When did liking the dub become acceptable?

[Ree]

I'm okay with skipping episodes mostly because shows like OP have too many of them imo
They could have covered their tracks better but still

[Kuririn Fan]

Fadeddream5
That's what i thought as well when i was a dubbie, but trust me, they are 2 completely different shows. I have seen the real one and now that's the only version for me.

[Hellspawn28]

The Japanese version has cheesy voice acting if we're referring to voices.

I was talking about the English dub voices for both shows. The rest of the Namek saga in 1999 was awful to sit through again.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I'm okay with skipping episodes mostly because shows like OP have too many of them imo
They could have covered their tracks better but still

But skip filler, not vital to the plot episodes.

[Zephyr]

it changed the tone entirely. lol.

Funimation's DBZ most certainly did this.

On one hand, you have the broad strokes. The general WWE type tone that the narrator + OST one-two punch has and the general mickey mousing that removes any and all instances of silence.

On the other hand, you have more specific examples, such as with Goku's initial Super Saiyan 1 and 3 transformation sequences. Removing every ounce of dread and foreboding atmosphere from them in order to make them sound "so badass and epic! xD" is missing the mark by a humongous margin.

The dub just happens to accentuate the action to the extent that it does change the tone entirely.

The original version treats the two anime (DB and Z) as they actually are, one single story that is relatively tonally consistent, when it comes to atmosphere and the like, to the point where the overall style of music used and the narrator are identical. The dub takes the differences that exist between them, and amps them up to the max. It literally feels like you're watching an entirely different show when you're watching the dub. They actually change the musical style and narrator, which does so much more than you realize before you become accustomed to the way that the original version handles the split.

I'm not sure if I'm simply imagining it or not, but it feels like I see a big correlation between those who view DB and Z as completely separate stories, and those who prefer the dub. It certainly helps that the former is generally used to support the latter. If this impression is indeed correct, then it would seem that Funimation has changed the tone to the point where one series with two relatively mildly contrasting halves is now seen as two starkly contrasting series' with a shared universe and character roster. If that's not tremendously altering the tone, on the whole, then I don't know what is.

[Dbzfan94]

it changed the tone entirely. lol.

Funimation's DBZ most certainly did this.

On one hand, you have the broad strokes. The general WWE type tone that the narrator + OST one-two punch has and the general mickey mousing that removes any and all instances of silence.

On the other hand, you have more specific examples, such as with Goku's initial Super Saiyan 1 and 3 transformation sequences. Removing every ounce of dread and foreboding atmosphere from them in order to make them sound "so badass and epic! xD" is missing the mark by a humongous margin.

The dub just happens to accentuate the action to the extent that it does change the tone entirely.

The original version treats the two anime (DB and Z) as they actually are, one single story that is relatively tonally consistent, when it comes to atmosphere and the like, to the point where the overall style of music used and the narrator are identical. The dub takes the differences that exist between them, and amps them up to the max. It literally feels like you're watching an entirely different show when you're watching the dub. They actually change the musical style and narrator, which does so much more than you realize before you become accustomed to the way that the original version handles the split.

I'm not sure if I'm simply imagining it or not, but it feels like I see a big correlation between those who view DB and Z as completely separate stories, and those who prefer the dub. It certainly helps that the former is generally used to support the latter. If this impression is indeed correct, then it would seem that Funimation has changed the tone to the point where one series with two relatively mildly contrasting halves is now seen as two starkly contrasting series' with a shared universe and character roster. If that's not tremendously altering the tone, on the whole, then I don't know what is.

Well I prefer the dub (mostly) and I still view DB and DBZ as one series, but I guess that makes me an exception lol

[Super Sonic]

As time went on, folks got over some things. Similarly, I remember when how the term "Sailor Scouts" used to be really hated by a lot of folks, especially by the dub haters. As time went on, folks didn't mind it so much and I don't hear folks get bent out of shape over it anymore.

[Hellspawn28]

I do find funny if you watch something like Naruto dubbed, people will be like "Turn it off. Put it subbed please". Watch DBZ subbed everyone is like "OMG this sucks so much. Please put it on English". You have fans that feel like that DBZ should be a American series instead.

[fadeddreams5]

it changed the tone entirely. lol.

Funimation's DBZ most certainly did this.

On one hand, you have the broad strokes. The general WWE type tone that the narrator + OST one-two punch has and the general mickey mousing that removes any and all instances of silence.

On the other hand, you have more specific examples, such as with Goku's initial Super Saiyan 1 and 3 transformation sequences. Removing every ounce of dread and foreboding atmosphere from them in order to make them sound "so badass and epic! xD" is missing the mark by a humongous margin.

The dub just happens to accentuate the action to the extent that it does change the tone entirely.

The original version treats the two anime (DB and Z) as they actually are, one single story that is relatively tonally consistent, when it comes to atmosphere and the like, to the point where the overall style of music used and the narrator are identical. The dub takes the differences that exist between them, and amps them up to the max. It literally feels like you're watching an entirely different show when you're watching the dub. They actually change the musical style and narrator, which does so much more than you realize before you become accustomed to the way that the original version handles the split.

I'm not sure if I'm simply imagining it or not, but it feels like I see a big correlation between those who view DB and Z as completely separate stories, and those who prefer the dub. It certainly helps that the former is generally used to support the latter. If this impression is indeed correct, then it would seem that Funimation has changed the tone to the point where one series with two relatively mildly contrasting halves is now seen as two starkly contrasting series' with a shared universe and character roster. If that's not tremendously altering the tone, on the whole, then I don't know what is.

Okay, I take that back. The dub did change the tone of the show a lot. I wasn't referring to the music though. The DVDs and what-not allow you to switch to the Japanese track, IIRC. I meant everything else in comparison to Digimon. =P

As for the story split, I've been over why I feel the split makes sense before. My reasons have nothing to do with the music. Mind you, I don't think they're radically different series. I just feel DBZ is to DB as Shippuden is to Naruto. One storyline (though you could say the same thing about GT and Super), but enough changes in many areas to regard one as a sequel series to the other.

I do find funny if you watch something like Naruto dubbed, people will be like "Turn it off. Put it subbed please". Watch DBZ subbed everyone is like "OMG this sucks so much. Please put it on English". You have fans that feel like that DBZ should be a American series instead.

It makes sense. The Japanese version has men that sound like women! Also, as much as I find it absolutely stupid for any company to ever replace the music of an anime they dub, DBZ's Funimation soundtrack hit home to many, many people. It's the only dubbed anime to manage this, I believe.

Most modern anime is more faithful than stuff from the 90s (not to put DBZ on the same level as Digimon, mind you...), so people really only have the VAs to compare. If they like the sound of Japanese actors more, they will bash the dub. In the case of DBZ, the opposite tends to happen.

[DBZAOTA482]

It's simple. The Japanese purists grew up.

[NitroEX]

I do find it funny how people on Youtube will post comments on how Saban's version of Digimon sucks for being really cheesy and having terrible music. Yet Funimation's DBZ was not much different and people are cool with it?

D-did you really just compare dubbed Digimon to Funimation DBZ?

The former is like a radically different show with one-liners in every single piece of dialogue. Mind you, I'm fond of it, as it can be pretty funny. As for music, the original Japanese show has an amazing soundtrack with some iconic themes, whereas the dub... well, nothing really stands out at all besides the opening theme. No idea what they were thinking when they replaced the OST.

It was common practice for Saban to replace the music for their dubs and make money off music royalties, in fact, Funimation learned the practice from them!

Say what you will about Digimon's US script being bad but as far as music goes it was far from terrible. In my opinion Udi Harpez/Shuki Levy's Digimon score was one of their better works and was a very respectful orchestral score that gave the show a sense of grandeur. Not only did the music sound high budget (unlike the Faulconer midi keyboard stuff) but the US version of Digimon even had it's own insert songs which, again, shows the budget and high production values of the dub.

DBZ's Faulconer soundtrack might have some catchy themes to some but it clearly lacks in production values compared to anything in Digimon. Funi were virtually bankrupt when Saban ended their partnership so it's no surprise they could only afford a no name musician at the time to produce music for the show. I think the success of that soundtrack is largely down to nostalgia amongst DBZ fans who grew up watching it and the fact that it's forever attached to the anime. I mean do you really believe that Faulconer's music would have been able to stand on it's own without DBZ? I highly doubt it would be so renowned today if it had instead been featured on some random US cartoon, if that had been the case literally no one would be talking about it today. In my honest opinion the music in Funimation's DBZ dub (along with the actors involved) rode the coattails of an anime that, let's face it, was bound for glory no matter what Funimation slapped onto it.

Getting back to Digimon for a second, I have a theory as to why the US dub and it's music aren't as fondly remembered by kids from that era. You have to remember that Pokemon was the hot thing with kids at the time and although the success of Pokemon probably helped Digimon in some ways it also likely backfired on them too. Since their show came a little later than Pokemon and shared many similarities in concept, it was bound to be seen by many children as a copycat or knock off, ontop of that you also have the tribalistic mentality people often have of us vs them and this was very much the case with Pokemon fans vs Digimon fans. It wouldn't surprise me if that resentment towards the show left a bad impression for most who watched it and subsequently caused it to be remembered less fondly than it otherwise would have been. That's just a theory though.

I do find funny if you watch something like Naruto dubbed, people will be like "Turn it off. Put it subbed please". Watch DBZ subbed everyone is like "OMG this sucks so much. Please put it on English". You have fans that feel like that DBZ should be a American series instead.

I think this is just a generational thing. Most people's first exposure to DBZ was pre internet so there wasn't really a culture of looking up the Japanese version online, you just waited and watched it on TV like everyone else. As far as I can tell, by the time Naruto came around people were already getting online and doing just that, they weren't waiting for an English version on TV and were getting it straight from the source in it's native language. I wouldn't be surprised if that's the main reason why you have such polarizing opinions for both shows, people tend to favour the version they saw first especially if it holds any nostalgia which DBZ definitely does.

[fadeddreams5]

I think the success of that soundtrack is largely down to nostalgia amongst DBZ fans who grew up watching it and the fact that it's forever attached to the anime. I mean do you really believe that Faulconer's music would have been able to stand on it's own without DBZ? I highly doubt it would be so renowned today if it had instead been featured on some random US cartoon, if that had been the case literally no one would be talking about it today.

I mean, naturally the success of the show gave the soundtrack exposure. If it had been part of some other unknown cartoon, not many people would even know it exists. But I wouldn't say people like it because of the nostalgia either. I listen to that soundtrack, occasionally, because I simply like it. So many people have spent hours making covers on Youtube or creating original electronic pieces similar to that OST because they're passionate about it. My friends who are casual fans have also been caught listening to Vegeta's themes. One friend can't bare to watch Kai because it doesn't have Faulconer. There are people out there who were more fans of the music than the actual show!

Say what you will about Digimon's US script being bad but as far as music goes it was far from terrible. In my opinion Udi Harpez/Shuki Levy's Digimon score was one of their better works and was a very respectful orchestral score that gave the show a sense of grandeur. Not only did the music sound high budget (unlike the Faulconer midi keyboard stuff) but the US version of Digimon even had it's own insert songs which, again, shows the budget and high production values of the dub.

Getting back to Digimon for a second, I have a theory as to why the US dub and it's music aren't as fondly remembered by kids from that era. You have to remember that Pokemon was the hot thing with kids at the time and although the success of Pokemon probably helped Digimon in some ways it also likely backfired on them too. Since their show came a little later than Pokemon and shared many similarities in concept, it was bound to be seen by many children as a copycat or knock off, ontop of that you also have the tribalistic mentality people often have of us vs them and this was very much the case with Pokemon fans vs Digimon fans. It wouldn't surprise me if that resentment towards the show left a bad impression for most who watched it and subsequently caused it to be remembered less fondly than it otherwise would have been. That's just a theory though.

I just want to point out that I like the Digimon dub and loved the show much more than Pokemon as a kid. In fact, I was just watching it with my nephew not too long ago. Some of those one-liners are lol bad (in a good way). But when you compare it and the Japanese version, it's apples and oranges, night and day. Personally, me, and I assume other people who like Faulconer's music, don't take production/budget into consideration in our preferences. Fact of the matter is, I find the Digimon US soundtrack bland, cheesy as **** (hey digimon, hey digimon, champions of the boys and girls!), and out of place a lot (Hey Digimon playing while Myotismon is getting shot by an arrow). But man... the Japanese OST is awesome (Butterfly, Braveheart, Break Up, etc. <3).

Faulconer's music may be low budget midi trash, but I like what I hear. =P

[Super Sonic]

Interesting thing regarding Naruto is a lot of folks who liked its dub watched Digimon and Power Rangers when they were kids. And since a lot of the cast has actors from those shows, they liked the dub for that.

Also from the music view, Voltron's music is better than Go Lion's in my view. Heck in foreign versions they used the Voltron music rather than Go Lion. Then again, it was more popular, so that may be a thing.

[Cipher]

It's simple. The Japanese purists grew up.

Well, it's that and the fact that both versions are readily available now, and new dubbed products are much closer in spirit to the original version. There's just not a lot to be upset about regardless of preference. When it seemed like the dubbed version, radically different as it could be, was going to be just about the only thing readily available stateside, I can see people being more eager to express discontent, you know?

[precita]

It's simple. The Japanese purists grew up.

Well, it's that and the fact that both versions are readily available now, and new dubbed products are much closer in spirit to the original version. There's just not a lot to be upset about regardless of preference. When it seemed like the dubbed version, radically different as it could be, was going to be just about the only thing readily available stateside, I can see people being more eager to express discontent, you know?

But didn't the FUNI DVD's even in 1999/2000 always come with bilingual tracks to begin with? I seem to always recall the Japanese version was included on the dub DVDs even at the start.

So the Japanese version was always there even 16 years ago.

[Hellspawn28]

I recall that the old Funimation DVD's had dubtitles and not good subs.

[Cipher]

It's simple. The Japanese purists grew up.

Well, it's that and the fact that both versions are readily available now, and new dubbed products are much closer in spirit to the original version. There's just not a lot to be upset about regardless of preference. When it seemed like the dubbed version, radically different as it could be, was going to be just about the only thing readily available stateside, I can see people being more eager to express discontent, you know?

But didn't the FUNI DVD's even in 1999/2000 always come with bilingual tracks to begin with? I seem to always recall the Japanese version was included on the dub DVDs even at the start.

So the Japanese version was always there even 16 years ago.

Yeah, but the single releases were hardly an obtainable way of experiencing the series. It took much longer for everything to be available at a reasonable schedule and price. If I recall correctly, some parts just took forever to come out.

When the only easy way to see the whole series was the radically different English dub airing on TV -- changing both dialogue and the soundtrack so that a lot of the original spirit was altered -- it's totally understandable that it would seem more urgent to call out its flaws.

At the time there was no indication the Japanese version would be half as accessible as it is now. To say nothing of FUNimation's recent dubbing efforts minimizing differences between the two versions.

[TheBlackPaladin]

But didn't the FUNI DVD's even in 1999/2000 always come with bilingual tracks to begin with? I seem to always recall the Japanese version was included on the dub DVDs even at the start..

Not at the start. For a while, their releases were edited and dub-only. Actually, I think their first bilingual DVD releases were the three uncut Ocean/Pioneer movies. They didn't start doing bilingual DVD releases for the TV series until the DVD release known as "Ginyu Assault." Barry Watson also vaguely referenced a possible uncut, bilingual DVD release of the TV series using the Ocean cast, but between the context of the question he was asked and how vague his answer was, the general consensus is that he misspoke, misunderstood the question, or both.

Anyway, there were a few interesting tidbits about the "Ginyu Assault" DVD.

-At the time, FUNimation was still trying to "sync up" to the Japanese episodes because the Ocean dub had cut so much out that the episode numbers in the dub did not correspond to the episode numbers in the original Japanese version (a problem that FUNimation would later correct with their eventual re-dub of the first two "seasons"). Eventually they synced up with the Japanese version, but it took a while, so until that happened, you had to select either the Japanese or the English version from the menu ahead of time, because they were on different video tracks.

-The subtitles initially toned down swear words ("Darn" instead of "Damn"), and used dub names ("Krillin" instead of Kuririn"). I don't know at what point this was corrected, but I seem to recall that it was not a problem for long.

-In spite of these minor faults, though, this was the first ever home video release of the original Japanese version of the TV series. Like, ever. At the time, not even Japan had released the TV series on home video. The movies, yes, but not the TV series. Actually, for a while FUNimation was saying they couldn't release the TV series on home video for precisely this reason. They said that Toei had expressed some concerns about reverse-importing.

[TripleRach]

But didn't the FUNI DVD's even in 1999/2000 always come with bilingual tracks to begin with? I seem to always recall the Japanese version was included on the dub DVDs even at the start..

Not at the start. For a while, their releases were edited and dub-only. Actually, I think their first bilingual DVD releases were the three uncut Ocean/Pioneer movies. They didn't start doing bilingual DVD releases for the TV series until the DVD release known as "Ginyu Assault."

Yeah, episodes 1-67 were sub-licensed to Pioneer in heavily edited form. It was impossible to sync the first two dub seasons to the uncut video and Japanese audio. Producing an uncut dub for those episodes was probably not feasible at the time, and there's no way they would have done a sub-only release either. Pioneer's license expiring and Funi releasing the "Ultimate Uncut" Saiyan arc didn't come until a couple years after the Boo arc had been released. And even then, the Ultimate Uncut volumes were never completed.

But that was always a genuine fear from the start. There was a lengthy gap in even getting new episodes on TV in the middle of the Ginyuu mini arc. There was no guarantee we'd ever reach Oob in the US (never mind DB and GT). Even when we first started to get bilingual TV discs, they only came 3 episodes at a time, and they were completely out of order. Despite the popularity of the Cell Games, it ended up being one of the last arcs to be released. The driving school episode was only released in a stealth reprinting of the second "Trunks" volume. And this all spanned about 5 or 6 years, yet we still didn't have Japanese audio completion until a couple years after that with the orange and blue bricks.

Of course there's also the fact that those 3 episode discs were really expensive and difficult for most kids and college students to collect. It was much easier to watch the dub on TV for "free" (if you had parents to pay the cable bill for you). Watching Japanese DB through FUNimation's releases was a dedicated investment, and not the ubiquitous streaming or bargain bin deals that it is nowadays.

[Hellspawn28]

I don't know why didn't do uncut sub title VHS tapes back then? Companies like ADV, U.S. Renditions and Animeigo would do sub and dub VHS tapes. People seem don't know that back then that you would have buy subs before the rise of the DVD market.