GT Power Levels explain DB Super

[LowRyder2005]

I can't pinpoint the reason, yet I find this thread somewhat heartwrenching.

Anyway, the Super 17 saga basically wrecks every Super and GT power scaling: Super Saiyan Goku has better feats than Majuub... who, in the previous saga, has better feats than Super Saiyan 3 Goku. And that's serious.
If that wasn't 'nuff, GT starts off with a Base Goku >= SSJ2 Goku from the Buu Saga (at least; I usually go with the Buu reference as referring to Mr. Buu 'cause it makes much more sense to me from an in-universe perspective, even though TOEI's intent is obviously another).

If you take that in conjunction with official power levels and other statements (Omega Shenron > x10 Syn Shenron; SS4 = X times SSJ3; SSJ3 = 8 times SSJ), it means that from the Baby Saga all the way to the end, characters become possibly hundreds or even thousands of times stronger (at least in Gogeta's case). It's still way beyond anything we've seen in Super, which hints at the same thing (Post-Buu Saga Vegito < Beerus) yet throws some dubious feats in the mix that end up downplaying the statement, like SSJ2 Vegeta being actually around some some low % of Beerus.
Super still has a BIG edge on feats in later episodes though, while GT is pretty poor from start to finish in that regard so... well, that needs to be taken into consideration too.

That being said, I believe that by the end of Super we'll have even crazier stuff than GT's power scaling.

[Lord Frieza]

As many people have pointed out GT and Super are incompatible. For starts they were both made in different eras of anime, GT right on the original series heels and Super a decade later.

The power levels explain nothing. As others have pointed out GT also has very poor power scaling and development, especially after the Baby Arc. After that arc with the exception of one of the dragons all of the people Goku fights are so weak he beats them easily or are so strong they he dosent stand a chance until is power up he gets during his fight with Super Yī Xīng Lóng, making it impossible to get a good reading on if Goku has even gotten any stronger since his fight with Baby. The fact that almost none of the other characters get a good showing aside from owning weaklings only makes the matter worse.

Another problem is SSG. Going by what we know Super's Goku's base line power is much lower then that of his GT counter part at the start of the series. Now before going on we have to talk about SSG and SS4 and which is better. Sorry to say it to the SS4 fans but SSG is far more powerful then SS4, SS4 only grants GT Goku a speculated 10x power up and even then he would still be no match for Beerus as he is weaker then Buu arc Vegito (that is a stated fact from GT's own Prefect Files). SSG on the other hand allows Super's Goku to fight with foe neither GT Goku or a hypothetical Super era Vegito would stand a chance against. Now if the God power had just faded away then this idea would have some weight but it dosent, Goku absorbed the power of SSG drastically increasing his natural power and even allows him to attain the more powerful SSGSS.

Really outside of fanfiction that rewrites everything in GT to make it fit Super the two series will never be compatible unless something happens in Super that would show other wise.

I think of the two series as two possible futures after the Buu arc. In one Goku trains to the natural limit of saiyan power (GT) and in another he meets a foe who pushes him to a level he never knew existed or could have achieved on his own (Super).

[Pocket-God]

Blank >.>

[OWmyDragonBallz]

As many people have pointed out GT and Super are incompatible. For starts they were both made in different eras of anime, GT right on the original series heels and Super a decade later.

The power levels explain nothing. As others have pointed out GT also has very poor power scaling and development, especially after the Baby Arc. After that arc with the exception of one of the dragons all of the people Goku fights are so weak he beats them easily or are so strong they he dosent stand a chance until is power up he gets during his fight with Super Yī Xīng Lóng, making it impossible to get a good reading on if Goku has even gotten any stronger since his fight with Baby. The fact that almost none of the other characters get a good showing aside from owning weaklings only makes the matter worse.

Another problem is SSG. Going by what we know Super's Goku's base line power is much lower then that of his GT counter part at the start of the series. Now before going on we have to talk about SSG and SS4 and which is better. Sorry to say it to the SS4 fans but SSG is far more powerful then SS4, SS4 only grants GT Goku a speculated 10x power up and even then he would still be no match for Beerus as he is weaker then Buu arc Vegito (that is a stated fact from GT's own Prefect Files). SSG on the other hand allows Super's Goku to fight with foe neither GT Goku or a hypothetical Super era Vegito would stand a chance against. Now if the God power had just faded away then this idea would have some weight but it dosent, Goku absorbed the power of SSG drastically increasing his natural power and even allows him to attain the more powerful SSGSS.

Really outside of fanfiction that rewrites everything in GT to make it fit Super the two series will never be compatible unless something happens in Super that would show other wise.

I think of the two series as two possible futures after the Buu arc. In one Goku trains to the natural limit of saiyan power (GT) and in another he meets a foe who pushes him to a level he never knew existed or could have achieved on his own (Super).

Do the perfect files really state that SSJ4 is weaker than Vegetto? I have heard from many others on here that it states that Vegetto and SSJ4 are comparable, and I could have sworn that Kaioshin said that SSJ4 was the largest ki he had ever felt.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Do the perfect files really state that SSJ4 is weaker than Vegetto? I have heard from many others on here that it states that Vegetto and SSJ4 are comparable,

It wasn't the GT Perfect Files, it was a special section listing all of Goku's forms in the GT TV Special Animation Comic. It said that Vegetto's power is perhaps greater than Super Saiyan 4 (Goku was the only Super Saiyan 4 that had appeared at the time that comic was released).

and I could have sworn that Kaioshin said that SSJ4 was the largest ki he had ever felt.

Nope. At least I can't find it anywhere in the GT Strength Checker.

[Hitiro]

Do the perfect files really state that SSJ4 is weaker than Vegetto? I have heard from many others on here that it states that Vegetto and SSJ4 are comparable, and I could have sworn that Kaioshin said that SSJ4 was the largest ki he had ever felt.

It isn't the GT Perfect Files. It's the GT Anime Comic that comes with some information pages, one talking about the various forms Goku has achieved over up until that point. Herms translated the line in question from the Japanese version last month. It says:

[His] power [is] perhaps even stronger than SSJ4?!

Generally this kind of comparison is made to two battle powers fairly close in power to the point that it isn't easy to distinguish which one is greater. SSJ2 Vegeta also received such a comparison in the Boo arc from Piccolo. And from the GT Strength Checker it doesn't seem like the Kaioshin said that SSJ4 was the largest Ki he had ever felt either.

[apex_pretador]

Wtf that does it for me, Gohan had a power level of 1? while that farmer has a freaking PL of 5? that would clear up a lot of things up and confirming the fact a regular human shouldn't be able to have or be able to tap even in a pl of 1.

Gohan was a 4 year old kid, with no training & no exposure to any kind of thread till now, and still his power level increased to 1307 by anger alone.

[apex_pretador]

Anyway, the Super 17 saga basically wrecks every Super and GT power scaling: Super Saiyan Goku has better feats than Majuub... who, in the previous saga, has better feats than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

It is zenkai

If you take that in conjunction with official power levels and other statements

There are no official power levels for GT, neither any multipliers.

(Omega Shenron > x10 Syn Shenron;

Yes, stated

SS4 = X times SSJ3;

Or SS4 = Golden ozaru = 10x SS

SSJ3 = 8 times SSJ),

No way in GT is it possible. SS baby vegeta was thrashing around SS3 goku.
9x SS vegeta was >> SBV 2, who was >> SS3 goku (tail + zenkai)

it means that from the Baby Saga all the way to the end, characters become possibly hundreds or even thousands of times stronger

Or a few times. SS4 goku beyond limits was "equal" to SS vegeta x 10 = SS4 vegeta of super 17 arc.

It's still way beyond anything we've seen in Super, which hints at the same thing (Post-Buu Saga Vegito < Beerus) yet throws some dubious feats in the mix that end up downplaying the statement, like SSJ2 Vegeta being actually around some some low % of Beerus.

We don't know how much vegeta became stronger when he was enraged. Maybe his unbelievable rise in power with whis training & his rage boost are related.

[Lord Frieza]

Do the perfect files really state that SSJ4 is weaker than Vegetto? I have heard from many others on here that it states that Vegetto and SSJ4 are comparable,

It wasn't the GT Perfect Files, it was a special section listing all of Goku's forms in the GT TV Special Animation Comic. It said that Vegetto's power is perhaps greater than Super Saiyan 4 (Goku was the only Super Saiyan 4 that had appeared at the time that comic was released).

Thanks for the fact correction

[Hitiro]

Anyway, the Super 17 saga basically wrecks every Super and GT power scaling: Super Saiyan Goku has better feats than Majuub... who, in the previous saga, has better feats than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

It is zenkai

Zenkai's were stated to not be a thing any more during and after the Cell Games. Or rather characters don't get any significant gains from it any more apart from the one case of Cell. Why would they suddenly come back? This also doesn't explain why Vegeta didn't put up a much better fight because, while he wasn't in charge of his body, it still had a fight with Goku. Surely Vegeta should have had a Zenkai to at least fight at a capable level with Goku. Then there is the whole issue of Vegeta being just as strong as SSJ4 Goku after transforming into a SSJ4 himself. Despite the fact that Vegeta was shown to be vastly weaker than Goku in the previous arc.

There is also the fact that for some reason Pan is stronger than her father who had kept up training according to the GT Perfect Files. She actually managed to dodge and at least land a blow against Rildo while he was in his final form.

[Kuririn Fan]

Yep, zenkais and numbered power levels both disappeared after Freeza arc. Boo even mentions that Gohan didn't get a power up at all after Dende healed him.

[apex_pretador]

Anyway, the Super 17 saga basically wrecks every Super and GT power scaling: Super Saiyan Goku has better feats than Majuub... who, in the previous saga, has better feats than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

It is zenkai

Zenkai's were stated to not be a thing any more during and after the Cell Games.

When was it stated ? All I remember is that no one was pushed to the limit where they'll get a zenkai in the cell games, or even buu arc (before kid buu battle).

Or rather characters don't get any significant gains from it any more apart from the one case of Cell. Why would they suddenly come back? This also doesn't explain why Vegeta didn't put up a much better fight because, while he wasn't in charge of his body, it still had a fight with Goku. Surely Vegeta should have had a Zenkai to at least fight at a capable level with Goku.

Or characters don't get pushed to the point of zenkais.
Zenkais don't follow any logic. Anyways, SS vegeta was (maybe) stronger than majuub , who was around SBV 2 level , i.e. , 2 transformations after SS vegeta + baby. So, he did get a lot stronger.

Then there is the whole issue of Vegeta being just as strong as SSJ4 Goku after transforming into a SSJ4 himself. Despite the fact that Vegeta was shown to be vastly weaker than Goku in the previous arc.

I'm fine with it. SS4 (initial) = 10x SS = golden ozaru , but it might be like a potential limit (like SS3 ??).

There is also the fact that for some reason Pan is stronger than her father who had kept up training according to the GT Perfect Files. She actually managed to dodge and at least land a blow against Rildo while he was in his final form.

Gohan is maxed out.

Yep, zenkais and numbered power levels both disappeared after Freeza arc. Boo even mentions that Gohan didn't get a power up at all after Dende healed him.

Gohan was already maxed out, he was already not only as strong as his full potential, but even stronger than that. I'm sure neither goku nor vegeta maxed out.

[Hitiro]

When was it stated ? All I remember is that no one was pushed to the limit where they'll get a zenkai in the cell games, or even buu arc (before kid buu battle).

It was stated by Boo when he was fighting Gohan and Dende healed him. He noted that Gohan's power hadn't changed. And there were plenty of characters pushed to the limit even prior to the Cell Games that didn't get any boosts. Vegeta got decimated twice during this time yet nothing was noted or indicated that he gained a power-up.

Or characters don't get pushed to the point of zenkais.
Zenkais don't follow any logic. Anyways, SS vegeta was (maybe) stronger than majuub , who was around SBV 2 level , i.e. , 2 transformations after SS vegeta + baby. So, he did get a lot stronger.

That makes no sense. Gohan got a Zenkai just from a few blows from Freeza's second form. In comparison Vegeta in GT had battles that pushed his body much much further. I would even go as far to say that some of his fights were more taxing then a few Zenkai's he had received in Z. Definitely more than his fight with Zarbon and his fight with Recoom. Both giving him a sizeable Zenkai. Likewise Goku in GT had less strenuous fights in comparison to Vegeta most of the time yet his power seems to fluctuate. When he thought the Sigma force he looked like he was at a disadvantage the first time. Then the second fight he was absolutely dominating them yet in the first fight he didn't really take anything you could say was worth a Zenkai. He took one or two blows and then was put to sleep.

I'm fine with it. SS4 (initial) = 10x SS = golden ozaru , but it might be like a potential limit (like SS3 ??).

That doesn't really make a difference. As if Goku is vastly superior to him in Base then their battle powers are going to be different. For example:

Base Vegeta: 1
Base Goku: 4
SSJ2 Vegeta: 1*100 = 100
Super 17(Initially): 150
SSJ Goku: 4*50 = 200
Super 17(Post Absorb): 350
SSJ4 Vegeta(Hypothetical): 4,000
SSJ4 Goku: 4*(400*10) = 16,000

I used SSJ3 multiplier plus Oozaru multiplier on top for this example. But as you can see Goku is vastly superior to Vegeta.

There is also the fact that for some reason Pan is stronger than her father who had kept up training according to the GT Perfect Files. She actually managed to dodge and at least land a blow against Rildo while he was in his final form.

Gohan is maxed out.

What does this even mean? It literally makes no sense that Gohan would be inferior to his daughter in terms of power especially if he has kept up his training. And if he was somehow maxed out then we would have been told. No explanation is given for him being inferior to his daughter.

Gohan was already maxed out, he was already not only as strong as his full potential, but even stronger than that. I'm sure neither goku nor vegeta maxed out.

Gohan can't be maxed out. He has gone beyond his limits. Limits don't exist for Gohan in the first place. And it would make no sense for the guidebooks to say that Gohan had kept training to become stronger if he literally couldn't get any stronger.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

When was it stated ? All I remember is that no one was pushed to the limit where they'll get a zenkai in the cell games, or even buu arc (before kid buu battle).

It was stated in Daizenshuu 7:

Even after the battle with Freeza, formidable enemies surpassing human knowledge appeared one after the other to face Goku. Though the power-ups received after having wounds healed became small, Goku and co. began using transformations and fusions to increase their battle powers, to the point where they could no longer be measured numerically…

[apex_pretador]

When was it stated ? All I remember is that no one was pushed to the limit where they'll get a zenkai in the cell games, or even buu arc (before kid buu battle).

It was stated by Boo when he was fighting Gohan and Dende healed him. He noted that Gohan's power hadn't changed. And there were plenty of characters pushed to the limit even prior to the Cell Games that didn't get any boosts. Vegeta got decimated twice during this time yet nothing was noted or indicated that he gained a power-up.

1. Vegeta got destroyed by fat buu (or himself) , and then died. He never healed from near death.

2. Vegeta got healed after kid buu fight, by dende. There is no way to know that he got a zenkai boost or not.

3. Gohan is maxed out, atleast post his old kaioshin powerup. He was not just AT his limits, but "far beyond his limits. No one else can do that."

4. Gohan was pushed to near death by fat buu, and he got MUCH stronger by healing + Z sword training (but we will never know how big contribution zenkai had in it).

Or characters don't get pushed to the point of zenkais.
Zenkais don't follow any logic. Anyways, SS vegeta was (maybe) stronger than majuub , who was around SBV 2 level , i.e. , 2 transformations after SS vegeta + baby. So, he did get a lot stronger.

That makes no sense. Gohan got a Zenkai just from a few blows from Freeza's second form. In comparison Vegeta in GT had battles that pushed his body much much further. I would even go as far to say that some of his fights were more taxing then a few Zenkai's he had received in Z. Definitely more than his fight with Zarbon and his fight with Recoom. Both giving him a sizeable Zenkai.

So? Vegeta got incredibly stronger in GT. It can be accounted for zenkais.

Likewise Goku in GT had less strenuous fights in comparison to Vegeta most of the time yet his power seems to fluctuate. When he thought the Sigma force he looked like he was at a disadvantage the first time. Then the second fight he was absolutely dominating them yet in the first fight he didn't really take anything you could say was worth a Zenkai. He took one or two blows and then was put to sleep.

Goku's fight with baby vegeta pushed him to death. He most likely got a zenkai with that (Zenkai + tail put him closer to SBV 2)

I'm fine with it. SS4 (initial) = 10x SS = golden ozaru , but it might be like a potential limit (like SS3 ??).

That doesn't really make a difference. As if Goku is vastly superior to him in Base then their battle powers are going to be different. For example:

Base Vegeta: 1
Base Goku: 4
SSJ2 Vegeta: 1*100 = 100
Super 17(Initially): 150
SSJ Goku: 4*50 = 200
Super 17(Post Absorb): 350
SSJ4 Vegeta(Hypothetical): 4,000
SSJ4 Goku: 4*(400*10) = 16,000

I used SSJ3 multiplier plus Oozaru multiplier on top for this example. But as you can see Goku is vastly superior to Vegeta.

Well this was my argument from the very beginning. GT =/= Z multipliers.

Goku (base) = 5
SS gohan = 4
Base vegeta = 1
SS vegeta = 50
Baby SS vegeta = 100 ??
SS3 goku = 90
SBV = 150
SBV2 = 200
Goku (zenkai) = 180 (SS3)
Ape baby = 50 x 10 + 150 = 650
SS4 goku = 650

So, if you go by 50x multiplier for SS for vegeta, then multiplier for goku turns out to be 18x for SS3. SS4 turns out to be about 65x base for goku in that case.

There is also the fact that for some reason Pan is stronger than her father who had kept up training according to the GT Perfect Files. She actually managed to dodge and at least land a blow against Rildo while he was in his final form.

Gohan is maxed out.

What does this even mean? It literally makes no sense that Gohan would be inferior to his daughter in terms of power especially if he has kept up his training. And if he was somehow maxed out then we would have been told. No explanation is given for him being inferior to his daughter.

I give this to you.

Gohan was already maxed out, he was already not only as strong as his full potential, but even stronger than that. I'm sure neither goku nor vegeta maxed out.

Gohan can't be maxed out. He has gone beyond his limits. Limits don't exist for Gohan in the first place. And it would make no sense for the guidebooks to say that Gohan had kept training to become stronger if he literally couldn't get any stronger.

Gohan WAS maxed out, atleast in DBZ (maybe not in GT, but surely in DBZ). Ultimate gohan > gohan's max potential (according to DB manga, not counting GT logic)

[Hugo Boss]

Vegeta got incredibly stronger in GT. It can be accounted for zenkais.

When did Vegeta recover from near-death experience in Dragon Ball GT?

Goku's fight with baby vegeta pushed him to death. He most likely got a zenkai with that (Zenkai + tail put him closer to SBV 2)

According to Baby, Goku's power wasn't any different from when they fought previously.

Gohan WAS maxed out, at least in DBZ (maybe not in GT, but surely in DBZ). Ultimate gohan > gohan's max potential (according to DB manga, not counting GT logic)

If you follow only the manga continuity, Gohan didn't get any stronger after the Boo Arc, but nowhere in the manga it is said Gohan has reached a limit he couldn't surpass. There are suplemental sources beyond the TV anime that suggest Gohan kept his training, though the TV anime itself doesn't hint anything about Gohan getting stronger since he fought Boo.

[Hitiro]

1. Vegeta got destroyed by fat buu (or himself) , and then died. He never healed from near death.

2. Vegeta got healed after kid buu fight, by dende. There is no way to know that he got a zenkai boost or not.

3. Gohan is maxed out, atleast post his old kaioshin powerup. He was not just AT his limits, but "far beyond his limits. No one else can do that."

4. Gohan was pushed to near death by fat buu, and he got MUCH stronger by healing + Z sword training (but we will never know how big contribution zenkai had in it).

1. Vegeta got wrecked by #18 he didn't get a boost to surpass her or #17.

2. Vegeta got wrecked by Perfect Cell yet he didn't get a power up.

3. Vegeta got wrecked a third time by Perfect Cell yet he didn't get a power up. He had to actually work to get up to Gohan and Goku's level and he even struggled to do that. Much like how Goku also struggled to catch up with Gohan with 7 years of training.

4. Despite 7 years of intense training they should have surpassed Gohan quickly if Zenkai's were still a thing. Goku abused them for 5 days while travelling to Namek and gained 10x his battle power. Yet Vegeta and Goku barely caught up to Gohan who was at most 4 times stronger than SSJ Goku with his SSJ2 + anger boost.

5. Gohan had received a near death blow from Boo before going to pull the Z sword. His power was never stated to have increased from that.

So? Vegeta got incredibly stronger in GT. It can be accounted for zenkais.

No it can't? When we have been expressly told that characters don't receive them or they have become so negligible that they don't offer any sort of benefit. Apart from Cell is there any other example of a Zenkai in the series after the Freeza arc? No, there isn't. They stopped being a thing because the characters had become insanely powerful. Daizenshuu 7 states this too as per DBZGTKOSDH's post.

Goku's fight with baby vegeta pushed him to death. He most likely got a zenkai with that (Zenkai + tail put him closer to SBV 2)

Goku gets destroyed by SBV2 the first time. The second fight SBV2 says Goku's power hasn't increased.

Episode 33
Time: around 13m40s
Context: After Goku supposedly lands a decisive blow to Baby, but Baby is unharmed
Baby: "You haven't gotten the least bit stronger."
Goku: "N-not in the least? That can't be. I should at least be a teensy bit stronger..."
Baby: "Not even in the least!"

So that just shows there aren't any Zenkai's. And this was the fight in which Goku was pummelled to the point he couldn't even move.

Episode 29
Time: 18m30s
Context: Vegeta's Revenge Death Ball is heading toward Goku
Goku: "Damn... It's no use! I-I can't move! [ ] D-damn it all!"

Well this was my argument from the very beginning. GT =/= Z multipliers.

Goku (base) = 5
SS gohan = 4
Base vegeta = 1
SS vegeta = 50
Baby SS vegeta = 100 ??
SS3 goku = 90
SBV = 150
SBV2 = 200
Goku (zenkai) = 180 (SS3)
Ape baby = 50 x 10 + 150 = 650
SS4 goku = 650

The issue is Goku does not get a Zenkai from fighting SBV2. It is outright stated in the second time he fights him that he hasn't gotten even the tiniest bit stronger. Let alone doubled in strength.

So, if you go by 50x multiplier for SS for vegeta, then multiplier for goku turns out to be 18x for SS3. SS4 turns out to be about 65x base for goku in that case.

Why is Vegeta's SSJ so much stronger than the SSJ3 multiplier? And that would not make any sense later because Goku is actually superior to SSJ2 Vegeta in just his SSJ form when he fights Super 17.

Gohan WAS maxed out, atleast in DBZ (maybe not in GT, but surely in DBZ). Ultimate gohan > gohan's max potential (according to DB manga, not counting GT logic)

There is no maxed out for Gohan. He has tons and tons of stored potential. Boundless probably. The Rou Kaioshin brought his potential way past his limits. But nothing says that Gohan can't train to further increase his limits. Goku and Vegeta do. And Gohan has enough power to be a match for both of them. If not more. Even in the Dragon Ball Super Manga Vegeta indicates that if Gohan were to train he could become superior than both of them.

[apex_pretador]

1. Vegeta got destroyed by fat buu (or himself) , and then died. He never healed from near death.

2. Vegeta got healed after kid buu fight, by dende. There is no way to know that he got a zenkai boost or not.

3. Gohan is maxed out, atleast post his old kaioshin powerup. He was not just AT his limits, but "far beyond his limits. No one else can do that."

4. Gohan was pushed to near death by fat buu, and he got MUCH stronger by healing + Z sword training (but we will never know how big contribution zenkai had in it).

1. Vegeta got wrecked by #18 he didn't get a boost to surpass her or #17.

2. Vegeta got wrecked by Perfect Cell yet he didn't get a power up.

3. Vegeta got wrecked a third time by Perfect Cell yet he didn't get a power up. He had to actually work to get up to Gohan and Goku's level and he even struggled to do that. Much like how Goku also struggled to catch up with Gohan with 7 years of training.

4. Despite 7 years of intense training they should have surpassed Gohan quickly if Zenkai's were still a thing. Goku abused them for 5 days while travelling to Namek and gained 10x his battle power. Yet Vegeta and Goku barely caught up to Gohan who was at most 4 times stronger than SSJ Goku with his SSJ2 + anger boost.

5. Gohan had received a near death blow from Boo before going to pull the Z sword. His power was never stated to have increased from that.

1, 2, 3 - He was not wrecked on the level to get a zenkai.
4 - They can't just abuse them forcefully. If zenkais follow any logic like that, then how you justify goku's 6 day training + Zankais + 100g = 90,000 , while ONE single zenkai takes him to over 3,000,000 ???
5. All I remember is that goku complemented him on being a LOT stronger. However , it also comes from Z sword training.

So? Vegeta got incredibly stronger in GT. It can be accounted for zenkais.

No it can't? When we have been expressly told that characters don't receive them or they have become so negligible that they don't offer any sort of benefit. Apart from Cell is there any other example of a Zenkai in the series after the Freeza arc? No, there isn't. They stopped being a thing because the characters had become insanely powerful. Daizenshuu 7 states this too as per DBZGTKOSDH's post.

The guidebooks are a great way to assist the series , but
Not everything in guidebooks are correct. Proof :

1. Zenkais were not forgotten, nor stopped being a thing. They were EXPLICITLY stated too be a thing
2. The saiyans were almost never pushed to death in cell arc.
3. The same guidebooks put king piccolo at 260, while tien, who is unbelievably stronger than him, is 250 by manga at BoZ.
4. Even in DB, before zenkais were a plot thing, goku seemed to get stronger after battles that pushed him to limits.

Goku's fight with baby vegeta pushed him to death. He most likely got a zenkai with that (Zenkai + tail put him closer to SBV 2)

Goku gets destroyed by SBV2 the first time. The second fight SBV2 says Goku's power hasn't increased.

Episode 33
Time: around 13m40s
Context: After Goku supposedly lands a decisive blow to Baby, but Baby is unharmed
Baby: "You haven't gotten the least bit stronger."
Goku: "N-not in the least? That can't be. I should at least be a teensy bit stronger..."
Baby: "Not even in the least!"

So that just shows there aren't any Zenkai's. And this was the fight in which Goku was pummelled to the point he couldn't even move.

Episode 29
Time: 18m30s
Context: Vegeta's Revenge Death Ball is heading toward Goku
Goku: "Damn... It's no use! I-I can't move! [ ] D-damn it all!"

Source for quotes ?
And I remember old kaioshin saying something like goku will get stronger after tail is regrown. He also gets stronger when his tail grows in DB as well.

Well this was my argument from the very beginning. GT =/= Z multipliers.

Goku (base) = 5
SS gohan = 4
Base vegeta = 1
SS vegeta = 50
Baby SS vegeta = 100 ??
SS3 goku = 90
SBV = 150
SBV2 = 200
Goku (zenkai) = 180 (SS3)
Ape baby = 50 x 10 + 150 = 650
SS4 goku = 650

The issue is Goku does not get a Zenkai from fighting SBV2. It is outright stated in the second time he fights him that he hasn't gotten even the tiniest bit stronger. Let alone doubled in strength.

In that case, the multipliers are even more different. Anyways, old kaioshin did say something along the power of goku increasing with tail, & i'll put his statement over any comment from baby. [/quote]

So, if you go by 50x multiplier for SS for vegeta, then multiplier for goku turns out to be 18x for SS3. SS4 turns out to be about 65x base for goku in that case.

Why is Vegeta's SSJ so much stronger than the SSJ3 multiplier? And that would not make any sense later because Goku is actually superior to SSJ2 Vegeta in just his SSJ form when he fights Super 17.[/quote]

Super 17 saga is different scaling than baby arc.
SS goku also becomes many times stronger than majuub, who was close to SBV 2.
SS vegeta was doing as good, if not better than majuub.

Baby saga =/= super 17 saga =/= shenron saga

Gohan WAS maxed out, atleast in DBZ (maybe not in GT, but surely in DBZ). Ultimate gohan > gohan's max potential (according to DB manga, not counting GT logic)

There is no maxed out for Gohan. He has tons and tons of stored potential. Boundless probably. The Rou Kaioshin brought his potential way past his limits. But nothing says that Gohan can't train to further increase his limits. Goku and Vegeta do. And Gohan has enough power to be a match for both of them. If not more. Even in the Dragon Ball Super Manga Vegeta indicates that if Gohan were to train he could become superior than both of them.

If he trains, his potential will increase, but you don't get what I'm trying to say : Buu arc gohan is maxed out AT this point.

So, see it like this :

Buu arc :
Gohan - 1 , SS2 - 100 , Full potential - 500 , ultimate - 800

DBS :
Gohan - 60 , SS - 300 , full potential - more than 1000

So, buu arc gohan can't just get zenkais.

[Darkprince410]

1, 2, 3 - He was not wrecked on the level to get a zenkai.

In the case of his first battle with Perfect Cell at least, Vegeta was throttled easily to the point that he could have received one if they were any real sort of thing.

4 - They can't just abuse them forcefully. If zenkais follow any logic like that, then how you justify goku's 6 day training + Zankais + 100g = 90,000 , while ONE single zenkai takes him to over 3,000,000 ???

The manga's narrator indicates otherwise.

Chapter: 270 (DBZ 76), P8.3-4
Context: Narrator commenting on Goku’s increasing strength.
Narrator: “Goku had continued this insane pattern of pushing his body and ki to the brink of death, then refreshing himself again by eating a senzu. The 7 senzu he received from Lord Karin have already fallen to only 3…However, though this training is outrageous, perhaps Goku has somehow realized the Saiyan characteristic of their strength increasing when they overcome death…”

Unless he were gaining near-death power-ups during the course of his training, there wouldn't be anything there for Goku to have "somehow realized". Since the manga's narrator indicates otherwise though, then he was gaining near-death power-ups during the course of his gravity training for Namek. The near-death power-ups don't follow an explicit pattern for how much they increase an individual's power, and we see that quite clearly with Vegeta. His power-ups following the battle on Earth (18,000 to 24,000) and following his fight with Zarbon (24,000 to "over 30,000") were quite paltry in comparison to his power-ups following his battle with Recoome ("over 30,000" to enough to give Freeza, battle power of 530,000 some trouble) and Kuririn's attack (that low-mid hundred thousands to well above Piccolo's "over 1 million"), so you can't use the potency of one near-death power-up to say that's what all of them should be potency wise.

Source for quotes ?

Those are from the original Japanese version of the anime.

And I remember old kaioshin saying something like goku will get stronger after tail is regrown. He also gets stronger when his tail grows in DB as well.

Rou Kaioushin says that his dormant power should appear, but his strength didn't increase at all, and Kibitoshin and Rou Kaioushin even comment on that fact later.

Episode 33
Time: 15m35s
Context: Elder Kaioshin and the others are watching Goku from the glass ball
Kibitoshin: "Grand Kaioshin-sama, what's the matter with Goku-san? Wasn't his dormant power supposed to have been awakened?"
Elder Kaioshin: "That's what was supposed to happen..."

In that case, the multipliers are even more different. Anyways, old kaioshin did say something along the power of goku increasing with tail, & i'll put his statement over any comment from baby.

And Rou Kaioushin, as shown above, established that it didn't increase, even though that's what was meant to happen. Likewise, given what the narrator says after Goku transforms into the Golden Oozaru, it seems that that's the real way his "dormant power" was supposed to be awakened, not simply his tail being pulled back out.

Time: 20m25s
Context: Great Ape Goku stands before Baby
Narrator: "At last, Goku's dormant power has been awakened! Having transformed into a golden Great Ape, will Goku be able to defeat Baby?"

[Hitiro]

1, 2, 3 - He was not wrecked on the level to get a zenkai.

He was destroyed to the point that he broke his arm in the with #18 and then beaten to the point of unconsciousness. In 2 against Cell he was also utterly dessicated. If you also consider Kuririn who literally broke every bone in his body just from receiving a kick from Perfect Cell it is extremely likely that Vegeta, while exhausted because he spent all his energy, received huge damage from Cell. Cell's blows were also enough to render him unconscious and he also spurted blood from the last hit.

4 - They can't just abuse them forcefully. If zenkais follow any logic like that, then how you justify goku's 6 day training + Zankais + 100g = 90,000 , while ONE single zenkai takes him to over 3,000,000 ???

Because Zenkai's have been shown to have random increases? Because Goku's power didn't increase that big after his fight with Vegeta. Goku trained to 90,000 while using Zenkai's to push him to that level. Vegeta also didn't get a massive amount stronger when he had his Zenkai from the battle with Goku. His battle power only went up to 24,000. Also, the Zenkai would not have to take him over 3,000,000. Just hit 3,000,000. The simple fact of the matter is if Goku didn't abuse Zenkai's then he would not have been able to reach 100g in 5 days. He would also not have been 90,000 by the time he reached Namek. It took him half a year to reach 20x his battle power just through normal training. Compared to that in a mere 5 days he reached 10x his battle power through Zenkai abuse while training also. You can see the huge discrepancy there.

The guidebooks are a great way to assist the series , but
Not everything in guidebooks are correct. Proof :

1. Zenkais were not forgotten, nor stopped being a thing. They were EXPLICITLY stated too be a thing
2. The saiyans were almost never pushed to death in cell arc.
3. The same guidebooks put king piccolo at 260, while Tenshinhan, who is unbelievably stronger than him, is 250 by manga at BoZ.
4. Even in DB, before zenkais were a plot thing, goku seemed to get stronger after battles that pushed him to limits.

This is hardly proof.
1. I never said Zenkai's were forgotten. Just that they ceased to play an important role in the story because the characters had grown so strong even if they were still there they only increased the characters power by negligible amounts.

2. This is variable. Goku was not "pushed to death" when he received his power up to 3 million. Vegeta wasn't "pushed to death" when he received his power up after Recoom decimated him. I would say they had the same experiences leading up to the end of the Cell arc.

3. Where are you getting this? How do you know Tenshinhan is unbelievably stronger than King Piccolo? You realise that Both Goku and Piccolo had reached battle powers in the 400's by BoZ. So it is perfectly fine to have Tenshinhan that low. What in the story states Tenshinhan surpassed King Piccolo? Goku pretty much took Tenshinhan a part during the tournament. With plenty of energy to spare. Piccolo also was still stronger than Tenshinhan despite losing a lot of energy during his fight with Goku. So Tenshinhan probably didn't get much stronger than the 180 that was recorded when he fought Goku.

4. What does this have to do with Zenkai's becoming less viable as the story progressed?

Source for quotes ?
And I remember old kaioshin saying something like goku will get stronger after tail is regrown. He also gets stronger when his tail grows in DB as well.

http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8415871/1/
This site has all of the strength quotes for the whole GT series. The Rou Kaioshin says that growing Goku's tail back should bring out his dormant power. He said nothing about it increasing his actual strength. In fact Rou Kaioshin was actually aiming for Goku to become SSJ4 from the dialogue.

Episode 35
Time: 4m15s
Context: Elder Kaioshin & co. are watching from the crystal ball
Elder Kaioshin: "He did it! That there is the result of all my training! That's Super Saiyan 4!"

In that case, the multipliers are even more different. Anyways, old kaioshin did say something along the power of goku increasing with tail, & i'll put his statement over any comment from baby.

As said above the Rou Kaioshin was aiming for the tail to draw out Goku's dormant power. Literally SSJ4. The Rou Kaioshin also states Goku's power hasn't increased stating they should have seen a difference by now.

Episode 33
Time: 15m35s
Context: Elder Kaioshin and the others are watching Goku from the glass ball
Kibitoshin: "Grand Kaioshin-sama, what's the matter with Goku-san? Wasn't his dormant power supposed to have been awakened?"
Elder Kaioshin: "That's what was supposed to happen..."
Note: In the dub, Kibitoshin just wonders if they pulled Goku's tail out too far and that's why he's doing so poorly.

Super 17 saga is different scaling than baby arc.
SS goku also becomes many times stronger than majuub, who was close to SBV 2.
SS vegeta was doing as good, if not better than majuub.

And again I ask you how does Vegeta go from this to being on par with SSJ4 Goku by becoming a SSJ4 himself? Because Goku is already vastly stronger than him in the Super 17 arc. To the point that SSJ2 Vegeta can barely take on a Hell #17 while SSJ Goku effortlessly beat down Super 17. Which was my point. Also how did Goku go from being weaker than SBV2 with SSJ3 to being so strong a character who you claim is at SBV2 level, and getting beaten, is pro-actively destroying the person who is probably twice as strong as the form that was beating the SBV2 level character with just SSJ? There is a vast difference there.

If he trains, his potential will increase, but you don't get what I'm trying to say : Buu arc gohan is maxed out AT this point.

So, see it like this :

Buu arc :
Gohan - 1 , SS2 - 100 , Full potential - 500 , ultimate - 800

DBS :
Gohan - 60 , SS - 300 , full potential - more than 1000

So, buu arc gohan can't just get zenkais.

There is no proof of this. Going by both GT and Super the statements argue the opposite is true. Limits are always surpassed throughout the story. Even going back to the very line from the Narrator when Goku arrives on Namek states through his training and using Zenkai's Goku was able to surpass Saiyan Limits. This goes on for the whole arc.