Nappa's Battle Power (4000 vs. higher)

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Re: The Old Debate

Post by Khin » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:25 am

LightBing wrote:I'm answering directly to your point above. You said it didn't make sense because of the 5000 line. Like I said, he and Vegeta both know Goku's at 8000 plus. Nappa still decides to fight, he gets a beat-down. Then Vegeta says this:
So yeah, both still believed Nappa had a shot. After another exchange were Nappa and Goku were even, which finished with Goku blocking his opponent's best attack with a kamehameha.
Only then did Vegeta said, you're done I'm gonna have to intervene.
You literally answered what I'm supposed to answer.Vegeta knew that Nappa still have his trump card,so he think that he still have a chance,but Nappa is out of his mind that he didn't even think about it.Even so,Goku said that Nappa was nothing special.Now we know,that Nappa can't control his Ki,so the ''nothing special'' Nappa that Goku was reffering was the 4,000 - 4,500 Nappa.I don't think just being around 14% stronger (7,000 vs. 8,000) than your opponent means that your foe is nothing special to you.So the only way your point will work out if Nappa did get stronger while fighting Goku.
Chapter: 225 (DBZ 31), P1.2
Goku: “You may brag a lot, but you’re nothing special.”
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Re: The Old Debate

Post by Ash57 » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:27 am

SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:
Analytic wrote:Not only had Nappa seen every Z-Fighter before him increase their initial battle power, but was explicitly told by Vegeta that these were the type of guys who hid their true power. Why would he expect 5,000 to be Goku's max?

If Nappa "shitting himself" automatically means inferiority, then Vegeta must be weaker too, since he also "shit himself."
Vegeta only reminded him with their ability to hide there battles power right after the line where Nappa shitted himself.And there's nothing in the line i posted above that suggested that Vegeta is also scared of Goku.Heck,he even smiled when Goku arrived.
No no no. Vegeta was also "scared" when a 5,000 power level showed. According to you, Vegeta << 5,000 then
It's simple, Nappa was surprised that there was someone with a power level of 5,000, considering that the max they saw in the scouter was a power level of 2,800. Later, Nappa shows confidence against Goku, proving that he was only SURPRISED at best.
You literally answered what I'm supposed to answer.Vegeta knew that Nappa still have his trump card,so he think that he still have a chance,but Nappa is out of his mind that he didn't even think about it.Even so,Goku said that Nappa was nothing special.Now we know,that Nappa can't control his Ki,so the ''nothing special'' Nappa that Goku was reffering was the 4,000 Nappa.I don't think just being around 14% stronger (7,000 vs. 8,000) than your opponent means that your foe is nothing special to you.So the only way your point will work out if Nappa did get stronger while fighting Goku.

Chapter: 225 (DBZ 31), P1.2
Goku: “You may brag a lot, but you’re nothing special.”
This was much before Nappa started to fight with full effort. Stop twisting context.
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Re: The Old Debate

Post by Khin » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:34 am

Ash57 wrote:No no no. Vegeta was also "scared" when a 5,000 power level showed. According to you, Vegeta << 5,000 then
It's simple, Nappa was surprised that there was someone with a power level of 5,000, considering that the max they saw in the scouter was a power level of 2,800. Later, Nappa shows confidence against Goku, proving that he was only SURPRISED at best.
Again.What line that suggest that Vegeta is also scared ? He is the one who knew it was Goku and the one who think he was surpressing his power.
This was much before Nappa started to fight with full effort. Stop twisting context.
Did you even read what i posted ? Unlike Goku and the earthlings,Nappa can't control his Ki at will,so he is always at his full power everytime.So the nothing special Nappa that Goku was refering was Full Power Nappa,unless he got stronger while fighting Goku as Kaboom suggested.

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Re: The Old Debate

Post by Ash57 » Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:49 am

SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:
Ash57 wrote:No no no. Vegeta was also "scared" when a 5,000 power level showed. According to you, Vegeta << 5,000 then
It's simple, Nappa was surprised that there was someone with a power level of 5,000, considering that the max they saw in the scouter was a power level of 2,800. Later, Nappa shows confidence against Goku, proving that he was only SURPRISED at best.
Again.What line that suggest that Vegeta is also scared ? He is the one who knew it was Goku and the one who think he was surpressing his power.

And what line suggests that Nappa is scared too, besides he saying that the scouter was malfunctioning? He was surprised because he didn't thought that Goku could power up of 400 to 5,000 in much less than a year. Vegeta's face and he being alarmed proves that he was really "scared
This was much before Nappa started to fight with full effort. Stop twisting context.
Did you even read what i posted ? Unlike Goku and the earthlings,Nappa can't control his Ki at will,so he is always at his full power everytime.So the nothing special Nappa that Goku was refering was Full Power Nappa,unless he got stronger while fighting Goku as Kaboom suggested.
He can't control his ki, but has some kind of control of his power, this is implied in the manga. Goku said that:
-Nappa was fighting a lot better
-Nappa would take all day to beat.

Nappa's feats:
-Dodged kicks.
-Dodged a few punches.
-Took absolutely no damage from Goku's Kamehameha.
-Was praised by a power supposedly 2x his power.

..
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Re: The Old Debate

Post by Khin » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:03 am

Ash57 wrote:He can't control his ki, but has some kind of control of his power, this is implied in the manga. Goku said that:
-Nappa was fighting a lot better
-Nappa would take all day to beat.

Nappa's feats:
-Dodged kicks.
-Dodged a few punches.
-Took absolutely no damage from Goku's Kamehameha.
-Was praised by a power supposedly 2x his power.

..
What ? Ki = Power.Only the durability,speed and lifting strength doesn't translate into Battle Powers.

I saw the line.Goku said that he really gets serious,which could only mean he is more concentrated rather than throwing random punches and kicks.And Goku said that he is tough as hell,which means that Goku was referring how durable Nappa is,which is irrelevant to his Power Level.And he just got hit by a little part of Goku's Kamehameha,not all of it.
Chapter: 226 (DBZ 32), P7.4/P8.1-4
Context: after Goku deflects Nappa's mouth blast
Nappa: It…It can’t be!!! That was my…my best technique!!! He…He just bounced it off!!”
Goku: “He really is a tough bastard! Even though he should have been hurt a little bit by my Kamehameha!! At this rate this looks like it will take forever...”
Why does dodging have anything to do with this ? Both Goku and Piccolo managed to dodge some of Raditz' attacks despite being around 4x weaker than him.

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Re: The Old Debate

Post by LightBing » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:16 am

@ SSJ3 Vegeta

If I'm understanding correctly you're saying Nappa started at 4000 but got stronger during the fight... Yet you say he can't raise his ki. But somehow Vegeta knew Nappa was capable of doing it.
You're basically agreeing with those that say 4000 is unlikely.

Your justification makes Nappa an outliner. Nobody else from those incapable of modifying their ki, showed similar capability.
What I see is Nappa recovering his composure and fighting much more focused. Neither Goku, Vegeta or Nappa point any power spike. Simply him being "serious", which implies he wasn't before, therefore the power jump you theorize isn't there.

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Re: The Old Debate

Post by Kuririn Fan » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:21 am

SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:
Kuririn Fan wrote:Nappa is 4000.
Great explanation. :clap: :clap:

It's just a joke obviously.
I will take official Daizenshuu numbers over your made up ones any day.

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Re: The Old Debate

Post by Ash57 » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:28 am

Kuririn Fan wrote:
SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:
Kuririn Fan wrote:Nappa is 4000.
Great explanation. :clap: :clap:

It's just a joke obviously.
I will take official Daizenshuu numbers over your made up ones any day.

Great, we found someone thinking Daizenshuu >> manga.
What ? Ki = Power.Only the durability,speed and lifting strength doesn't translate into Battle Powers.

I saw the line.Goku said that he really gets serious,which could only mean he is more concentrated rather than throwing random punches and kicks.And Goku said that he is tough as hell,which means that Goku was referring how durable Nappa is,which is irrelevant to his Power Level.And he just got hit by a little part of Goku's Kamehameha,not all of it.
Great², Nappa's durability would make him fight with Goku for hours. Cool. But looks like that this was not what happened to Recoome, even with Recoome being a tank just like Nappa was. Recoome was one-shotted by Goku, and let's remember that the gap between Goku and Recoome was the same gap between Nappa and Goku according to you.

No amount of concentration or durability would make Nappa endure hits from Goku with 4k. Proved by the fight with Recoome.

Why does dodging have anything to do with this ? Both Goku and Piccolo managed to dodge some of Raditz' attacks despite being around 4x weaker than him.[/quote]

They BARELY dodged ONE attack from Raditz, while Goku couldn't land a hit on Nappa and was exchanging blows with him. 4,000 = 8,000? then 45,000 = 90,000.
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Re: The Old Debate

Post by Kuririn Fan » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:30 am

Where is stated otherwise in the manga?

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Re: The Old Debate

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:30 am

Has anyone considered the possibility Goku simply powered down a bit once he saw Nappa wasn't a big deal, allowing for that short burst of them being more even to happen?
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Re: The Old Debate

Post by Khin » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:37 am

LightBing wrote:@ SSJ3 Vegeta

If I'm understanding correctly you're saying Nappa started at 4000 but got stronger during the fight... Yet you say he can't raise his ki. But somehow Vegeta knew Nappa was capable of doing it.
You're basically agreeing with those that say 4000 is unlikely.

Your justification makes Nappa an outliner. Nobody else from those incapable of modifying their ki, showed similar capability.
What I see is Nappa recovering his composure and fighting much more focused. Neither Goku, Vegeta or Nappa point any power spike. Simply him being "serious", which implies he wasn't before, therefore the power jump you theorize isn't there.
As Toriyama said.Saiyans can grow stronger by fighting strong opponents.It's just the same as getting a powerup or zenkais,which doesn't translate into Nappa knowing how to control his Ki.Saiyans get zenkai despite not knowing how to control their Ki.
"I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15."
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Re: The Old Debate

Post by LightBing » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:37 am

ekrolo2 wrote:Has anyone considered the possibility Goku simply powered down a bit once he saw Nappa wasn't a big deal, allowing for that short burst of them being more even to happen?
Considering Goku, says the fight would take forever after that part, it seems unlikely. He still had to fight Vegeta after. It would be against his interests having a dragged out fight with the bald guy. It implies Nappa is close enough that Goku wouldn't be able to win quickly.

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Re: The Old Debate

Post by Khin » Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:45 am

Ash57 wrote:Great, we found someone thinking Daizenshuu >> manga.
Where was Nappa being 7,000 stated in the manga ? Daizenshuu,V-Jump and Movie Pamphlet >>> Fan assumptions.
Great², Nappa's durability would make him fight with Goku for hours. Cool. But looks like that this was not what happened to Recoome, even with Recoome being a tank just like Nappa was. Recoome was one-shotted by Goku, and let's remember that the gap between Goku and Recoome was the same gap between Nappa and Goku according to you.

No amount of concentration or durability would make Nappa endure hits from Goku with 4k. Proved by the fight with Recoome.

They BARELY dodged ONE attack from Raditz, while Goku couldn't land a hit on Nappa and was exchanging blows with him. 4,000 = 8,000? then 45,000 = 90,000.
You can't compare Recoomes fight against Nappa.In Recoome's case,he was flat out hitted in the pressure point.Vegeta explains how Goku's attack against Recoome is no ordinary attack.
Chapter: 280 (DBZ 86), P14.1-3
Context: after Goku knocks out Recoom
Vegeta: “T-that just now wasn’t an attack…He can’t fool my eyes…It was a stupendously heavy blow…He’s clearly surpassed the fighting level of Saiyans…He’s a completely different person than the one I fought on Earth…What the hell kind of training did he do?...Was the legend true…!? Is he a Super Saiyan…!?”
Yeah,because Goku was able to tank and dodge hits from 50% Final Form Freeza.Is Base Goku =< 50% Final Form Freeza ?

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Re: Nappa's Battle Power (4000 vs. higher)

Post by apex_pretador » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:13 am

nappa is one tier below goku
Piccolo is 1 tier below nappa
Krillin & Tien are 1 tier below piccolo


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Re: Nappa's Battle Power (4000 vs. higher)

Post by VegettoEX » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:34 am

apex_pretador wrote:nappa is one tier below goku
Piccolo is 1 tier below nappa
Krillin & Tien are 1 tier below piccolo


/thread
This is not a valid way to contribute in this community.
SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:
Kuririn Fan wrote:Nappa is 4000.
Great explanation. :clap: :clap:

It's just a joke obviously.
Neither is this / are these.

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Re: The Old Debate

Post by Ash57 » Sat Feb 27, 2016 11:54 am

SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:
Ash57 wrote:Great, we found someone thinking Daizenshuu >> manga.
Where was Nappa being 7,000 stated in the manga ? Daizenshuu,V-Jump and Movie Pamphlet >>> Fan assumptions.
He was never stated to be over 7,000, but is implied to be at the very least around Goku's level of 8,000. Anything from manga surpasses guidebook, because it is the canon and original source.
Great², Nappa's durability would make him fight with Goku for hours. Cool. But looks like that this was not what happened to Recoome, even with Recoome being a tank just like Nappa was. Recoome was one-shotted by Goku, and let's remember that the gap between Goku and Recoome was the same gap between Nappa and Goku according to you.

No amount of concentration or durability would make Nappa endure hits from Goku with 4k. Proved by the fight with Recoome.

They BARELY dodged ONE attack from Raditz, while Goku couldn't land a hit on Nappa and was exchanging blows with him. 4,000 = 8,000? then 45,000 = 90,000.
You can't compare Recoomes fight against Nappa.In Recoome's case,he was flat out hitted in the pressure point.Vegeta explains how Goku's attack against Recoome is no ordinary attack.
Chapter: 280 (DBZ 86), P14.1-3
Context: after Goku knocks out Recoom
Vegeta: “T-that just now wasn’t an attack…He can’t fool my eyes…It was a stupendously heavy blow…He’s clearly surpassed the fighting level of Saiyans…He’s a completely different person than the one I fought on Earth…What the hell kind of training did he do?...Was the legend true…!? Is he a Super Saiyan…!?”
Yeah,because Goku was able to tank and dodge hits from 50% Final Form Freeza.Is Base Goku =< 50% Final Form Freeza ?
first -
He was never stated to be over 7,000, but is implied to be at the very least around Goku's level of 8,000. Anything from manga surpasses guidebook, because it is the canon and original source.

second -Vegeta was talking about the power of the attack. many one-shotting situations in the manga proves that you only need to hit the opponent with an attack and have a power much higher than your opponent in order to one-shot. Also, Nappa was hit by a 8,000 Goku in the same "pressure point" as Recoome, and yet wasn't one-shoted. And this was Nappa before using full effort, to highlight. Nappa's durability = Nappa's power

WHERE Goku TANKED a hit from 50% Freeza? Being hitted and surviving is not the same thing as tanking(NOWHERE near that), also, i've already explained that, you're ignoring my explanations and just repeating things again & again. Freeza was toying with Goku, while Goku was using his full base power vs. Nappa(just like he was vs. Recoome) and Nappa wasn't one-shotted by Goku's hit. There are only 2 options in Recoome's case: Goku was suppressed, Goku was alll-out. And both help my point.

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Re: Nappa's Battle Power (4000 vs. higher)

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:10 pm

^Maybe Goku didn't hit Nappa with a "stupendously heavy blow" like he did Recoome.

Ayways, 5-6k is the highest I'll go.
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Re: Nappa's Battle Power (4000 vs. higher)

Post by Ash57 » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:14 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:^Maybe Goku didn't hit Nappa with a "stupendously heavy blow" like he did Recoome.

Ayways, 5-6k is the highest I'll go.
"stupendously heavy blow" means full-powered blow, unless Goku can create more power than his full from absolutely nowhere imo
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Re: Nappa's Battle Power (4000 vs. higher)

Post by Khin » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:44 pm

Ash57 wrote:first -
He was never stated to be over 7,000, but is implied to be at the very least around Goku's level of 8,000. Anything from manga surpasses guidebook, because it is the canon and original source.

second -Vegeta was talking about the power of the attack. many one-shotting situations in the manga proves that you only need to hit the opponent with an attack and have a power much higher than your opponent in order to one-shot. Also, Nappa was hit by a 8,000 Goku in the same "pressure point" as Recoome, and yet wasn't one-shoted. And this was Nappa before using full effort, to highlight. Nappa's durability = Nappa's power

WHERE Goku TANKED a hit from 50% Freeza? Being hitted and surviving is not the same thing as tanking(NOWHERE near that), also, i've already explained that, you're ignoring my explanations and just repeating things again & again. Freeza was toying with Goku, while Goku was using his full base power vs. Nappa(just like he was vs. Recoome) and Nappa wasn't one-shotted by Goku's hit. There are only 2 options in Recoome's case: Goku was suppressed, Goku was alll-out. And both help my point.

Thus said the mightiest warrior.
- And you're ignoring the implications that put Nappa below 5,000.There is literally 3 official sources that put him at that level.And you still ignore them because you think your assumptions are facts.I'm not saying you're wrong,but you're ignoring official sources by using things that was not flat out stated proven in the manga.

- That's the point.The power that Goku put in his attack against Recoome is no ordinary.And no,nothing in the manga was shown that Goku throw a massive unordinary blow at Nappa.Except in the last attack where he got hitted in his back.

- Did you even see the fight ? Goku was getting his ass kicked 90% of the time.If we go by your logic,a single kick from Freeza would obliterate Goku since he is 20x stronger than him.I'm not talking about the damage that was dealt,i'm talking about the power gap that you make it looks like just because Y is trading blows with X that means that Y is not much weaker than X.Goku was able trade blows with Raditz for a bit despite being about 4x weaker than him,does that mean that Goku is not much weaker than Raditz now ? Vegeta tanked a Kamehameha from Kaiokenx4 Goku who is about twice as strong as him,does that mean that Vegeta is not much weaker than Goku now.Even so,Durability =/= Power Level.
Ash57 wrote:
DBZAOTA482 wrote:^Maybe Goku didn't hit Nappa with a "stupendously heavy blow" like he did Recoome.

Ayways, 5-6k is the highest I'll go.
"stupendously heavy blow" means full-powered blow, unless Goku can create more power than his full from absolutely nowhere imo
That's not how it works.For example,You punch your arm and you will take mild damage,punch your d*ck and i assure you will be crying in pain.Goku hit Recoome to a part where it will do serious damage to him.
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Re: Nappa's Battle Power (4000 vs. higher)

Post by apex_pretador » Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:51 pm

SSJ3 Vegeta wrote: If we go by your logic,a single kick from Freeza would obliterate Goku since he is 20x stronger than him.I'm not talking about the damage that was dealt,i'm talking about the power gap that you make it looks like just because Y is trading blows with X that means that Y is not much weaker than X
Cell jrs were hitting humans who were no more than a million at best, and the didn't die from one blow from opponents 1000x stronger than them.

Dying is not casual IMO , in most cases.
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