GT Power Levels explain DB Super

[TheMikado]

But champa says that namekian made balls have limits, & super DBs don't
Also, ho pilaf became too old in 13 years ?

Why wouldn't they just wish themselves older again. Remember in GT Pilaf recognizes Goku immediately but never saw him at all in Z. Pilar immediately recognizing GT in Z would make sense based on interactions in Super.

2) It looks like the majority of the remainder of Super will take place off world meaning the events of GT can still happen since its sandwiched right inbetween.

Not impossible

Because you said so?

3) I believe they will go SSJ4 in Super and both Goku and Vegeta will obtain God status but this proves too dangerous and Whis is forced to erase their memory but cannot remove their power.
This would explain Goku's insane base power level in GT.

But vegeta said they are already near their limit, and how will they go SS4 when they don't even have tail ?
Also, god forms & ozaru aren't compatible. If anything, super is going away from the GT route by removing tails of all other saiyans. Anyways, it doesn't explain how goku's base is so much stronger than vegeta's base.

The saiyans from the other universe have no tails. Meaning the Glands for the Ozaru form are not there. This would provide them with a distinct advantage over them and the manga MAKES a point in pointing out they specifically DO NOT HAVE TAILS. Why even bother if that is not a significant plot point in the future. Also Ozaru & God form are not compatible once again because you say so...?

4) I believe there is a reason SSJ God looks like normal base once you have obtained it. Furthermore I believe SSB will revert back to Yellow once its God form has been fully mastered. Again don't think SSJ God power looking like normal base is a coincidence.

SSG isn't base form, it has god ki, which can't be sensed. GT goku was being sensed fine.
Also, if that was true, GT goku must be stronger than beerus in his SS form, means baby vegeta >>> beerus.
Baby sensing goku also proves he's not got god ki.
Also, SS gohan being massively stronger than base vegeta, well , & base gohan being weaker than SS goten when vegeta in base is millions of times stronger than goten ?

Baby senses Saiyans, not Gods furthermore he also infected Vegeta who also have God Ki. And yes Baby is stronger than Beerus. Remember no creature in the universe is stronger except artificially created beings. This would make GT consistent since Beerus would still be the strongest non artificial/created being short of Goku/Vegeta. Even the dragons were created beings

Where are you getting your power level estimates from????? We know Vegeta and Goku have to be around the same power level for fusion to work. If SSJ4 is a multiplier then they would have to be close enough for the multiplier to work and be close in SSJ4 form to perform fusion.

5) In GT, nothing is stronger than Goku other than created android/machines and dragons. Even with that, most utilize none traditional means against Goku.

In GT, nothing is stronger than goku, because he's goku

I think you miss the point that GT does not have any natural creatures stronger than Beerus which would allow consistency.

7) People use the argument of the Supreme Kai's defusion as evidence however Supreme Kai say that his power substantially increased after the fusion and he still retains his dominance.
Should the Universe be threatened I could see Kai refusing again. It could also set up a circumstance where Kibito is mortally wounded and we see an emotional scene where Supreme Kai fuses with him to "save" him inside himself.

Who knows, kaioshin & kibito felt awkward due to merged, but after seperating, they felt they love each other & are made for each other by god ..., I mean by the apple tree ?

Why not?

The argument of no Gold Freeza in hell has been pointed out, however we do not know the circumstances under which he is imprisoned/punished. Furthermore the point of Cell and Freeza's attack wasn't to beat/defeat him. It was to imprison him. Gold Freeza was unnecessary for what he was doing and Goku was not very imposing in his child form and actually played around without even going super Saiyan. In fact Goku never actually "beat" them physically they were ultimately imprisoned in ice using the trap they set for Goku in the first place.

Yeah, and freeza might have trained cell to be as strong as him in his white form , thanking him for freeing him from cocoon.
Who knows cell had even more potential & surpassed even whis in his regular form.

I've got nothing for this.. All I'm saying is there is a plausible reason. That's all.

I think my point is that there is enough evidence and explainable circumstances to make it possible that GT is canon and a continuation of the same main timeline and not hard enough evidence to make GT non-canon at this point. This can obviously change in the future but there have been more than enough opportunities to completely invalidate GT to the point of no return and that hasn't happened yet.

EoZ is just 3 pages, which can be modified a bit & still be kept as canon, but GT seems hard.[/quote][/quote]

Its really not that hard from the way Super has been established already. We already have God-like characters introduced who can literally turn back time at will and recreate history. Building on these powers gives the Dragonball timeline the biggest plot hole out in history. The time rewind ability is on some almost "It was all a dream" level recon territory and would allow them to completely recant GT and then turn around and say "just kidding".

[apex_pretador]

But champa says that namekian made balls have limits, & super DBs don't
Also, ho pilaf became too old in 13 years ?

Why wouldn't they just wish themselves older again. Remember in GT Pilaf recognizes Goku immediately but never saw him at all in Z. Pilar immediately recognizing GT in Z would make sense based on interactions in Super.

2) It looks like the majority of the remainder of Super will take place off world meaning the events of GT can still happen since its sandwiched right inbetween.

Not impossible

Because you said so?

What? I'm agreeing with your point & you disagree on my agreeing ?

3) I believe they will go SSJ4 in Super and both Goku and Vegeta will obtain God status but this proves too dangerous and Whis is forced to erase their memory but cannot remove their power.
This would explain Goku's insane base power level in GT.

But vegeta said they are already near their limit, and how will they go SS4 when they don't even have tail ?
Also, god forms & ozaru aren't compatible. If anything, super is going away from the GT route by removing tails of all other saiyans. Anyways, it doesn't explain how goku's base is so much stronger than vegeta's base.

The saiyans from the other universe have no tails. Meaning the Glands for the Ozaru form are not there. This would provide them with a distinct advantage over them and the manga MAKES a point in pointing out they specifically DO NOT HAVE TAILS. Why even bother if that is not a significant plot point in the future. Also Ozaru & God form are not compatible once again because you say so...?

SSG was fighting ozarus , meaning that there must've been full moon out there, but he was shown to be in human form with tail.

4) I believe there is a reason SSJ God looks like normal base once you have obtained it. Furthermore I believe SSB will revert back to Yellow once its God form has been fully mastered. Again don't think SSJ God power looking like normal base is a coincidence.

SSG isn't base form, it has god ki, which can't be sensed. GT goku was being sensed fine.
Also, if that was true, GT goku must be stronger than beerus in his SS form, means baby vegeta >>> beerus.
Baby sensing goku also proves he's not got god ki.
Also, SS gohan being massively stronger than base vegeta, well , & base gohan being weaker than SS goten when vegeta in base is millions of times stronger than goten ?

Baby senses Saiyans, not Gods furthermore he also infected Vegeta who also have God Ki. And yes Baby is stronger than Beerus. Remember no creature in the universe is stronger except artificially created beings. This would make GT consistent since Beerus would still be the strongest non artificial/created being short of Goku/Vegeta. Even the dragons were created beings

Baby stronger than beerus ? amazing theory !

Where are you getting your power level estimates from????? We know Vegeta and Goku have to be around the same power level for fusion to work. If SSJ4 is a multiplier then they would have to be close enough for the multiplier to work and be close in SSJ4 form to perform fusion.

Base goku kicked SS gohan's ass who completely thrashed base vegeta.
Vegeta in DBS is soooooooo much stronger than gohan that it is not even funny to compare the two. Although gohan may have become stronger with piccolo, but still

5) In GT, nothing is stronger than Goku other than created android/machines and dragons. Even with that, most utilize none traditional means against Goku.

In GT, nothing is stronger than goku, because he's goku

I think you miss the point that GT does not have any natural creatures stronger than Beerus which would allow consistency.

Shenrons?

7) People use the argument of the Supreme Kai's defusion as evidence however Supreme Kai say that his power substantially increased after the fusion and he still retains his dominance.
Should the Universe be threatened I could see Kai refusing again. It could also set up a circumstance where Kibito is mortally wounded and we see an emotional scene where Supreme Kai fuses with him to "save" him inside himself.

Who knows, kaioshin & kibito felt awkward due to merged, but after seperating, they felt they love each other & are made for each other by god ..., I mean by the apple tree ?

Why not?

kibitooooooo I love you, lets merge again for once forever

The argument of no Gold Freeza in hell has been pointed out, however we do not know the circumstances under which he is imprisoned/punished. Furthermore the point of Cell and Freeza's attack wasn't to beat/defeat him. It was to imprison him. Gold Freeza was unnecessary for what he was doing and Goku was not very imposing in his child form and actually played around without even going super Saiyan. In fact Goku never actually "beat" them physically they were ultimately imprisoned in ice using the trap they set for Goku in the first place.

Yeah, and freeza might have trained cell to be as strong as him in his white form , thanking him for freeing him from cocoon.
Who knows cell had even more potential & surpassed even whis in his regular form.

I've got nothing for this.. All I'm saying is there is a plausible reason. That's all.

I think my point is that there is enough evidence and explainable circumstances to make it possible that GT is canon and a continuation of the same main timeline and not hard enough evidence to make GT non-canon at this point. This can obviously change in the future but there have been more than enough opportunities to completely invalidate GT to the point of no return and that hasn't happened yet.

EoZ is just 3 pages, which can be modified a bit & still be kept as canon, but GT seems hard.

Its really not that hard from the way Super has been established already. We already have God-like characters introduced who can literally turn back time at will and recreate history. Building on these powers gives the Dragonball timeline the biggest plot hole out in history. The time rewind ability is on some almost "It was all a dream" level recon territory and would allow them to completely recant GT and then turn around and say "just kidding".

[/quote]
we'll see. I know it is not impossible

[TheMikado]

What? I'm agreeing with your point & you disagree on my agreeing ?

I just misread

3) I believe they will go SSJ4 in Super and both Goku and Vegeta will obtain God status but this proves too dangerous and Whis is forced to erase their memory but cannot remove their power.
This would explain Goku's insane base power level in GT.

But vegeta said they are already near their limit, and how will they go SS4 when they don't even have tail ?
Also, god forms & ozaru aren't compatible. If anything, super is going away from the GT route by removing tails of all other saiyans. Anyways, it doesn't explain how goku's base is so much stronger than vegeta's base.

Also Ozaru & God form are not compatible once again because you say so...?

SSG was fighting ozarus , meaning that there must've been full moon out there, but he was shown to be in human form with tail.

SSG was fighting ozarus , meaning that there must've been full moon out there, but he was shown to be in human form with tail.

We know the God form with Pink aura may not be affected. However God ki wouldn't prevent them from going oozaru. In the original SSG story it says his power had a time limit and that after it expired he attempted to go oozaru form. If the conditions were similar to Goku, he would have retained some power just not the full God form.

Also, SS gohan being massively stronger than base vegeta, well , & base gohan being weaker than SS goten when vegeta in base is millions of times stronger than goten.

Where are you getting your power level estimates from????? We know Vegeta and Goku have to be around the same power level for fusion to work. If SSJ4 is a multiplier then they would have to be close enough for the multiplier to work and be close in SSJ4 form to perform fusion.

Base goku kicked SS gohan's ass who completely thrashed base vegeta.
Vegeta in DBS is soooooooo much stronger than gohan that it is not even funny to compare the two. Although gohan may have become stronger with piccolo, but still

OK I can see why you might think that. Vegeta didn't fight SS Gohan, he fought Baby SS Gohan. If you saw some of my earlier work on Baby's possession powers,Baby's powers are additive to their host. By the time Baby was possessing Vegeta he would have been at base Goku/Vegeta x400 by himself. The combination of Gohan and Baby probably put his power level around X200-400.. Because baby's power level would have been additive as he jumps between host he would have gotten a x100 boost from Goten and an x100 boost from Gohan. Enough to finally overpower Vegeta. Remember Baby cannot possess stronger hosts and his power levels are additive. Anyway using Baby possessed Gohan vs Vegeta as a measure of Non-baby possessed Gohan and Goku fighting abilities/power is not realistic.

I think you miss the point that GT does not have any natural creatures stronger than Beerus which would allow consistency.

Shenrons?

I always considered Shenrons created beings since the dragon balls are created by Namekians. But I guess that's only really a summoning tool. Either way I don't really know.

[Hitiro]

Tenshinhan was confident in beating goku, even after sensing how strong he has become , even after he could easily destroy daimao easily.
BoZ Tenshinhan is 5 years training from that. Tenshinhan (before increasing speed) was matching goku blow to blow while saying he got much stronger, and he compared that to daimao killing goku.

Tenshinhan saying he could beat Goku literally means nothing when you consider speed as his asset. The faster fighter will always have an advantage over the slower and stronger fighter. Tenshinhan believes he can't compete with Goku's strength yet he believes he can still beat him because in his words he thought Goku had not got any faster.

Current strength, which is massively higher than when he beat daimao. Also, he was much faster than goku who beat daimao.
Also, power level is a combination of speed , strength & durability. It predicts who will win the fight, not the amount of ki.

So, Tenshinhan 250 > Tenshinhan (23rd TB) > improved goku (23rd TB, vs Tenshinhan) >> Goku (vs daimao) > full power young daimao

His strength is never indicated to be massively higher than when Goku beat Piccolo Daimaou. You can check the Strength Checker if you want. The only thing of note was that he had gotten strong enough to beat Tao Pai Pai in one blow and that his speed was incredible. And again, being much faster than the version of Goku who beat Piccolo Daimaou means nothing as I previously said. Because Tenshinhan can have speed surpassing him or Piccolo Daimaou and still have a lower battle power. Even Goku on the Namek arc was said to have speed surpassing Ginyu in their fight yet Goku's maximum was 90,000 as opposed to Ginyu's 120,000/

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P10.3
Ginyu: “He’s fast! Is his speed greater than mine?!”

So this just goes to show that a character who is weaker can still have the advantage in a certain area. Burta was another example of this. So:

Goku (23rd TB) > Tenshinhan(Speed) 250 > Tenshinhan (23rd TB Speed) > Goku (23rd TB speed w/ weighted clothing[1]) == Goku (Speed vs. Daimaou) > Full Power Young Daimaou (Speed)

Goku (23rd TB) > Goku (23rd TB w/ weighted clothing) > Goku (vs. Daimaou) > Full Power Young Daimaou > Tenshinhan 250 > Tenshinhan (23rd TB)

1. Goku's speed was stated to have not changed in 3 years by Tenshinhan. This of course was because Goku was wearing weighted clothing so Tenshinhan was actually wrong here, hence the two comparisons above. One of speed and one of strength.

Chapter: 177, P1.2-4, P2.1
Tenshinhan: “Son, you are truly incredible. 3 years ago, your strength was all but perfect. I’m amazed that you’ve managed to go so far above even that. However, there’s one thing that you haven’t changed that much from 3 years ago. And that’s something especially important in battle…speed!”

For a comparative look. Goku was 1/4th weaker than Ginyu yet Ginyu believed Goku's speed was superior. If Tenshinhan was 208 at the 23rd TB then his battle power would be the same distance between him and Piccolo Daimaou as there is with Goku and Ginyu which could put him as faster than Piccolo Daimaou like it apparently did with Goku and Ginyu.

[Hellspawn28]

But champa says that namekian made balls have limits, & super DBs don't
Also, ho pilaf became too old in 13 years ?

Why wouldn't they just wish themselves older again. Remember in GT Pilaf recognizes Goku immediately but never saw him at all in Z. Pilar immediately recognizing GT in Z would make sense based on interactions in Super.

Pilaf in GT didn't recognized Goku when Goku walk in when they summon the Black Star Shenron. He ask Shu who he was while Shu and Mai recognize him right off the bat. Not to mention in GT, Pilaf not recognizing Goku makes no sense since he saw Goku as an adult at the end of the first DB series and GT follows filler.

Should the Universe be threatened I could see Kai refusing again. It could also set up a circumstance where Kibito is mortally wounded and we see an emotional scene where Supreme Kai fuses with him to "save" him inside himself.

Why fuse again if they already wish themselves defuse? It makes it pointless since they went through all of that for nothing. Kaioshin and Kibitoshin are useless characters, so I doubt they will be fighting with Goku and the others soon.

[apex_pretador]

Current strength, which is massively higher than when he beat daimao. Also, he was much faster than goku who beat daimao.
Also, power level is a combination of speed , strength & durability. It predicts who will win the fight, not the amount of ki.

So, Tenshinhan 250 > Tenshinhan (23rd TB) > improved goku (23rd TB, vs Tenshinhan) >> Goku (vs daimao) > full power young daimao

His strength is never indicated to be massively higher than when Goku beat Piccolo Daimaou. You can check the Strength Checker if you want. The only thing of note was that he had gotten strong enough to beat Tao Pai Pai in one blow and that his speed was incredible. And again, being much faster than the version of Goku who beat Piccolo Daimaou means nothing as I previously said. Because Tenshinhan can have speed surpassing him or Piccolo Daimaou and still have a lower battle power. Even Goku on the Namek arc was said to have speed surpassing Ginyu in their fight yet Goku's maximum was 90,000 as opposed to Ginyu's 120,000/

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P10.3
Ginyu: “He’s fast! Is his speed greater than mine?!”

So this just goes to show that a character who is weaker can still have the advantage in a certain area. Burta was another example of this. So:

Goku (23rd TB) > Tenshinhan(Speed) 250 > Tenshinhan (23rd TB Speed) > Goku (23rd TB speed w/ weighted clothing[1]) == Goku (Speed vs. Daimaou) > Full Power Young Daimaou (Speed)

Goku (23rd TB) > Goku (23rd TB w/ weighted clothing) > Goku (vs. Daimaou) > Full Power Young Daimaou > Tenshinhan 250 > Tenshinhan (23rd TB)

1. Goku's speed was stated to have not changed in 3 years by Tenshinhan. This of course was because Goku was wearing weighted clothing so Tenshinhan was actually wrong here, hence the two comparisons above. One of speed and one of strength.

Chapter: 177, P1.2-4, P2.1
Tenshinhan: “Son, you are truly incredible. 3 years ago, your strength was all but perfect. I’m amazed that you’ve managed to go so far above even that. However, there’s one thing that you haven’t changed that much from 3 years ago. And that’s something especially important in battle…speed!”

For a comparative look. Goku was 1/4th weaker than Ginyu yet Ginyu believed Goku's speed was superior. If Tenshinhan was 208 at the 23rd TB then his battle power would be the same distance between him and Piccolo Daimaou as there is with Goku and Ginyu which could put him as faster than Piccolo Daimaou like it apparently did with Goku and Ginyu.

You are misinterpreting "power level".
Power level is the determination of who will win in the fight, all factors considered (including speed, strength & durability)
Whenever someone's power level has increased, speed has increased as well EVERYTIME. Power level isn't just the measure of strength, but the outcome of fight.

Dodoria is like 21,000 , but as soon as he knew vegeta is 24k, he knew it was over, just over. He was not like the strength & durability & speed are different.
Even vegeta explained Cui that if power level increases, speed obviously increases.


On ginyu vs goku, it is like goku having "speed" part of power level better (most likely due to 100g training). However, i'm fairly certain that if they fought, ginyu would've easily won unless goku used kaioken. The speed advantage wasn't big enough to overcome strength & durability part of power level.

Ginyu force also shows this - recoome has durability part better , butta has speed & jeece has attack strength, with all having nearly same power levels.



_______________________________________________________________________________
Also, since power levels determine the outcome of the battle, I think the chain is clear.

Tien (250) beats 23rd TB tien
23rd TB tien beats 23rd TB goku (weights)
23rd TB goku (weights) beats god water goku
God water goku easily beats daimao FP

So, strictly power levels dictate : 250 > 23rd tb tien > weight goku > GW goku > "official" 260 daimao


Not only this, but :

Kami "official" 220 >> popo "official" 1030 >> goku (god water, healed) >= goku (GW) > "Official" 260

Again, guidebooks are good, but obviously contain some inconsistencies, and it is not impossible.

[Hitiro]

You are misinterpreting "power level".
Power level is the determination of who will win in the fight, all factors considered (including speed, strength & durability)
Whenever someone's power level has increased, speed has increased as well EVERYTIME. Power level isn't just the measure of strength, but the outcome of fight.

Dodoria is like 21,000 , but as soon as he knew vegeta is 24k, he knew it was over, just over. He was not like the strength & durability & speed are different.
Even vegeta explained Cui that if power level increases, speed obviously increases.


On ginyu vs goku, it is like goku having "speed" part of power level better (most likely due to 100g training). However, i'm fairly certain that if they fought, ginyu would've easily won unless goku used kaioken. The speed advantage wasn't big enough to overcome strength & durability part of power level.

Power level is an accumulation of factors which represent a higher possibility at winning. From power levels we should be able to see who has the advantage or who is more likely to win. But we know that Power level isn't the be all and end all of a fight. A character can have a quirk or ability that makes them superior to an opponent who is even 100x stronger than them. A prime example is Kuririn's Kienzan or Tenshinhan's Kikoho or even Guldo's time freeze ability. Even Goku's Kaioken is an example of something that doesn't necessarily mean that Goku's actual battle power puts him at a disadvantage. And from Ginyu's dialogue you can see that he thought that even somebody with a battle power of 85,000 could be a worthy fight for him.

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P13.4
Context: after Goku lets Goku go
Ginyu: “You’re hiding even greater power! Did you really think that I wouldn’t notice…?! You were probably intending to preserve your power in preparation for fighting Lord Freeza, but don’t you underestimate me! I’m excited about having an entertaining fight for a change! So don’t do anything stupid!”

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P14.1
Context: after Goku tells Ginyu to watch his scouter
Ginyu: "Kukkukku... I don't have to look at my scouter. You should most likely be able to raise it up to 85,000."

Also Vegeta said that when his battle power rises his speed does to. That isn't necessarily indicative of all characters. In fact, we know that SSJG3, while it increases your strength, actually makes you slower.

Ginyu force also shows this - recoome has durability part better , butta has speed & jeece has attack strength, with all having nearly same power levels.

Which was my point? Characters can have varying stats. If they don't train their body correctly then even if their battle power increases they may not get faster or as fast as another of the same level or weaker. For instance, it could look something like this:

Goku(Pre-training)
Ki: 10
Speed: 5
Strength: 5
Ki amplified Speed: 5*10 = 50
Ki amplified Strength: 5*10 = 50

Goku(Post-training)
Ki: 20
Speed: 2.5
Strength: 10
Ki amplified Speed: 2.5*20 = 50
Ki amplified Strength: 5*20 = 50

And of course we can discern that the above happened because Goku bulked up too much like when they become SSJG3 and thus harmed his bodies speed so amplifying his speed by Ki would not lead to as much or any benefit.

Also, since power levels determine the outcome of the battle, I think the chain is clear.

Tenshinhan (250) beats 23rd TB Tenshinhan
23rd TB Tenshinhan beats 23rd TB goku (weights)
23rd TB goku (weights) beats god water goku
God water goku easily beats daimao FP

So, strictly power levels dictate : 250 > 23rd tb Tenshinhan > weight goku > GW goku > "official" 260 daimao


Not only this, but :

Kami "official" 220 >> popo "official" 1030 >> goku (god water, healed) >= goku (GW) > "Official" 260

Again, guidebooks are good, but obviously contain some inconsistencies, and it is not impossible.

Again, you're assuming that battle powers are the be all and end all. Characters can have advantages in fights which will give them more favour. So there is nothing necessarily wrong with the figures stated in the guidebooks. If Goku has a fair chance against Ginyu with a 120,000 to 85,000 difference or even 90,000 difference then there is no reason not to assume that Tenshinhan couldn't be capable of it. Therefore it's fair to assume that at a battle power of 208 he would be able to do something if he got his speed up to surpass Goku and Piccolo Daimaou. He even says that battle speed is the most important in the fight and that's why he believes he can still beat Goku because he assumed Goku got no faster.

[apex_pretador]

You are misinterpreting "power level".
Power level is the determination of who will win in the fight, all factors considered (including speed, strength & durability)
Whenever someone's power level has increased, speed has increased as well EVERYTIME. Power level isn't just the measure of strength, but the outcome of fight.

Dodoria is like 21,000 , but as soon as he knew vegeta is 24k, he knew it was over, just over. He was not like the strength & durability & speed are different.
Even vegeta explained Cui that if power level increases, speed obviously increases.


On ginyu vs goku, it is like goku having "speed" part of power level better (most likely due to 100g training). However, i'm fairly certain that if they fought, ginyu would've easily won unless goku used kaioken. The speed advantage wasn't big enough to overcome strength & durability part of power level.

Power level is an accumulation of factors which represent a higher possibility at winning. From power levels we should be able to see who has the advantage or who is more likely to win. But we know that Power level isn't the be all and end all of a fight. A character can have a quirk or ability that makes them superior to an opponent who is even 100x stronger than them. A prime example is Kuririn's Kienzan or Tenshinhan's Kikoho or even Guldo's time freeze ability. Even Goku's Kaioken is an example of something that doesn't necessarily mean that Goku's actual battle power puts him at a disadvantage. And from Ginyu's dialogue you can see that he thought that even somebody with a battle power of 85,000 could be a worthy fight for him.

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P13.4
Context: after Goku lets Goku go
Ginyu: “You’re hiding even greater power! Did you really think that I wouldn’t notice…?! You were probably intending to preserve your power in preparation for fighting Lord Freeza, but don’t you underestimate me! I’m excited about having an entertaining fight for a change! So don’t do anything stupid!”

Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P14.1
Context: after Goku tells Ginyu to watch his scouter
Ginyu: "Kukkukku... I don't have to look at my scouter. You should most likely be able to raise it up to 85,000."

Also Vegeta said that when his battle power rises his speed does to. That isn't necessarily indicative of all characters. In fact, we know that SSJG3, while it increases your strength, actually makes you slower.

Ginyu force also shows this - recoome has durability part better , butta has speed & jeece has attack strength, with all having nearly same power levels.

Which was my point? Characters can have varying stats. If they don't train their body correctly then even if their battle power increases they may not get faster or as fast as another of the same level or weaker. For instance, it could look something like this:

Goku(Pre-training)
Ki: 10
Speed: 5
Strength: 5
Ki amplified Speed: 5*10 = 50
Ki amplified Strength: 5*10 = 50

Goku(Post-training)
Ki: 20
Speed: 2.5
Strength: 10
Ki amplified Speed: 2.5*20 = 50
Ki amplified Strength: 5*20 = 50

And of course we can discern that the above happened because Goku bulked up too much like when they become SSJG3 and thus harmed his bodies speed so amplifying his speed by Ki would not lead to as much or any benefit.

Also, since power levels determine the outcome of the battle, I think the chain is clear.

Tenshinhan (250) beats 23rd TB Tenshinhan
23rd TB Tenshinhan beats 23rd TB goku (weights)
23rd TB goku (weights) beats god water goku
God water goku easily beats daimao FP

So, strictly power levels dictate : 250 > 23rd tb Tenshinhan > weight goku > GW goku > "official" 260 daimao


Not only this, but :

Kami "official" 220 >> popo "official" 1030 >> goku (god water, healed) >= goku (GW) > "Official" 260

Again, guidebooks are good, but obviously contain some inconsistencies, and it is not impossible.

Again, you're assuming that battle powers are the be all and end all. Characters can have advantages in fights which will give them more favour. So there is nothing necessarily wrong with the figures stated in the guidebooks. If Goku has a fair chance against Ginyu with a 120,000 to 85,000 difference or even 90,000 difference then there is no reason not to assume that Tenshinhan couldn't be capable of it. Therefore it's fair to assume that at a battle power of 208 he would be able to do something if he got his speed up to surpass Goku and Piccolo Daimaou. He even says that battle speed is the most important in the fight and that's why he believes he can still beat Goku because he assumed Goku got no faster.

1. Tien at power level 250 can beat tien at PL whatever it was at 23rd TB (less than 250)
2. Tien at less than 250 can beat weighted goku (neither goku, nor anyone else contradict the statement , which was made multiple times) , so weighted goku is "much less than" 250
3. Weighted goku, he was stated to be much superior to daimao arc goku in everything but speed. So, daimao arc goku loses to 23rd TB weighted goku easliy. Daimao arc goku "Even more less than less than 250"
4. That goku beat daimao easily, who is "wayyy less than 250"

Power levels indicate who will win the fight, that's all. They don't indicate who is faster or stronger or more durable, but the combination of all factors.

Ginyu wasn't losing to goku. Goku was only slightly faster & ginyu was having a hard time to catch him, that's all. Ginyu would've easily won if goku didn't use kaioken.

On grade 3, the speed decrease is not because of grade 3 form, but due to hindrance from bulky muscles. The movement is restricted, so you can't hit your opponent, which seems like an apparent speed loss.



(aren't we going off-topic here btw ?)

[buutenks]

What are you all arguing about?

[Hugo Boss]

What are you all arguing about?

The meaning of power level and how it affects other attributes, such as speed etc. Aparently, they forgot this thread is about GT and Super.

[Kaboom]

Allow me to quell things then.

"Power level" means nothing more than a raw amount of ki. That's what scouters measure, and that's what the numbers they give represent.

They do not reflect any kind of overall battle ability. Yajirobe had a PL of almost 1,000 during the Saiyan battle, but couldn't even use basic ki blasts, much less fly. Whereas Videl has some unknown but much lower power level, but learned to use what she's got for flying. An even more extreme example is Broli, who was born with a PL of 10,000 but had no actual ability to use it outside of instinct because he was a baby.

[LowRyder2005]

Allow me to quell things then.

"Power level" means nothing more than a raw amount of ki. That's what scouters measure, and that's what the numbers they give represent.

They do not reflect any kind of overall battle ability. Yajirobe had a PL of almost 1,000 during the Saiyan battle, but couldn't even use basic ki blasts, much less fly. Whereas Videl has some unknown but much lower power level, but learned to use what she's got for flying. An even more extreme example is Broli, who was born with a PL of 10,000 but had no actual ability to use it outside of instinct because he was a baby.

What's the basis of this?
I clearly remember Vegeta stating, at least in my country's anime dub, that BP are measuring of the overall ability of the fighter, hence including raw strenght, speed, in the Namek arc (speed and strenght being specifically mentioned by him). I believe it was somewhere alongside the first part of the arc, probably when referring to the fact that Vegeta's power level had increased from 18.000 to 24.000. Therefore, "speed" is inherently a part of the power level final "evaluation".
You can't explain stuff like Goku removing the weighted clothing and getting a higher power level without ki manipulation, otherwise.

It's more likely that ki manipulation can just influence or alter the readings, in case of suppressions.

[Khin]

What's the basis of this?
I clearly remember Vegeta stating, at least in my country's anime dub, that BP are measuring of the overall ability of the fighter, henceforth including raw strenght, speed, in the Namek arc (speed and strenght being specifically mentioned by him). I believe it was somewhere alongside the first part of the arc, probably when referring to the fact that Vegeta's power level had increased from 18.000 to 24.000.

It's more likely that ki manipulation can just influence or alter the readings, in case of suppressions.

PL only refer to the raw power.Goku was faster than Ginyu,but he has an inferior PL than him.Ginyu-Goku is also faster than Jheese yet Ginyu-Goku only have a PL of 23,000.

[LowRyder2005]

What's the basis of this?
I clearly remember Vegeta stating, at least in my country's anime dub, that BP are measuring of the overall ability of the fighter, henceforth including raw strenght, speed, in the Namek arc (speed and strenght being specifically mentioned by him). I believe it was somewhere alongside the first part of the arc, probably when referring to the fact that Vegeta's power level had increased from 18.000 to 24.000.

It's more likely that ki manipulation can just influence or alter the readings, in case of suppressions.

PL only refer to the raw power.Goku was faster than Ginyu,but he has a inferior PL than him.Ginyu-Goku is also faster than Jheese yet Ginyu-Goku only have a PL of 23,000.

It's a non-sequitur. Goku probably has the edge overall, while Ginyu has the edge in speed.
You can do better at school, yet someone of your classmates may be better in maths, right?

I will stress this again: Goku removes his weighted clothing, therefore increasing his speed without using ki and his power level rises.

[Kaboom]

What's the basis of this?

It's just basic obvious deduction. Scouters read and measure someone's ki. That measurement given in numbers is referred to as "battle power" or "power level." It's just the raw amount of ki energy you have to work with.

What I guess you're thinking about, and what Vegeta referred to, is that having more ki naturally boosts your fighting attributes. A higher "power level" typically increases your physical strength, speed, and durability. Some people have specialties and are more potent in one department or another (like how Nappa is extra durable or Butta is extra fast), but it's usually pretty even all-around.

What having a higher "power level" doesn't affect is things like talent, trained skill, natural abilities, and stuff like that. Those are all part of overall "fighting ability" too, and what I was talking about. Like the examples I pointed out with Yajirobe and Videl.

[LowRyder2005]

What's the basis of this?

It's just basic obvious deduction. Scouters read and measure someone's ki. That measurement given in numbers is referred to as "battle power" or "power level." It's just the raw amount of ki energy you have to work with.

What I guess you're thinking about, and what Vegeta referred to, is that having more ki naturally boosts your fighting attributes. A higher "power level" typically increases your physical strength, speed, and durability. Some people have specialties and are more potent in one department or another (like how Nappa is extra durable or Butta is extra fast), but it's usually pretty even all-around.

What having a higher "power level" doesn't affect is things like talent, trained skill, natural abilities, and stuff like that. Those are all part of overall "fighting ability" too, and what I was talking about. Like the examples I pointed out with Yajirobe and Videl.

It'd be perfectly okay, really, but it still can't explain the whole "weighted clothing" shenanigans. Which alone contradicts this otherwise legitimate line of reasoning.
Raditz scouts Goku, who has around 300 BP and, after Goku removes his clothing his BP without any kiai or apparent power-up, his power level goes up to 400. If the reading was entirely ki-dependant, his BP would have stayed the same regardless of the weight or the increase in speed.

[dbgtFO]

It'd be perfectly okay, really, but it still can't explain the whole "weighted clothing" shenanigans. Which alone contradicts this otherwise legitimate line of reasoning.
Raditz scouts Goku, who has around 300 BP and, after Goku removes his clothing his BP without any kiai or apparent power-up, his power level goes up to 400. If the reading was entirely ki-dependant, his BP would have stayed the same regardless of the weight or the increase in speed.

I can never get that part to make sense to me and usually just cop out with a lame out-of-universe excuse. Frankly I don't really think there's a lot of consistency with how the scouters are supposed to work, other than changing the numbers on it being a very rare ability and usually only seen, when dealing with beings who can transform.

[LowRyder2005]

It'd be perfectly okay, really, but it still can't explain the whole "weighted clothing" shenanigans. Which alone contradicts this otherwise legitimate line of reasoning.
Raditz scouts Goku, who has around 300 BP and, after Goku removes his clothing his BP without any kiai or apparent power-up, his power level goes up to 400. If the reading was entirely ki-dependant, his BP would have stayed the same regardless of the weight or the increase in speed.

I can never get that part to make sense to me and usually just cop out with a lame out-of-universe excuse. Frankly I don't really think there's a lot of consistency with how the scouters are supposed to work, other than changing the numbers on it being a very rare ability and usually only seen, when dealing with beings who can transform.

I honestly think it makes sense, actually: scouter readings are just, like eloquently put above by Hitiro, means to evaluate an outcome by comparing X's BP and Y's BP.
If I fight a faster opponent, I'll have more trouble dealing with them, therefore his BP will be represented by a higher number. Seems linear, to me.

[Hitiro]

1. Tenshinhan at power level 250 can beat Tenshinhan at PL whatever it was at 23rd TB (less than 250)
2. Tenshinhan at less than 250 can beat weighted goku (neither goku, nor anyone else contradict the statement , which was made multiple times) , so weighted goku is "much less than" 250
3. Weighted goku, he was stated to be much superior to daimao arc goku in everything but speed. So, daimao arc goku loses to 23rd TB weighted goku easliy. Daimao arc goku "Even more less than less than 250"
4. That goku beat daimao easily, who is "wayyy less than 250"

Power levels indicate who will win the fight, that's all. They don't indicate who is faster or stronger or more durable, but the combination of all factors.

Ginyu wasn't losing to goku. Goku was only slightly faster & ginyu was having a hard time to catch him, that's all. Ginyu would've easily won if goku didn't use kaioken.

On grade 3, the speed decrease is not because of grade 3 form, but due to hindrance from bulky muscles. The movement is restricted, so you can't hit your opponent, which seems like an apparent speed loss.

1. Of course Tenshinhan at a battle power of 250 would beat the Tenshinhan of the 23rd TB. They are the same person so their stats would increase the same only there would be more Ki for for the 250 Tenshinhan to increase his stats with. So this is a redundant point. If we assume that all Tenshinhan did is increase his Ki to get to 250 then it's obvious he's be superior. It would look something like this:

Tenshinhan(BoZ)
Ki: 250
Strength: 10
Speed: 10
Ki amped Strength: 2,500
Ki amped Speed: 2,500

Tenshinhan(23rd TB)
Ki: 208
Strength: 10
Speed: 10
Ki amped Strength: 2,080
Ki amped Speed: 2,080

But we aren't on about characters who are exactly the same stats-wise. We are on about characters with different stats. So again, this is a redundant point.

2. Again, I already give examples of characters with weaker battle powers that were supposed to give the stronger ones a difficult time. So no, weighted Goku does not need to be below 250. Especially considering his strength has increased to above his previous levels with only his speed apparently remaining the same. The battle power reading would come out as above 250.

3. Saying just because Goku would win easily here does not mean we have to lower the numbers. All it means is that Goku has superior stats that would allow him the win against somebody of an equal or higher level. Tenshinhan and Goku were supposed to be equal in strength but Goku had numerous advantageous factors that put him above Tenshinhan when they thought. Most notably his durability and speed.

4. Not once is it indicated Tenshinhan matched Goku's previous levels of strength. But it is indicated that he has surpassed him speed. Tenshinhan notes that this was the most important factor the battle. So he could still be below Goku in terms of Ki and other areas but make up for it in battle speed. It doesn't matter how much strength Goku has if he can't hit him. Goku also comes to this conclusion when he was using the SSJG3 form in the RoSaT.

As others have said battle powers will indicate who is the most likely to win. Otherwise they mean nothing because characters with lower battle powers can still win.

And Goku wasn't losing to Ginyu either until Jheese interfered. You say Ginyu would have easily won if Goku didn't use Kaioken but if Goku has superior speed even with a battle power of 90,000 then how is Ginyu supposed to land any hits?

I brought this up because you suggest that we shouldn't take the Daizenshuu's statement of there being no more Zenkai's as a fact because Tenshinhan was placed as below Piccolo Daimaou in terms of battle power towards the beginning of Z. I was merely pointing out that it doesn't have to be wrong because characters who have lower battle powers can have better stats than ones who have higher battle powers. As the fight with Goku against Ginyu can attest. There is nothing to say that Tenshinhan being weaker in terms of battle power to Piccolo Daimaou means he can't still beat him due to superior battle speed and better techniques like the Kikoho.

From this we can conclude that the GT battle powers wouldn't be affected by things like Zenkai's because they long stopped being a thing.

[dbgtFO]

I honestly think it makes sense, actually: scouter readings are just, like eloquently put above by Hitiro, means to evaluate an outcome by comparing X's BP and Y's BP.
If I fight a faster opponent, I'll have more trouble dealing with them, therefore his BP will be represented by a higher number. Seems linear, to me.

Well it doesn't to me. Vegeta explicitly mentioned, that a higher battle power, means higher speed too. If one's speed is also represented in one's battle power, then it makes no sense for Vegeta to make that distinction.
Always just seemed like Battle Power = Ki level and nothing else.