18 vs the Boys

[AvatarReiko]

A lot of people claim that the boys are weaker than 18 and that she was holding back. This argument seems kind of flawed. Her objective was the win the fight. For someone who really wanted the prize money, It makes absolutely zero sense for her to needlessly drag it out when she could have simply gone for the KO. This is not someone who enjoys the thrill of a fight(cough, couch,Goku). It is out of character. The fact that it did drag out for as long as it did speaks volumes for the boy's strength and shows that they can challenge her. Ultimately, she only won because she unmasked them. We don't actually know how much they closed the gap by going SSJ since they never got the chance to fight her in that state.

It is also highly doubtful that she thought "Mightey Mask" was regular human, as some people often argue. It is common sense that a regular human would have gotten OHKO'd. They simply fact that they can block and react to her attacks should have completely cleansed that impression from her mind.

This is just my own view on the fight and I am not trying to pass it off as fact or claiming that boys are stronger than her(albeit, I do believe they easily rival her as SSJs). I am kinda just trying play devil's advocate.

[Khin]

It was exactly opposite.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2
Context: as Trunks prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
No.18: “…I see…Super Saiyan, huh?...I finally know your identity, boys…”
Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

Piccolo also states that the Kids are there only hope.Implying that the kids are already above Piccolo.

Chapter: 468 (DBZ 274), P12.7
Piccolo: “These two are our only hope…! Th-though it’s a faint hope…”
Note: this is before Fusion is mentioned

[DBZAOTA482]

The boys were depicted as fighting evenly with #18 only struggling to keep up because they were essentially crippled. Then when they became SSJ they were worried about her safety with a mere ki blast suggesting they had to hold back a fuck ton in order not to do serious harm to her and even then, said ki blast was enough to make her fear for her life and resort to desperate measures to end the match quickly.

I believed they were on par with her at base level but massively above her at SSJ level.

[rereboy]

I believed they were on par with her at base level but massively above her at SSJ level.

Since Gohan was weaker than he was at the Cell games, if the kids were as strong in their base as #18, then they would be stronger than SSJ Gohan with their SSJ, unless you believe that SSJ Gohan at the Cell games was more than 50 times stronger than #18, which doesn't seem probable to me.

[apex_pretador]

Actually, anywhere from namek goku to CG goku can work for kids.
But what is more likely is that they are below CG future trunks , but above super vegeta (vs semi cell). I think they never went all out vs #18, while she did went all out after they turned super saiyans. Mighty mask is also a bit of handicap.

[DBZAOTA482]

I believed they were on par with her at base level but massively above her at SSJ level.

Since Gohan was weaker than he was at the Cell games, if the kids were as strong in their base as #18, then they would be stronger than Gohan with their SSJ, unless you believe that SSJ Gohan at the Cell games was more than 50 times stronger than #18, which doesn't seem probable to me.

It seems likely to me. The gains that the Saiyans made from the RoSaT were HUGE and even though Gohan was weakened from his CG self, he was still strong enough to give an opponent that's comparable to Cell trouble yet Goten was on par with said Gohan.

I'd say the kids are almost as strong as Goku was during the Cell Games.

[rereboy]

It seems likely to me. The gains that the Saiyans made from the RoSaT were HUGE and even though Gohan was weakened from his CG self, he was still strong enough to give an opponent that's comparable to Cell trouble yet Goten was on par with said Gohan.

I'd say the kids are almost as strong as Goku was during the Cell Games.

But that only works if you believe that Goku was more than 50 times stronger than #18 at the Cell games. Otherwise there's contradiction.

It doesn't seem likely to me because its a massive increase that would have made SSJ2 look puny in comparison.

[Pocket-God]

SSJ Goten and Trunks >> 18 >> Base Goten and Trunks

or something like that.

[TheatreStyleKai]

Well Goten and Trunks managed to hold off Broli as a Super Saiyan for little while, so I suppose there's that.

[Tectorman]

I've got Beginning-Buu-Saga-SSJ-Trunks at approximately half Android 18 (and Goten slightly below him), and Tournament-SSJ-Trunks at equivalent-to-slightly-above Android 18 (and Tournament Goten slightly below that).

I've mentioned some of this on another thread, but I'll expand here.

1) Trunks "pushing" Vegeta, specifically looking at the Gs.

Spoiler:

It's pretty much established that Vegeta could withstand the 10 Gs of his home planet way back in the Saiyan Saga. So even with just that, factoring in SSJ, Vegeta should be able to treat 500 Gs the same way. That he was sweating in a workout at merely 150 Gs is the beginning of what's telling me that Vegeta in this circumstance should not be assumed to be at full power. Trunks "pushing" Vegeta in this circumstance is just not something I can take to be indicative of, well, anything.

So let's then take into account that Vegeta, three years prior to the Androids Saga, asked Dr. Briefs to build him a 300 G training chamber. While we're never told that he never got to the point where he could handle 300 Gs in Base, one might assume the 300 Gs to be the wall he couldn't overcome. Very well. But even in that circumstance, it should still be plausible for Vegeta to handle 100 Gs by the beginning of the Androids Saga (after all, he started with a higher power level than what Goku had when he traveled to Namek, and he had three years to Goku's week). Which puts Vegeta at SSJ as of the Androids Saga, to say nothing of the Cell Games or the beginning of the Buu Saga, at 5,000 Gs at least. And he's sweating from a workout at merely 150 Gs? As far as I can tell, we don't need a character to say he's not at full power; the Gs are doing it for us. So Trunks is "pushing" a Vegeta who is not at full power. That doesn't mean anything as far as how they legitimately compare.

And that's assuming that Vegeta didn't get to 300 Gs in Base. Assuming that he did accomplish that level of gravity training in Base by the Androids Saga, and factoring in the Cell Games, the seven years since, and SSJ, SSJ Vegeta can easily handle >>15,000 Gs. He was sweating in a workout in less than a percent of that. I just don't see that as anything besides "he's not only not at full power, he's nowhere in the ballpark".

And let's look at Trunks. He can barely handle 150 Gs in Base. So he should only be barely able to handle 7,500 Gs as a SSJ. And if I'm claiming that beginning-Androids-Saga SSJ Vegeta is at approximately twice that (and yes, I call that plausible), then we're looking at Trunks taking a month and training to get slightly over twice as strong in order to become approximate to the Android 18 that defeated his father way back then. Plausible? I think so. Of course, that calls into question how equivalent Tournament-SSJ-Trunks is to Android 18. That's my second point.

But before I get to that, let's address the direct correlation between power levels and SSJ and Gs. Am I claiming that they're directly related? No. I think they're suggestive, sure, but it's also possible that Vegeta training for 300 Gs doesn't automatically translate to being able to withstand 15,000 Gs as a SSJ. After all, the gravity training we've ever seen Gohan do was the 10 Gs of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and he far exceeded what Vegeta could do, even with 300 Gs under his belt. But even if that's the case, we still have the series pointing this guy at 300 Gs in Base and then, when he 's ostensibly much stronger, training with half that at SSJ. And we also have Goku in the afterlife training in Base with eight tons, the equivalent of almost 120 Gs. 150 Gs is just not impressive at this point in the series anymore. So my point about the 150 Gs being an automatic indication that whatever Vegeta's doing in this scene cannot be assumed to be his level best stands.

2) Trunks compared to Android 18 in the Tournament.

Spoiler:

Beerus, operating at 70% of his full power, was able to straight-up withstand the Kamehameha of God-Remnant SSJ Goku who was at the equivalent of Beerus's 60%. Android 18 needing to dodge Trunks's attack should place Trunks at above 6/7 of 18's power. Had the fight gone on (and assuming Trunks not being hampered by the Mighty Mask disguise), Trunks would have done at least better against 18 than Goku did against Beerus.

That said, back in the Saiyan Saga, Vegeta (18,000) fired a blast at Kaiox2 Goku (16,000) that Goku was not entirely successful at dodging. 18, on the other hand, did successfully dodge Trunks's attack, which places Trunks at less than 9/8 of 18's power.

"But Goten told him to not use full power, so he could be way, way, way stronger than 18."

Let's suppose that, for whatever reason, Goku takes an energy blast, suppresses the heck out of it, and then shoots it at someone like Hercule. Could Hercule survive something like that? Well, as long as Goku's suppressing it enough, sure. He's skilled enough that he could hold back to the point of his blast not killing Hercule. Nothing unusual here.

But would it make sense for Goku to then say "Of course this won't kill you. You're Hercule"? No. Of course not. The bulk of the work (bulk? Heck, all of it) being done to ensure Hercule's survival is due to Goku suppressing his energy blast, and Hercule being Hercule is immaterial to the conversation, and need not even be mentioned, lest the reader be misled into thinking that Hercule being Hercule is actually some kind of contributing factor when it really isn't.

And that's what we have with Trunks deciding to go with an energy blast while fighting 18. Before Goten tells him not to use full power, he makes the confident assertion that his blast won't kill 18 because of who and what she is. The implication there is that Android 18 being Android 18 is already sufficient for her to not get killed.

I mean, when I read that scene, the following is not my take-away.

Trunks: "It's not going to kill her. That's Android 18."

Goten: "Make sure not to use full power."

Trunks: "Of course, I'm also going to suppress my power. In fact, I'm way, way, way suppressing my power, which is really the thing that's going to keep her alive, so the fact that that's Android 18 doesn't actually matter, and I don't even know why I brought it up in the first place."

That's not how I read that scene.

For Trunks to assert 18's survival because of who she is the way he did, it has to have meaning. Which means that Android 18 being as powerful as she is is what's doing most of the work of keeping her alive. Which I take to mean that when Trunks says he's not using full power, we're looking at more like 85%, 80%, maybe 75%. However much it is, it still puts Trunks approximate to 18.

So we're looking at:
Beginning-Buu-Saga-Training-SSJ-Trunks
less than
Tournament-SSJ-Trunks
approximate to
Android 18 (considering she's never mentioned to train and her Infinite Energy Engine, I hold her Buu Saga power to be generally no more and no less as her Androids Saga power)
less than
Human-Energy-Saturated-Imperfect-Cell
less than
Suppressed-Semi-Perfect-Cell
less than
Full-Power-Semi-Perfect-Cell
less than
USSJ-Vegeta
less than
Beginning-Buu-Saga-Training-SSJ-Vegeta

Considering that some of those gaps are pretty wide, I find it very hard to consider Trunks to be close to Vegeta. And as I mentioned above, the fact that they're in only 150 Gs when Vegeta should be able to handle way above that tells me that whatever Vegeta's doing, it's not his best.

3) Android 18 allegedly being afraid of Trunks's attack.

Spoiler:

I never read that scene as 18 being in fear for her own life due to that energy blast. Earlier that day, Goten showed himself to have more enthusiasm than skill with regards to energy blasts as he carelessly blasted the top of one of the arena buildings. Had it been a different building, young little seven-year-old Goten could have been guilty of several counts of accidental manslaughter. And then, she's just seen one of the boys (I don't think she knew which of them was sitting on the other's shoulders) casually wreck the nearby ocean floor.

I read that as her being concerned about stray shots hitting innocent bystanders, up to and including her husband and her child. And considering that Trunks's missed shot is followed by the suggestion "Let's bombard her" from Goten-of-the-wrecked-building of all people, I'd say she has fair cause to be concerned about stray shots.

Afraid for their sakes? Oh, I totally buy that. Afraid for her own life? Not so much. (Of course, I do buy her being concerned she might take a serious injury, something she might not want to risk in an event as inconsequential as some tournament.)

The boys are very powerful, just not at the level of their fathers.

[DBZAOTA482]

I've got Beginning-Buu-Saga-SSJ-Trunks at approximately half Android 18 (and Goten slightly below him), and Tournament-SSJ-Trunks at equivalent-to-slightly-above Android 18 (and Tournament Goten slightly below that).

I've mentioned some of this on another thread, but I'll expand here.

1) Trunks "pushing" Vegeta, specifically looking at the Gs.

Spoiler:

It's pretty much established that Vegeta could withstand the 10 Gs of his home planet way back in the Saiyan Saga. So even with just that, factoring in SSJ, Vegeta should be able to treat 500 Gs the same way. That he was sweating in a workout at merely 150 Gs is the beginning of what's telling me that Vegeta in this circumstance should not be assumed to be at full power. Trunks "pushing" Vegeta in this circumstance is just not something I can take to be indicative of, well, anything.

So let's then take into account that Vegeta, three years prior to the Androids Saga, asked Dr. Briefs to build him a 300 G training chamber. While we're never told that he never got to the point where he could handle 300 Gs in Base, one might assume the 300 Gs to be the wall he couldn't overcome. Very well. But even in that circumstance, it should still be plausible for Vegeta to handle 100 Gs by the beginning of the Androids Saga (after all, he started with a higher power level than what Goku had when he traveled to Namek, and he had three years to Goku's week). Which puts Vegeta at SSJ as of the Androids Saga, to say nothing of the Cell Games or the beginning of the Buu Saga, at 5,000 Gs at least. And he's sweating from a workout at merely 150 Gs? As far as I can tell, we don't need a character to say he's not at full power; the Gs are doing it for us. So Trunks is "pushing" a Vegeta who is not at full power. That doesn't mean anything as far as how they legitimately compare.

And that's assuming that Vegeta didn't get to 300 Gs in Base. Assuming that he did accomplish that level of gravity training in Base by the Androids Saga, and factoring in the Cell Games, the seven years since, and SSJ, SSJ Vegeta can easily handle >>15,000 Gs. He was sweating in a workout in less than a percent of that. I just don't see that as anything besides "he's not only not at full power, he's nowhere in the ballpark".

And let's look at Trunks. He can barely handle 150 Gs in Base. So he should only be barely able to handle 7,500 Gs as a SSJ. And if I'm claiming that beginning-Androids-Saga SSJ Vegeta is at approximately twice that (and yes, I call that plausible), then we're looking at Trunks taking a month and training to get slightly over twice as strong in order to become approximate to the Android 18 that defeated his father way back then. Plausible? I think so. Of course, that calls into question how equivalent Tournament-SSJ-Trunks is to Android 18. That's my second point.

But before I get to that, let's address the direct correlation between power levels and SSJ and Gs. Am I claiming that they're directly related? No. I think they're suggestive, sure, but it's also possible that Vegeta training for 300 Gs doesn't automatically translate to being able to withstand 15,000 Gs as a SSJ. After all, the gravity training we've ever seen Gohan do was the 10 Gs of the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, and he far exceeded what Vegeta could do, even with 300 Gs under his belt. But even if that's the case, we still have the series pointing this guy at 300 Gs in Base and then, when he 's ostensibly much stronger, training with half that at SSJ. And we also have Goku in the afterlife training in Base with eight tons, the equivalent of almost 120 Gs. 150 Gs is just not impressive at this point in the series anymore. So my point about the 150 Gs being an automatic indication that whatever Vegeta's doing in this scene cannot be assumed to be his level best stands.

2) Trunks compared to Android 18 in the Tournament.

Spoiler:

Beerus, operating at 70% of his full power, was able to straight-up withstand the Kamehameha of God-Remnant SSJ Goku who was at the equivalent of Beerus's 60%. Android 18 needing to dodge Trunks's attack should place Trunks at above 6/7 of 18's power. Had the fight gone on (and assuming Trunks not being hampered by the Mighty Mask disguise), Trunks would have done at least better against 18 than Goku did against Beerus.

That said, back in the Saiyan Saga, Vegeta (18,000) fired a blast at Kaiox2 Goku (16,000) that Goku was not entirely successful at dodging. 18, on the other hand, did successfully dodge Trunks's attack, which places Trunks at less than 9/8 of 18's power.

"But Goten told him to not use full power, so he could be way, way, way stronger than 18."

Let's suppose that, for whatever reason, Goku takes an energy blast, suppresses the heck out of it, and then shoots it at someone like Hercule. Could Hercule survive something like that? Well, as long as Goku's suppressing it enough, sure. He's skilled enough that he could hold back to the point of his blast not killing Hercule. Nothing unusual here.

But would it make sense for Goku to then say "Of course this won't kill you. You're Hercule"? No. Of course not. The bulk of the work (bulk? Heck, all of it) being done to ensure Hercule's survival is due to Goku suppressing his energy blast, and Hercule being Hercule is immaterial to the conversation, and need not even be mentioned, lest the reader be misled into thinking that Hercule being Hercule is actually some kind of contributing factor when it really isn't.

And that's what we have with Trunks deciding to go with an energy blast while fighting 18. Before Goten tells him not to use full power, he makes the confident assertion that his blast won't kill 18 because of who and what she is. The implication there is that Android 18 being Android 18 is already sufficient for her to not get killed.

I mean, when I read that scene, the following is not my take-away.

Trunks: "It's not going to kill her. That's Android 18."

Goten: "Make sure not to use full power."

Trunks: "Of course, I'm also going to suppress my power. In fact, I'm way, way, way suppressing my power, which is really the thing that's going to keep her alive, so the fact that that's Android 18 doesn't actually matter, and I don't even know why I brought it up in the first place."

That's not how I read that scene.

For Trunks to assert 18's survival because of who she is the way he did, it has to have meaning. Which means that Android 18 being as powerful as she is is what's doing most of the work of keeping her alive. Which I take to mean that when Trunks says he's not using full power, we're looking at more like 85%, 80%, maybe 75%. However much it is, it still puts Trunks approximate to 18.

So we're looking at:
Beginning-Buu-Saga-Training-SSJ-Trunks
less than
Tournament-SSJ-Trunks
approximate to
Android 18 (considering she's never mentioned to train and her Infinite Energy Engine, I hold her Buu Saga power to be generally no more and no less as her Androids Saga power)
less than
Human-Energy-Saturated-Imperfect-Cell
less than
Suppressed-Semi-Perfect-Cell
less than
Full-Power-Semi-Perfect-Cell
less than
USSJ-Vegeta
less than
Beginning-Buu-Saga-Training-SSJ-Vegeta

Considering that some of those gaps are pretty wide, I find it very hard to consider Trunks to be close to Vegeta. And as I mentioned above, the fact that they're in only 150 Gs when Vegeta should be able to handle way above that tells me that whatever Vegeta's doing, it's not his best.

3) Android 18 allegedly being afraid of Trunks's attack.

Spoiler:

I never read that scene as 18 being in fear for her own life due to that energy blast. Earlier that day, Goten showed himself to have more enthusiasm than skill with regards to energy blasts as he carelessly blasted the top of one of the arena buildings. Had it been a different building, young little seven-year-old Goten could have been guilty of several counts of accidental manslaughter. And then, she's just seen one of the boys (I don't think she knew which of them was sitting on the other's shoulders) casually wreck the nearby ocean floor.

I read that as her being concerned about stray shots hitting innocent bystanders, up to and including her husband and her child. And considering that Trunks's missed shot is followed by the suggestion "Let's bombard her" from Goten-of-the-wrecked-building of all people, I'd say she has fair cause to be concerned about stray shots.

Afraid for their sakes? Oh, I totally buy that. Afraid for her own life? Not so much. (Of course, I do buy her being concerned she might take a serious injury, something she might not want to risk in an event as inconsequential as some tournament.)

The boys are very powerful, just not at the level of their fathers.

Trunks is perfectly capable of controlling his ki blasts and #18 launched a ki blast towards the ring when she was in the air so it's not like he overly concerned for the safety of others.

[ekrolo2]

I think 18 was holding back until she realized it was Goten and Trunks. As you said, she's expecting to fight a regular human so her initial attacks were pathetically weak since she has to hold back something fierce or run the risk of killing someone and losing the tournament. She starts taking the fight more seriously when she sees he's holding her off and shows the ability to control ki.

We already know from her fight against Vegeta that she's perfectly capable of gauging someones strength and powering down enough to make it a more even battle.

[DBZAOTA482]

#18 saw Trunks take out Killa like he was nothing. She's aware already he's no ordinary fighter.

[ekrolo2]

#18 saw Trunks take out Killa like he was nothing. She's aware already he's no ordinary fighter.

And Killa is just a human who's PL most likely reaches the low double digits. Even if #18 acknowledges there's something weird about him, that doesn't mean she'll immediately jump to Freeza levels of strength, more likely to Roshi's level then rise from there as Mighty Mask proves himself stronger and stronger.

[DBZAOTA482]

#18 saw Trunks take out Killa like he was nothing. She's aware already he's no ordinary fighter.

And Killa is just a human who's PL most likely reaches the low double digits. Even if #18 acknowledges there's something weird about him, that doesn't mean she'll immediately jump to Freeza levels of strength, more likely to Roshi's level then rise from there as Mighty Mask proves himself stronger and stronger.

#18 specifically commented that Trunks was strong and knowing #18 she has no problems with letting opponents know they're weaker than her. She called Vegeta weak to his face despite complimenting him on having great fighting abilities for an organic being.

[Kaboom]

Eighteen knows what Super Saiyan is and that it greatly increases someone's power. If she was already using her full power/effort to ward off "Mighty Mask" before the kids transformed, then afterwards she looks awfully unconcerned for someone who now knows she's now massively outmatched in power.

Which, among other things, says to me that she was holding back a lot before the kids went Super Saiyan. She can't kill anyone and has to figure out how much power she can use to incapacitate this abnormally strong Mighty Mask weirdo without splattering him across the arena. She appears completely nonchalant for the entire fight, and doesn't show any signs of worry until Trunks fires that Super Saiyan-powered blast. Only then does she realize she's outmatched.

So there's a big difference between the kids' base and Super Saiyan powers, and it seems to me like Eighteen falls somewhere in the middle of it.

[Lord Beerus]

SSJ Goten and Trunks >> 18 >> Base Goten and Trunks

or something like that.

Pretty much. but considering that Base Goten were still able to hold their own, I don't think the gap between #18 and Base Goten and Trunks is that huge.

[rereboy]

Considering that #18 didn't know who she was fighting, we have to assume that she thought that she was fighting a human and thus that she was holding back a lot. Meaning that the boys holding their own against her in base might not mean much at all.

[Tectorman]

I think we're used to most characters using full power or a portion of it, and if it is a portion, that portion being applied uniformly across the board. I.e., Power 50%, Strength 50%, Speed 50%, Durability 50%, etc.

Would that apply to an Android? She could only be applying 0.01% Strength so as not to kill anyone and be disqualified (not that she won't make the threat if it'll help), and still be at Durability 100% so that, even when facing an unknown quantity, she isn't in immediate danger of a loss. And then when the boys reveal themselves as much stronger than a human, she devotes more power to her attacks, while her defense has been at full since the start.

[ekrolo2]

I think we're used to most characters using full power or a portion of it, and if it is a portion, that portion being applied uniformly across the board. I.e., Power 50%, Strength 50%, Speed 50%, Durability 50%, etc.

Would that apply to an Android? She could only be applying 0.01% Strength so as not to kill anyone and be disqualified (not that she won't make the threat if it'll help), and still be at Durability 100% so that, even when facing an unknown quantity, she isn't in immediate danger of a loss. And then when the boys reveal themselves as much stronger than a human, she devotes more power to her attacks, while her defense has been at full since the start.

18 probably can't drop her durability even if she tried being part robot and all. She's likely unique in this respect as opposed to all the other fighters who's durability is directly related to their ki levels so I think what your saying makes sense.