Unpopular DB opinions

[Nightmare Wheel]

And in the name of all the Saiyans that you have killed as well as the people of Planet Namek I WILL DEFEAT YOU

Tell that doesn't sound heroic

There's heroic and then there's gibberish a la, "I am truth."

[The Patrolman]

And in the name of all the Saiyans that you have killed as well as the people of Planet Namek I WILL DEFEAT YOU

Tell that doesn't sound heroic

There's heroic and then there's gibberish a la, "I am truth."

But isn't the "I am truth" considered heroic

[Nightmare Wheel]

But isn't the "I am truth" considered heroic

I guess. But the big difference is that the quote you posted actually makes sense as a statement. Really, what does "I am truth" actually mean? It's meant to sound heroic when it's completely devoid of real meaning.

[Polyphase Avatron]

But isn't the "I am truth" considered heroic

I guess. But the big difference is that the quote you posted actually makes sense as a statement. Really, what does "I am truth" actually mean? It's meant to sound heroic when it's completely devoid of real meaning.

What if the one speaking is actually the embodiment of the abstract concept of truth? Then it would make sense.

[Wezenheim]

But isn't the "I am truth" considered heroic

I guess. But the big difference is that the quote you posted actually makes sense as a statement. Really, what does "I am truth" actually mean? It's meant to sound heroic when it's completely devoid of real meaning.

What if the one speaking is actually the embodiment of the abstract concept of truth? Then it would make sense.

You mean like Fullmetal Alchemist?

[rereboy]

But isn't the "I am truth" considered heroic

Actually, that sounds more like something a dictator or a cult leader would say...

[Cipher]

Fans would have a much better understanding of the series -- and, I'd argue, enjoy it more -- if they all exposed themselves to at least a little Dr. Slump at some point. Not even in terms of being able to reconcile with the author's comedy background, but in terms of really appreciating the way the series both remains close to and amazingly evolves from previous material.

I do think it would resolve a lot of the self-serious debates though, as a bonus. It's almost surreal to hop on here realizing people are taking great issue with minor world-building and strength-related aspects of the series when you realize what it's a spiritual successor to. Not that Dragon Ball doesn't evolve into a shockingly consistent action series -- that's one of the cool, almost unbelievable things about it when you're more familiar with Toriyama's other work -- but, like, come on.

[Polyphase Avatron]

You mean like Fullmetal Alchemist?

Yeah. Like this.

[DBZAOTA482]

Maybe you felt only the payoff was comical in nature, but when I see someone trying to hit someone and the other person trying their best to figure out why the other person is mad instead of fighting in a tournament setting in "gag manga" I'm inclined to think that we're supposed to think that's funny. I thought it was funny.

First off, Goku didn't even know who she was which is what truly threw him off and he was justified in his confusion because she acted as though she knew him. All of Goku's friends were wondering who the fuck she was.... it wasn't trying to be funny in particular it was just reintroducing an OG character who hasn't been seen in a long time.

And despite how comical it may be to you, the fight itself was interpreted pretty seriously in context. None of the fighters had an easily definable weakness or shortcoming that thrown straight at their faces like they're both inexperienced beginners who are just starting out (Goku wasn't trying to win but he couldn't fool around with her either... especially not with what happened at the start of the fight), Chi-Chi herself is clearly far stronger and more skilled than a normal martial artist, and she was acknowledged as a legit fighter (even getting some praise/hype from Muten Roshi himself on her skill level). At worst it was a lighthearted fight that meant to reintroduce her character and marry her off the Goku.

You take every little thing and make way too much out of it. Goku isn't at all barely dodging her. It's played for laughs. The fact that she can jump high just proves that she's stronger than the average fighter, not that she's in the league of our heroes. In their marriage, Goku is afraid of Chichi getting angry. Why would he be afraid of someone who couldn't physically hurt him? It's played for laughs. Clearly we have two very different ideas of what constitutes a humorous fight.

I'm not...

It's not simply her jumping 50+ meters... it's her equaling Goku's casual jumping height in order to avoid an attack while in mid-action and still fought him (which Nam struggled to do with Goku in the 21st Budokai) even with intense speed while hovering in mid-air without bukujutsu (something not even seen till around the 22nd Budokai)... she even had a stance... as well as generally showing great speed and dexterity... Goku had hardly any room to breathe (she gained control of the conversation). He actually had to block, parry, and dodge her attacks.

BTW he "fears" her anger because she's his wife. His fear isn't genuine be it serious or not... he didn't "fear" her anger prior to marriage.

I can just as easily turn your logic around. Just because a fight shows a few moments like what you're referring to, doesn't equate to it being a serious fight.

Didn't say it completely serious but the fight as a whole was meant to show how crazy strong Jackie Chun was compared to even the greatest of Earth's fighters (Man-wolf had a 30th-dan in Kenpo... which 3 times higher than the highest real-life ranking) and hype up Jackie Chun vs. Tien.

She WAS a fly compared to him. Hell, Tenshinhan was as well. He was holding back against everyone except Piccolo. What's the joke with Chichi? Everything I wrote. I didn't say Yajirobe was destined for mediocrity. And the conversation between Chichi and Goku absolutely was humorous. Being a "plot point" doesn't mean it wasn't played for humor. Piccolo vs. Kami was completely different tonally. Why are you using words like "red flags" or taking this seemingly so personally about Chichi? And no, she wasn't destined for mediocrity, please stop putting words in my mouth. Could Chichi have been written to become a better fighter? Sure, she could've become a member of the team, but she didn't and that doesn't bother me. I was never a big fan of her character to begin with. And what is with your animus towards Chaozu?

I know, but I don't think the fact that Goku was actively suppressing his powers up till his fight with Piccolo should be relevant to the fight. Also, the conversation being "absolutely humorous" is subjective considering it was almost wasn't "in your face" with it's humor. Also, you're making it sound as though it was trying to ridicule her.

It's nothing against Chiaotzu it's just a simple fact he's the super non-talented and easy-to-see-through fighter without his telekinesis or bukujutsu.

I don't get the point of writing anything like this. Of course it isn't because I say it is. And it's not serious because you say so. I'm saying it's funny because the overall tone isn't serious. It's the funny fight of the tournament just like Namu vs. Ranfan or Kuririn vs. Chaozu. Each tournament has at least one that is played for humor.

Krillin vs. Chiaotzu is not really a good example of a fight played for laughs. Chiaotzu proved himself as a legit threat to Krillin with his skill and technique... even in terms of physical abilities he wasn't that far off from Krillin, and it showed Krillin's progression as a fighter.

If you wanna be technical then Goku vs. Jackie Chun was played for laughs too as it had funny moments... way more than Krillin vs. Chiaotzu or Goku vs. Chi-Chi.

Also, don't bring up Ranfan... she was a gimmick fighter who's only real sort of strength came from her sexuality which she uses to make men drop their guard... and her fight was comical as it played off the fact that a Buddhist monk was subdued by the charms of a woman who won literally with just a delicate neck chop once he got his shit together then Jackie Chun violates her. That's far more gag than anything in Goku vs. Chi-Chi.

Krillin vs. Chiaotzu, Goku vs. Chi-Chi, and Yamcha vs. Shen were just fights with funny moments.

So did Tao Pai Pai and I never claimed she wasn't better than most fighters in the DB world, just nowhere near the DB gang. And of course they would be amazed by her, they never heard of her and she came seemingly out of nowhere. She was worthy of making it to the final 8, but she wasn't getting past the first round, I don't think even against Tao Pai Pai. We don't know exactly how strong she is because she faced the absolute best and did nothing to him.

Tao Pai Pai wasn't that far off Krillin and Yamcha considering they were afraid of fighting Tien after seeing how easily he defeated Tao.

And it does mean something of they're amazed... amazement has more impact than simply being surprised. She went through the prelims of the most decisive year of the Tenkaichi Budokai with similar ease the other finalists have which is what impressed them and Yajirobe while under disguise was suggested to be nothing special at that point.

They didn't react in a "Oh wow, that girl can fight pretty well!" kinda it... it was in a "HOLY SHIT THAT GIRL CAN FIGHT!!!" way. They know already she's a participant for the hardest year of the Tenkaichi Budokai. And it's only hard to gauge her strength because you're making it harder than it needs to be.

A handicap is a handicap. Either way, it's not much of a feat if your opponent holds back one way or another.

It IS a credible feat because Goku is still incredibly strong regardless of which level he's suppressed .

Hence "under the umbrella. In any event, what Goku did to defeat Chichi and Kuririn was similar. Not the same, SIMILAR. In both cases, neither had a true chance of defeating Goku, and Kuririn only did well because Goku was using his match-strength, i.e., he was holding back. Chichi didn't even do THAT well. This whole thing about Chichi started when you claimed she was nerfed. She wasn't. What did we truly see of her fighting skills? She cut the head off of a dinosaur and she couldn't touch Goku. How you figure she was nerfed when what she did wasn't particularly impressive. Yes, in real life that would be impressive, but with in the context of the show, not being able to faze Goku doesn't give you much to go on. Her power wasn't reduced, her character changed and stopped fighting. Piccolo was nerfed when one of Freeza's peons in the last movie was able to fight him one on one.

No, they are not similar... Krillin was in the middle of fighting Goku when he blitzed him and there he was not even able to keep up with the sounds of Goku's movement as he drew close to him as he tries his best to track Goku down then was sent flying gently out the ring with 8 super light chops... Krillin wasn't caught by surprise per se... he was simply no match for Goku's match-level (he even says so)... while Chi-Chi dared Goku to take her down when speaking about the proposal which he does with a special move that was suggested to be especially powerful (he had to infuse a significant amount of energy into his fist) and was a shockwave technique Kami specifically taught him that Piccolo himself was surprised he knew (as it was something his Mazoku clan uses). It doesn't necessarily suggest a huge power gap as she was caught totally off-guard (she even said that Goku became even better than she thought) and she didn't start to realize Goku was worlds above her till his fight with Tien.

Chi-Chi against Suppressed Weighted Goku was like an amateur boxer against a MMA Fighter... said boxer may be able to keep up with the seasoned fighter due to raw power and talent but the one with the superior training is more likely to win in the end. Krillin against Match-level Goku was like a child trying to fight an adult... it's basically fighting a losing battle.

Also, Krillin only did well against Match-level Goku (which isn't even his true power) because he was barely even trying. Once he got a little serious Krillin was hopeless and this is well before he blitzed him.

No normal human can simply chunk a boomerang cutter with enough force to behead a T-rex and she didn't just cut off a dinosaur's head... she effortlessly outran the T-Rex then cut it's head off while barely noticing, then the blade still had enough kinetic energy to return back to her and she caught it before it hit the ground. That's not even considered normal by Dragon Ball standards... Yamcha and Puar were actually shocked by how much she can do despite being scared. That's insane amount of potential and talent.

Keep into perspective she was a seemingly ordinary 12-year-old girl so it's unknown if she was ever trained for real by Gyumao and she's already capable of that much.

As in immoral?

No, but it's annoying and distorts source material.

He wasn't fighting him on the same level. He has one thing over Goku, but Goku had everything else. He was stronger, had more stamina, and was more skilled. The gap wasn't between them wasn't a gulf like the one between Goku and Chichi, hence why Goku felt the need to take off his weighted training gear, but I don't think he was still in any danger of losing the match regardless.

He was... just barely... initially. Nothing says Weighted Goku was actually stronger than Tien. Roshi only noted his breathing pattern was different as he learned how to move without being wasteful (it was kinda obvious Goku was outmaneuvering him) ... and once Tien used his true speed Goku could only see him.

Goku had to remove his weights to completely gain the upper hand.

[Analytical Delusion]

You know, I do feel like the 23rd TB arc is a bit overrated. Seems contrived at that point to have such a structured competition, after the events surrounding Piccolo Daimao three years earlier. Now, I understand the TB had become an institution by that point, but it seemed to outlive its relevance. Couldn't Piccolo have surfaced somewhere else? Yes, Piccolo Daimao resented martial artists so attacking the 22nd TB made sense, but it felt like his mission/goal had shifted from wanting to eliminate martial artists, to a singular desire for revenge on Goku (yes, I know he told the other combatants they were next, and destroyed the TB venue and much of the island, but world domination and the extermination of apt fighters seemed ancillary to killing Goku at that point).

In addition, the fights aren't terrific (Goku vs Piccolo aside). Some have their moments (God vs Yamcha, Kuririn vs Piccolo, Ten vs Goku, God vs Piccolo), but there's very little suspense, and after the artifical drama, they're all pretty much one-sided affairs. All of the preliminary fights (aside from Goku vs Chi Chi) really just serve to hype up the combatants (I believe there were exclamations after the preliminaries that this was the best top 8 ever, with King Chappa losing early, then someone else noted that the semifinalists were a clear level among everybody else, and finally I believe God noted himself that Goku had well-surpassed him).

It's not a bad arc, but it didn't check a ton of boxes for me. If you're going to try and incorporate an ensemble cast, you can give appropriate-strength enemies to, or situations to the strengths of non-Goku heroes. The Red Ribbon Army did a great job of this (up until Goku finally invades RRA headquarters, which to me is also perhaps the low point of that arc). Alternatively, some of the other arcs (mostly from the "Z" portion, but the Piccolo Daimao arc as well) achieved some sort of balance by making Goku a vacant hero. It perhaps became a bit of a trope, but I think it worked well.

I don't know how I'd fix it...maybe having God and Piccolo clash before the tournament, with an epic fight? it definitely was missing a second major battle for me, as I noted above. There would probably have had to have been more world-building earlier on, because while the TB felt played out at that point, there was really no other direction Toriyama could go...what else had meaning enough, that it wouldn't feel like it was out of nowhere for Piccolo to make his appearance?

Just thinking aloud. But for me, the 23rd TB is probably the weakest arc of the heart of the story (22nd TB through Cell). It had some terrific results (making way for Goku to have a son, allowing Goku to finally win the TB after being the runner-up the first two times, there was some value in Goku saving the world, this time more publicly, the surpassing God narrative, introducing the Piccolo/God/Shenlong relationship), but I feel like it could have been better if it was written and/or executed differently.

[ABED]

Couldn't Piccolo have surfaced somewhere else? Yes, Piccolo Daimao resented martial artists so attacking the 22nd TB made sense, but it felt like his mission/goal had shifted from wanting to eliminate martial artists, to a singular desire for revenge on Goku (yes, I know he told the other combatants they were next, and destroyed the TB venue and much of the island, but world domination and the extermination of apt fighters seemed ancillary to killing Goku at that point).

Piccolo appeared where he knew Goku would be.

[Analytical Delusion]

Couldn't Piccolo have surfaced somewhere else? Yes, Piccolo Daimao resented martial artists so attacking the 22nd TB made sense, but it felt like his mission/goal had shifted from wanting to eliminate martial artists, to a singular desire for revenge on Goku (yes, I know he told the other combatants they were next, and destroyed the TB venue and much of the island, but world domination and the extermination of apt fighters seemed ancillary to killing Goku at that point).

Piccolo appeared where he knew Goku would be.

That's a good point actually, since God told Goku he couldn't see his friends, and would spend the remaining time training. Maybe it could've been interrupted, a la the Buu Saga?

[Kuririn Fan]

No, the TB needed to play out perfectly so that Goku can finally win and become the world's strongest.

[jcogginsa]

Plus, competing in the TB did give Piccolo an advantage, since Goku wouldn't try to kill him in the fight

[Analytical Delusion]

No, the TB needed to play out perfectly so that Goku can finally win and become the world's strongest.

True, and I know it meant a lot to Goku, but didn't training with God and defeating the greatest threat to earth (Piccolo Daimao) transcend that? EDIT: As a counterpoint to my question, I guess Goku rejecting the offer to become the next God after the tournament shows he didn't care about divine matters. Maybe being the strongest was all that mattered.

Plus, competing in the TB did give Piccolo an advantage, since Goku wouldn't try to kill him in the fight

That's a very good point, and one I haven't considered. When I think of Goku not killing Piccolo, it's because of the God/Shenlong connectedness angle.

[ekrolo2]

No, the TB needed to play out perfectly so that Goku can finally win and become the world's strongest.

True, and I know it meant a lot to Goku, but didn't training with God and defeating the greatest threat to earth (Piccolo Daimao) transcend that? EDIT: As a counterpoint to my question, I guess Goku rejecting the offer to become the next God after the tournament shows he didn't care about divine matters. Maybe being the strongest was all that mattered.

Plus, competing in the TB did give Piccolo an advantage, since Goku wouldn't try to kill him in the fight

That's a very good point, and one I haven't considered. When I think of Goku not killing Piccolo, it's because of the God/Shenlong connectedness angle.

I'd say it's a 60-70% him wanting Piccolo to stick around because he's the only one who can kind of compete with him and 40-30% the Dragon Ball connection.

[jcogginsa]

Actually, what i meant was

Piccolo was wagering on Goku not killing him during the fight, because doing so would disqualify him. That meant Piccolo could fight to kill all he wanted, since it didn't matter if he was disqualified once the fight was over

[zDBZ]

- We Gotta Power > Cha-La Head Cha-La

- The Faulconer score, while flawed, had many virtues and could at times be more effective than the original soundtrack.

- I don't think the idea that Gohan should have stayed the hero of the Buu Saga is unpopular, but I wonder about this notion: Goku should never have come back for Buu at all, save maybe a very brief cameo at the end.

- Somewhat ironically, given my last opinion: the first two-thirds of Buu, plot holes and all, may be the best in all of Z. Thanks to the last third, the saga as a whole is the "worst" from a technical standpoint, so far as the writing goes.

- Funi's decision in their original dub to have Vegeta lament being taken from his father and mourn his death while pleading with Goku was an improvement over the original, in theory if not in execution.

- The Great Saiyaman is entertaining in the right dosage, his costume looks pretty good, and the "joke" of everyone mocking Gohan for the outfit was far more annoying than the actual superhero concept in the first place.

- If none of the others from the original run of thirteen Z movies fit, I count Bojack and Wrath of the Dragon as canon.

- Entertaining though he may be, Beerus seems an uncomfortable fit into the DB world, in design and function.

- Related: BoG is not the best of the films. If other DB movies suffered from one-note villains and a lack of character development, than BoG suffers from having virtually no tension, largely due to the comic antics of the antagonist.

- Original Funi Bulma > Kai Funi Bulma

- Goten and Trunks as a team may be annoying, but they're annoying in a fun way. And Goten by himself or with Gohan is a great cute kid character.

- Vegito isn't that impressive.

[apex_pretador]

You know, I do feel like the 23rd TB arc is a bit overrated. Seems contrived at that point to have such a structured competition, after the events surrounding Piccolo Daimao three years earlier. Now, I understand the TB had become an institution by that point, but it seemed to outlive its relevance. Couldn't Piccolo have surfaced somewhere else?

Goku would've been found there.

Yes, Piccolo Daimao resented martial artists so attacking the 22nd TB made sense, but it felt like his mission/goal had shifted from wanting to eliminate martial artists, to a singular desire for revenge on Goku (yes, I know he told the other combatants they were next, and destroyed the TB venue and much of the island, but world domination and the extermination of apt fighters seemed ancillary to killing Goku at that point).

His dad was killed by goku, it was his duty to take revenge on that guy.

In addition, the fights aren't terrific (Goku vs Piccolo aside). Some have their moments (God vs Yamcha, Kuririn vs Piccolo, Ten vs Goku, God vs Piccolo),

What's left? We get one of , if not the best fight

but there's very little suspense, and after the artifical drama, they're all pretty much one-sided affairs. All of the preliminary fights (aside from Goku vs Chi Chi) really just serve to hype up the combatants (I believe there were exclamations after the preliminaries that this was the best top 8 ever, with King Chappa losing early, then someone else noted that the semifinalists were a clear level among everybody else, and finally I believe God noted himself that Goku had well-surpassed him).

What else is supposed to happen when you have son (and reincarnation) of the demon himself , who is much stronger now & GOD in the tournament fighting.

It's not a bad arc, but it didn't check a ton of boxes for me. If you're going to try and incorporate an ensemble cast, you can give appropriate-strength enemies to, or situations to the strengths of non-Goku heroes. The Red Ribbon Army did a great job of this (up until Goku finally invades RRA headquarters, which to me is also perhaps the low point of that arc). Alternatively, some of the other arcs (mostly from the "Z" portion, but the Piccolo Daimao arc as well) achieved some sort of balance by making Goku a vacant hero. It perhaps became a bit of a trope, but I think it worked well.

It is just a tournament, where the strongest people in the world participate.

[Victorious]

Well I still believe the controversial power chain for movie 5.

SSJ Goku [movie 5] >> Final Form Coola >>> Kaioken x 20 Goku >>> base Goku [movie 5] ~ SSJ Goku [Namek] > 100% true form Freeza = true form Coola.

A lot of people believed this 5 years ago or so, but it's died down. It's just a silly movie but I felt that was implied by the dialogue.


Not many other unopopular opinions. How about Mai being the most attractive DB/DBZ female? Not that I'm big into cartoon character women or anything but when this question randomly comes up on DB fora I say Mai and i'm the only one. lol