up there with the adults in terms of power. Gohan felt that he was soon to be outstripped by the boys if he didn't start training again, and Vegeta, during his test of Trunks' capabilities, was having a considerable difficulty in dodging and defending himself from Trunks blows. Considering that we've seen a gap of ~50% is enough to allow one person to effortlessly and easily dodge attacks, for Trunks to give Vegeta that much difficulty points to him being at least half as strong as Vegeta is. Then, consider that Vegeta's reactionary punch to Trunks only managed to make his face red for a bit, only to have it be shaken off within moments.

[Kaboom]

I feel like the biggest point I was trying to make was glossed over... the fact that Eighteen still didn't show any concern even when Goten and Trunks first transformed. She's aware of what Super Saiyan is, and even if she doesn't know all the details she still knows that it grants a substantial power boost. She might not be able to sense ki yet at this point, but if the boys in base were already fighting even close to equally with her full power, I highly doubt she'd still be so unafraid when they went gold.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

This excuse is getting old. Android #18 wasn't worried for the crowd because the blast was aimed at the opposite direction of civilization. Unless #18 did something stupid like moving in front of the crowd or civilization, then the kids would have no reason to aim their next blast at civilization.

Not only that, but if she truly felt that they were threatening the crowd (more specifically, the crowd with her daughter in it) would she not scold Goten and Trunks for the recklessness instead of saying "I'm going to win this!"?

I'm not arguing anything about their base power, but as Super Saiyans the kids clearly exceed Android #18, greatly.

[rereboy]

And boys were severely handicapped the entire time, so both parties are sqaure.

We have no basis to assume that their handicap compensates perfectly for exactly how much she was holding back.

[Tectorman]

This excuse is getting old. Android #18 wasn't worried for the crowd because the blast was aimed at the opposite direction of civilization. Unless #18 did something stupid like moving in front of the crowd or civilization, then the kids would have no reason to aim their next blast at civilization.

Not only that, but if she truly felt that they were threatening the crowd (more specifically, the crowd with her daughter in it) would she not scold Goten and Trunks for the recklessness instead of saying "I'm going to win this!"?

I'm not arguing anything about their base power, but as Super Saiyans the kids clearly exceed Android #18, greatly.

One of the boys, Goten, does not have sufficient control over his blasts to avoid hitting a building, and that was under a pause in the fight where Trunks did nothing to pressure him. This is just a guess, but I operate under the assumption that 18 didn't think that Goten had spent the past hour doing emergency control training to vastly improve to the point where he could be safely assumed to have perfect control over his ki blasts.

The other, Trunks, is only slightly stronger than him. So of course, 18 would assume that even though Trunks is only slightly ahead of Goten in terms of strength, that it must follow for Trunks to be disproportionately better trained and be perfectly able to control his energy blasts even under adverse conditions, right? 'Cause that's what somehow makes sense?

Not to me. The only line of thought for 18 that makes any sense to me is "Goten can't even divert his energy blasts. Trunks is barely stronger. Can I really take the chance of assuming Trunks's skill is so much greater?"

As for the blast hitting the ocean, yes. THAT shot hit the ocean. The phrase "Let's bombard her", IMO, has never been associated with careful and deliberate action. So relying on the ocean or the sky to be behind her if/when the fight gets frenetic and fast-paced is just not something 18 can count on.

As for her choice of phrase of "I'm going to win this" over scolding them for their recklessness, doesn't such an assertion indicate they're not so greatly exceeding her.

And lastly, you're assuming that her reaction is in connection with what they're doing right now, as opposed to her realizing the implications of their having this power as it relates to the last few years.

They are on her level. I don't think anyone in-universe is under the impression that they just woke up one day with planet-buster power. Ergo, whatever they've been doing to get that strong, they've been doing it for a while, steadily getting stronger and stronger. And they got this strong before they demonstrated the ability to control it, at least in Goten's case. I.e., these irresponsible kids practically have a button they can use to nuke the Earth, they've likely had it for years, and they've been playing around with it this whole time. So if 18 was under the impression that everyone living on Earth with planet-buster power was at least an adult with the proper presence of mind to understand and respect that power, then being forcibly introduced to two kids also with that much power is very much shocking. How many bullets did she and her loved ones dodge by a miracle without even knowing it?

Those kids, even at SSJ, don't have to be anywhere near her level for her to be shocked at those implications. Though yes, as I said before, I do think they are near her level (at least Trunks is, somewhere between 6/7 and 9/8 of her power).

[Darkprince410]

Not to me. The only line of thought for 18 that makes any sense to me is "Goten can't even divert his energy blasts. Trunks is barely stronger. Can I really take the chance of assuming Trunks's skill is so much greater?"

As for the blast hitting the ocean, yes. THAT shot hit the ocean. The phrase "Let's bombard her", IMO, has never been associated with careful and deliberate action. So relying on the ocean or the sky to be behind her if/when the fight gets frenetic and fast-paced is just not something 18 can count on.

She's already seen before, during the boys' ki blast "testing" during their Budoukai match, that Trunks has superb skill in diverting ki blasts away from the general population.

They didn't mention anything about "let's bombard her" or anything like that. All they said was a single kiai cannon, and that was it.

[Tectorman]

Not to me. The only line of thought for 18 that makes any sense to me is "Goten can't even divert his energy blasts. Trunks is barely stronger. Can I really take the chance of assuming Trunks's skill is so much greater?"

As for the blast hitting the ocean, yes. THAT shot hit the ocean. The phrase "Let's bombard her", IMO, has never been associated with careful and deliberate action. So relying on the ocean or the sky to be behind her if/when the fight gets frenetic and fast-paced is just not something 18 can count on.

She's already seen before, during the boys' ki blast "testing" during their Budoukai match, that Trunks has superb skill in diverting ki blasts away from the general population.

They didn't mention anything about "let's bombard her" or anything like that. All they said was a single kiai cannon, and that was it.

My point is that that's exactly what it was: "testing". In between Goten dodging Trunks's blast and Trunks making the blast divert away from the audience, what did Goten do to pressure Trunks? Zilch. In between Trunks dodging Goten's blast and Goten trying to change its path, what did Trunks do to pressure Goten? Zilch, and he still couldn't divert it. And Trunks showed himself to be barely stronger than that. On that one public display of their strength and skill, how would 18 go from "Trunks is barely stronger than Goten" to "Trunks is so much more skilled that even though I haven't seen anything to indicate this, I can safely assume him to be able to control his energy blasts even while pressured"?

DBZ Ch. 259, page 12. First panel: explosion as seen by the announcer. Second panel: Hercule's reaction. Third panel: Trunks: "Fooey! I missed!". Goten: "Let's bombard her!"

[MindForgedManacle]

Nothing about her reaction indicated that she was fearful of how powerful the blast was because of the people nearby, but solely by how powerful the blast itself was. If she were stronger than they were, especially by the degree you're suggesting, why didn't she simply deflect the blast skyward or something? If her only fear of the blast was because of what danger it posed to the Budoukai audience, then there's no reason for her not to have deflected or redirected it away. Instead, she dodged it, indicating she saw it was a risk to herself.

She wasn't fearful for herself. Her shock was from the fact that they were so powerful and willing to use such power, while innocents were around, and unable to control it very well (especially Goten). She herself acknowledges that she didn't expect the blast to be so fast. Again, we can't forget how fights work in DB. Characters rarely start with their maximum output, they usually have to raise up how much of their power they are using.

You do realize that a ki-enzan is the "Destructo Disk", right? There's no level of control she has over the technique to where it wouldn't have killed them if it had connected solidly, so why use such a dangerous move at them if she were able to simply just charge in and one shot them, as you're suggesting she would have been powerful enough to do. Again, her action speaks of desperation, that she saw that using a dangerous technique like that was her only means of getting past them.

I'm well ware of what the technique is. The entire point of using the technique was to force 2 inexperienced fighters, Goten and Trunks, to slip up and disqualify themselves. Trunks was sitting on top of Goten. Once #18 realized this, it was obvious that they weren't going to be able to dodge everything gracefully without revealing themselves and giving #18 the win. You;re misunderstanding her intentions: #18 isn't there to fight, Goten and Trunks are. She's there for the money and that's it, so it makes sense for her to try and win ASAP.

Besides, the rest of the content within the manga points to them being right up there with the adults in terms of power. Gohan felt that he was soon to be outstripped by the boys if he didn't start training again, and Vegeta, during his test of Trunks' capabilities, was having a considerable difficulty in dodging and defending himself from Trunks blows. Considering that we've seen a gap of ~50% is enough to allow one person to effortlessly and easily dodge attacks, for Trunks to give Vegeta that much difficulty points to him being at least half as strong as Vegeta is. Then, consider that Vegeta's reactionary punch to Trunks only managed to make his face red for a bit, only to have it be shaken off within moments.

That was Goku that said that. But regardless, the point was that they were so strong for their age that they could catch the adults soon. That doesn't mean they were actually close to the adults' levels at that moment, it just means that the boys could clearly gain higher power levels with greater ease than the adults could. In fact, that was basically what Gohan said when he saw Goten transform.
As for the Vegeta Trunks scene, I always saw that as Vegeta underestimating Trunks, not that Trunks' SSJ was ~50% of Vegeta's SSJ. Considering how powerful Vegeta's SSJ got in the Cell Saga (FAR above #18 and Semi-Perfect Cell) and how much below #18 Trunks was, we can safely say that Trunk's SSJ isn't ~50% of Vegeta's SSJ.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

No, it was Gohan that said that.

#18 wanted to win the prize money. She disqualified the kids because they were in the way of her doing that. Nothing to do with the crowd.

[MindForgedManacle]

Unless we're thinking of different statements, it was definitely Goku who said it:

https://youtu.be/ivqj_ybrJF0?t=9m8s

[ekrolo2]

Unless we're thinking of different statements, it was definitely Goku who said it:

https://youtu.be/ivqj_ybrJF0?t=9m8s

Goku says nothing of the sort in the manga, Gohan is the only one who says that the boys are gaining up to him. All he says during the Trunks vs Goten fight is that they're pretty good and shows surprise at them both being Super Saiyans.

[Darkprince410]

She wasn't fearful for herself. Her shock was from the fact that they were so powerful and willing to use such power, while innocents were around, and unable to control it very well (especially Goten). She herself acknowledges that she didn't expect the blast to be so fast. Again, we can't forget how fights work in DB. Characters rarely start with their maximum output, they usually have to raise up how much of their power they are using.

Except, for starters, nothing about what she says suggests that she was fearful for the audience. The blast went safely into the ocean, yet she was still scared by how "outrageous" their power is. Besides, this is #18. She isn't like the others in where she needs to power up or anything like that. Her issue is with suppressing her power, which is why she found it difficult in holding back for the punching machine.

I'm well ware of what the technique is. The entire point of using the technique was to force 2 inexperienced fighters, Goten and Trunks, to slip up and disqualify themselves. Trunks was sitting on top of Goten. Once #18 realized this, it was obvious that they weren't going to be able to dodge everything gracefully without revealing themselves and giving #18 the win. You;re misunderstanding her intentions: #18 isn't there to fight, Goten and Trunks are. She's there for the money and that's it, so it makes sense for her to try and win ASAP.

No, I'm not misunderstanding her intentions. I'm saying that her actions to beat/disqualify them still don't suggest that she was stronger than them. If she were more powerful than they were, especially by the degree you're saying, then she could easily render them unconscious in a single blow. Yet, instead, she threw a highly dangerous attack at them which would have potentially killed them had it connected, strongly suggesting she had no other means of winning. She couldn't have calculated that they'd dodge it safely, and essentially just gambled on the chance that they would.

That was Goku that said that. But regardless, the point was that they were so strong for their age that they could catch the adults soon. That doesn't mean they were actually close to the adults' levels at that moment, it just means that the boys could clearly gain higher power levels with greater ease than the adults could. In fact, that was basically what Gohan said when he saw Goten transform.

No, it was Gohan who said that after having sparred with Goten.

Chapter: 427 (DBZ 233), P12.4-6
Context: after Gohan and Goten spar a little bit
Goten: “But Trunks is even stronger than me. We play-fight together!”
Gohan: “Really!? That’s how you guys have been playing?...*thinking* If I’m not careful, I’ll be outstripped…by these little squirts…”

Besides, you have the Daizenshuu indicating that Goten's battle power is equal to that of Gohan's.

From Daizenshuu 2:

By virtue of being Goku's son, Goten possesses a battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan. On top of being able to unleash a startling amount of power in even his normal state, he can easily transform into a Super Saiyan. Furthermore, he merges with Trunks through a technique known as Fusion.

As for Vegeta, no. He could readily sense how powerful Trunks was at that point, so there's no way he could underestimate him in terms of power. And no, everything shown, both in the manga and the databooks point to Trunks and Goten being right behind the adults, not weaker than #18.

[MindForgedManacle]

[
Except, for starters, nothing about what she says suggests that she was fearful for the audience. The blast went safely into the ocean, yet she was still scared by how "outrageous" their power is. Besides, this is #18. She isn't like the others in where she needs to power up or anything like that. Her issue is with suppressing her power, which is why she found it difficult in holding back for the punching machine.

Yes but again this is a fight. Why would #18 think that Trunks/Goten would only use a single blast? That would be a nonsense position to take. As for the punching machine, she obviously did suppress her power, which is why the machine wasn't destroyed. The point was that she didn't suppress it enough (she didn't even score the highest of the Z-Fighters did she?).

No, I'm not misunderstanding her intentions. I'm saying that her actions to beat/disqualify them still don't suggest that she was stronger than them. If she were more powerful than they were, especially by the degree you're saying, then she could easily render them unconscious in a single blow. Yet, instead, she threw a highly dangerous attack at them which would have potentially killed them had it connected, strongly suggesting she had no other means of winning. She couldn't have calculated that they'd dodge it safely, and essentially just gambled on the chance that they would.

Those 2 were inexperienced fighters. Sure she could've knocked them unconscious, but you could say that about lots of fights. Why didn't Frieza immediately knock GOku unconscious when he was holding back a ridiculous amount of power? Or Vegeta when he fought Semi-Perfect Cell? You're taking plot points which occurred mostly for decisions made by Toriyama, and imbuing them with too much in-universe significance, all the while ignoring that you can't hold that position consistently with the series.
Yes she threw a highly dangerous attack, but why couldn't she have calculated that they would safely dodge? Trunks/Goten are fast, and the Ki-enzan is not a particularly large attack. The whole point was to make those 2 slip up and disqualify themselves, which clearly happened.

No, it was Gohan who said that after having sparred with Goten.

Chapter: 427 (DBZ 233), P12.4-6
Context: after Gohan and Goten spar a little bit
Goten: “But Trunks is even stronger than me. We play-fight together!”
Gohan: “Really!? That’s how you guys have been playing?...*thinking* If I’m not careful, I’ll be outstripped…by these little squirts…”

Ah, you're right, my mistake. However, you're own quote refutes your next point about the Daizenshuu. Saying "I WILL be outstripped" means that Goten isn't on his level yet, power level wise.

Besides, you have the Daizenshuu indicating that Goten's battle power is equal to that of Gohan's.

From Daizenshuu 2:

By virtue of being Goku's son, Goten possesses a battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan. On top of being able to unleash a startling amount of power in even his normal state, he can easily transform into a Super Saiyan. Furthermore, he merges with Trunks through a technique known as Fusion.

This is an example of why you have to take the Daizenshuu with a grain of salt. Let's think about this logically, and take what the Daizenshuu 2 says at face value as you're doing:
Okay, we know that, according to Goten, Trunks is a little stronger than Goten. Well, the Daizenshuu was that Goten has equal battle power to Gohan. Well that necessitates that Trunks was a little stronger than Gohan was? I don't recall the Daizeshuu 2 suggesting that at all, but I could be wrong.
Do you think Trunks was stronger than Gohan? If not, then I don't think it makes any sense to accept the bit you quoted.

As for Vegeta, no. He could readily sense how powerful Trunks was at that point, so there's no way he could underestimate him in terms of power. And no, everything shown, both in the manga and the databooks point to Trunks and Goten being right behind the adults, not weaker than #18.

Let's walk through this again. #18 was stronger than Vegeta's initial SSJ, right? And Vegeta massively improved his SSJ with his 2 trips to the ROSAT, correct? He was well above Semi-Perfect Cell after his first time there, and he went in again.

Okay, so you're claim is that Trunks/Goten are still "right behind the adults". If that's true, what should we see in the series? We should see Trunks or Goten alone be strong enough to dominate #18, because you're saying those 2 are near the adult Saiyans' power levels. But they don't dominate #18, nor did she seem to think they would dominate her. The only evidence you have is her shock at their level of attack, but based on the developments in the Cell Saga, you're argument makes no sense to me.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Gohan's quote in no way clashes with the Daizenshuu statement.

When they say "outstripped", it means left in the dust. Piccolo said Vegeta and Nappa "outstripped" Raditz once he saw their power. If Goten is close to Gohan in power at that point, it only makes sense that he'll be surpassed if they continued to train while he didn't.

Just going by straight-up feats, #18 thought Vegeta and Future Trunks' were weak enough to blink at, while she made it a point to dodge an intentionally held-back blast rather than tank it. That alone shows Kid Trunks' blast had far greater power than those two. Heck, she even says they had outrageous power and that was far from their best.

[MindForgedManacle]

In the Raditz case, Nappa and (especially) Vegeta are quite a bit stronger than Raditz. Regardless, I'm open to the possibility that those 2 are near or at the level Vegeta & Goku were at that point in the Android Saga. My real issue is that if we think that they're near Gohan, Vegeta and Goku's level in the Buu Saga, we're left with some odd consequences that seem contradictory:

-The Daizenshuu 2 says "Goten possesses a battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan". So this entails that Gohan is equal to Goten (Daizenshuu) and yet still stronger than Trunks (who's a bit stronger than Goten). Clear contradiction if we take the Daizenshuu at face value. Either that or Kid Trunks is stronger than Gohan, which we don't have any real reason to believe (in my opinion anyway).

-Goten and Trunks are above Semi-Perfect Cell's level and maybe close to Perfect Cell's. Goku & Gohan, as FPSSJ's, were somewhat below Perfect Cell. Darkprince410 seems to think SSJ Trunks is comparable to SSJ Vegeta because of that scene in the gravity chamber. That would have to put SSJ Trunks somewhere around that same range of Semi-Perfect to Perfect Cell power level. Should be believe this? If they were that strong, they would individually be able to trash #18 immediately as Super Saiyans, yet that didn't happen. To be fair, the fight ended quickly.

Overall, it just doesn't make sense to me.