Funi names: a review (update: Namek)

[ABED]

Everyday real life Japanese uses quite a few loanwords from English. Everyone knows what the English word "Super" (or if you will, "suupaa") means. On the other hand, no one who hasn't studied Japanese will know what （超）"Chou" means.

I'm not claiming they would or even that they should, but why is okay for the Japanese to use loanwords and not the dub?

Because loan words have a completely different context in Japanese than they do in English. They have an entire alphabet solely for loan words. The two aren't comparable.

They aren't a different context. How is a different alphabet relevant to why the dub shouldn't use the Japanese names? Is it because the American audience won't understand? Does that really stop people from enjoying the show? This is a far smaller issue than I think you are making it out to be. How many people do you think know Karaoke means "Empty orchestra" or care when they are belting out Imaginary Lover?

[Kamiccolo9]

Context was a poor choice of words. I mean connotation. And I'm not making an issue out of this. I'm saying that the English and Japanese languages are different, and just because one does something, that doesn't mean that the other can do the same and preserve the intended meaning.

[ABED]

Context was a poor choice of words. I mean connotation. And I'm not making an issue out of this. I'm saying that the English and Japanese languages are different, and just because one does something, that doesn't mean that the other can do the same and preserve the intended meaning.

I get that, but adaptation is going to cause these issues, there's no way around it. For instance, how do you adapt Suppaman? Do you keep the name so people get that he's a play on Superman or do you call him Sourman (like FUNi did)? Not only does adapting different languages cause issues like this, even adapting stories in a different time can cause issues.

[Darnis]

How would you have translated Nyoi-bo (如意棒) and Kinto-un (筋斗雲)?
Do you mind them being called Power Pole and Flying Nimbus?

[Herms]

Next up, some Chinese-derived names, just to get the really tricky stuff out of the way. Japanese is tough enough on its own, so when you get names that are Japanese approximations of Chinese names it can get extra screwy. I’m sadly reminded that I promised to do a full-fledged guide entirely on this subject, but I’ll try and give the simplest run-through possible here.

Chiaotzu
Lots of people think this spelling is some crazy thing Funi made up, but in fact the character is named after the Chinese word for potstickers (餃子), and “Chiaotzu” is the way this word is spelled under the Wade-Giles system for writing Chinese names in English. Meaning, it’s a perfectly valid choice…more so than “Chaozu”, which is simply the Japanese approximation of the original Chinese word, roughly equivalent to calling Trunks “Torankusu”. That’s right, Funi handled this name better than Viz! It seems like Funi must have had someone around in the early days who know Chinese, though apparently this mysterious person was only around half the time.

The Japanese word for potstickers is gyouza, but this is explicitly not how Chiaotzu’s name is read (there’s even a joke about this in the series). While the Chinese word for potstickers is spelt “Chiaotzu” under the Wade-Giles system, the Pinyin spelling is “Jiaozi” (despite at first brush looking completely different, the pronunciation is essentially the same; both spellings are merely attempts to capture non-English sounds using English letters). “Jiaozi” is therefore also a valid spelling for the character’s name, and it’s the spelling for postickers that you are most likely to be taught if you take a Mandarin Chinese course.

Tien
More complicated. His original name comes directly from the dish 天津飯/Tenshinhan, which means "Tianjin rice" since it was supposedly made with rice from Tianjin, China (this dish is served in Japan as an example of “Chinese food”, but in fact originates in Japan, similar to pseudo-Chinese dishes like Cashew Chicken in the US). Unlike Chiaotzu, Tenshinhan’s name actually uses the standard Japanese reading for the characters 天津飯, rather than approximating the Chinese reading. Fully explaining this would take forever, but just trust me when I saw that calling him “Tenshinhan” is more valid than calling Chiaotzu “Chaozu” (not that “Chaozu” is completely invalid, but as noted above it’s similar to “Torankusu”). So sticking with the Japanese name is OK, but at the same time, there’s still an argument for using the Chinese spelling. At the end of the he’s still named after a major Chinese city, after all. On that note…what exactly is the Chinese spelling for his name, anyway?

Like with potstickers, there’s a few options. The Wade-Giles spelling is T’ien-chin, while the Pinyin spelling is Tianjin. As with “Chiaotzu” vs “Jiaozi”, despite the superficial differences these are simply different spellings for precisely the same Chinese name. Even the Japanese Tenshin is obviously not too far removed. These days, if you see the city mentioned on the news, or take a Mandarin Chinese course, “Tianjin” is the spelling you’re going to see. As you can tell though, like with “Chiaotzu”, Funi opted for the Wade-Giles spelling, using “Tien” rather than “Tian”. This is a valid choice. They also dumped the last two-thirds of his name. This is…less so.

However, there is actually some precedent for this in the Japanese version of the series. Chiaotzu commonly calls him “Ten-san”, while the Tenkaichi Budokai announcer likewise refers to him as Ten-senshu, “Contestant Ten”. And in the anime, Tenshinhan refers to his Four-Body Technique as a “Ten Style” move. The Funi dub flips this around though, so that instead of almost always being called “Tenshinhan” and sometimes being called “Ten”, the character is almost always called “Tien” and only rarely called by his full name of…”Tien Shinhan”. So the Funi dub does sometimes restore the rest of his name, but in a strange way: “Tien Shinhan” mixes the Chinese spelling “Tien” with the Japanese spelling “Shinhan”. To be consistent, it should be either “Tien Chinfan” or “Ten Shinhan”. Of course, the difference between the latter of those two and what they actually used is only a single “i”, so arguably there was no reason for them to bother. But by the same token, getting it fully correct wouldn’t have taken much effort on their part either.

Bottom line...Well, if they used “Tien Shinhan” most of the time instead of hardly ever, it would actually be quite faithful, funky Sino-Japanese spelling issues aside.

Shenron (aka the “Eternal Dragon”)
In Chinese, Shen=”God” while Long=”Dragon”, therefore the name means “God Dragon”, “Divine Dragon”, etc. With that in mind, Funi calling him the “Eternal Dragon” seems like another attempt to side-step any mention of gods, with “Eternal” being a safe PC substitute for “Divine”. Well, OK…like with “Guardian”, if you’re not going to use any directly god-related words, I guess “eternal” is not a terrible replacement. But then, if they’re changing the God of Earth into the “Guardian of Earth”, shouldn’t the divine dragon which God creates likewise be rechristened the “Guardian Dragon”, to maintain the connection between their names? Or on the flipside, shouldn’t the dub refer to Kami as “the Eternal Guardian”, at least once or twice? He’s not actually eternal of course, but then Shenlong is likewise quite susceptible to being blown up.

On the Chinese side of things…Long is the Chinese word for “dragon”, while ron is simply the Japanese approximation of the Chinese word. Again, calling a Long “Ron” is like calling Trunks “Torankusu”. It’s pretty bizarre that Funi would mess this up when they got “Chiaotzu” right. Extra so when you consider that “Long” is one of the most well-known Chinese words around.

I didn't do a good job keeping that simply, but hopefully that made some amount of sense.

To be continued...

How would you have translated Nyoi-bo (如意棒) and Kinto-un (筋斗雲)?
Do you mind them being called Power Pole and Flying Nimbus?

I'll cover those...tomorrow. Yeah, tomorrow.

[kei17]

Snake Way
In Japanese, this is Hebi no Michi; hebi=snake/serpent, michi=road…but the no part can be complicated. Often in Japanese it simply corresponds to “of” or an ‘s at the end of a noun, so that Hikaru no Go means “the Go of Hikaru” or “Hikaru’s Go” (Go being a board game, if you were wondering). By the same token, Hokuto no Ken means “Fist of the North Star”…or alternatively “North Star’s Fist”, although that sounds ridiculous. Beyond then there’s cases like midori no hon: you could translate this as “book of green”, but in practice it means simply a “green book”.

There's some complicated reasons behind the case with "midori no hon." It is a pain in the ass for me to explain it in English and there must be no one interested in this other than you, so, let me write this in Japanese:

実は日本語に本来存在した色彩表現は「アカ」「アオ」「シロ」「クロ」の4色だけで、他の色は全て後から物の名称から派生したり他言語から取り入れたりしたものなんですよね。だから形容詞形が存在するのは「黄色い」と「茶色い」の例外を除いてこの4色だけです。「あおあおと」のような副詞表現があるのは完全にこの4色だけです。「アカ」は「あかるい」と同源で夜明けの色に由来しています。「アオ」は「藍」が語源でアカより曖昧な色を表しています。「シロ」は「しるし」になるようなハッキリしたもの、「クロ」は「暗い」と同源です。「青い山」とか「青信号」の用例のように、現在では緑色と表現する範囲まで本来は「アオ」が担っていて、現在でも時に曖昧だったりします。英語では色彩の名称はどれも形容詞形があったりそのまま形容詞に転用できたりするので、「緑の」のような例で直訳で問題が生じるわけです。

[Cure Dragon 255]

WOW! I have never seen someone address someone in Japanese and English so interchangeably before! Awesome!

I could only understand Aka Ao Shiro and Kuro which is Red Blue White And Black!

[precita]

So did Herms just say "Tien" actually isn't a bad dub name at all? They did call him Tienshinhan in the Dragonball dub in the tournaments, but never in DBZ.

[Gaffer Tape]

So did Herms just say "Tien" actually isn't a bad dub name at all? They did call him Tienshinhan in the Dragonball dub in the tournaments, but never in DBZ.

Not true. It actually originated in DBZ back in 1996. During the Saiyan fight, she picks up a picture of the group and refers to him as Tien Shinhan.

[VejituhTheWarriorGuy]

So Tien is technically correct? Wow

[VegettoEX]

So did Herms just say "Tien" actually isn't a bad dub name at all?

So Tien is technically correct? Wow

I think you folks need to read a little more closely.

Taken on its own without the second part of his name... sure, that could be considered a fine adaptation of the intended source of the name. But when you slap one-third of the name with a Chinese pronunciation ("Tien" or "Tian" instead of "Ten") and the other two-thirds with a Japanese pronunciation ("Shinhan" instead of "Chinfan"), you've made a mess. Either go one way ("Tenshinhan") or the other way ("Tien Chinfan"); don't mix and match.

[TheGreatness25]

Ah, this age-old debate. The majority of FUNimation's decisions, including the naming, had to do with the times. Anime was unproven in the U.S. market when they began to dub Dragon Ball. They had to "Americanize" the names and make them sound like they belonged to the English language, thus why some names are not pronounced "properly." The names had to roll off the tongue nicely when put into English dialog.


I'm sure FUNimation didn't think of the puns simply because they don't make sense translated anyway. What American would know that "Saiyan" is supposed to be "Vegetable People?" What American would know that "Tenshinhan" is a play on rice? Nobody. So why would they concern themselves about keeping the integrity of the pun? I bet you FUNimation themselves didn't know.


All of these "next dimension," "Kami," "Eternal Dragon," and even "Hercule" names are directly resulted from the strict rules placed upon them by TV. That is the same reason why they could not show blood in the original FUNimation dub that used the Ocean cast. If you ever come by the "Batman The Animated Series Art Book," there is a page that lists all of the things that they could not do on TV at the time. Nothing that looks sexual, no references to alcohol, no references to drugs, no directly aiming weapons at people, no words that come close to cursing, no sexual undertones, nothing close to nudity, no references to death.


Now with Battle of Gods, they're so much more faithful to the original dialog and using the word "God," for example, but that's because it's a different world and they're releasing this content no a different platform. But heck, even TV changed today. Just turn on Adult Swim or look at any station that has Family Guy playing at any time of the day. The world is different, but that doesn't mean that everything was so acceptable back in the day. If Family Guy aired at 4pm (like I'm sure it does now somewhere) back in Dragon Ball's time, it would get kicked off. And they don't go back and change the names because they've established the names for their fanbase, so why change "Kami" now?


Whatever, I don't even know why I defend them or find excuses for them when they themselves laughingly admit that their original dub was "crap" and all that. Way to be proud of your work,guys.

[VegettoEX]

They had to "Americanize" the names and make them sound like they belonged to the English language, thus why some names are not pronounced "properly." The names had to roll off the tongue nicely when put into English dialog.

Again, I'm not sure you folks are actually reading the discussion closely, and are just rushing in to be a corporate defense force. Jake is (and other folks are) pointing out countless examples from the dub that are totally bizarre pronunciations, many even still in Japanese, right alongside some of the other stuff that's adapted into English completely.

Way to be proud of your work,guys.

Beyond Gen Fukunaga himself, who doesn't comment on the quality of the dub itself these days, none of the production or marketing staff there at FUNimation had anything to do what-so-ever with the 1996-1998 dub, because none of them worked there yet.

[ABED]

and are just rushing in to be a corporate defense force.

Or they just have no issue with it. Yes, the dub terms are incorrect, but it comes off as rather cynical to say even as a joke that someone defending it are PR shills for the company.

ANd I know this is pedantic, but do people have as much animosity towards partnerships, sole proprietorships, or LLC's as they do corporations? Or do people just use corporation as a catch-all for business?

[TheGreatness25]

I explained why the "totally bizarre" pronunciations were made: because of it needing to sound Americanized and because they didn't care for the puns.

Defending FUNimation is "corporate defense force," but the never-ending tearing down of their decisions is perfectly acceptable? Ever since this forum's first days, how many times was FUNimation's work been torn down? That's fine, but defending FUNimation gets cute little responses like that?

And yes, you're right,I haven't been closely following the conversation. I'm not about to read six pages of responses to catch up. I read the first post and several other posts. I'm givng a response to the overall feel of the topic and if it was already mentioned, forgive me, but I' not about to read every post here. Sorry.

[VegettoEX]

That's the thing: it was clear that you did not read the whole discussion, and for those of us who are not only reading it but contributing to it, you're rehashing things that have already been covered. It's not like this is a years-old thread that no-one should be expected to have known about. It's right there. It's already in-progress. If you're not going to actually read it, why should we re-address every single last point just for you personally? "I don't want to put in the time to read this discussion, but it's important that my thoughts are known!" is a super-weird position to take.

[ABED]

I'm sure FUNimation didn't think of the puns simply because they don't make sense translated anyway. What American would know that "Saiyan" is supposed to be "Vegetable People?"

But how does Americans not getting the vegetable pun prevent them from correctly pronouncing Saiyan? If we can pronounce "scion", "Saiyan" isn't difficult.

[TheGreatness25]

That's the thing: it was clear that you did not read the whole discussion, and for those of us who are not only reading it but contributing to it, you're rehashing things that have already been covered. It's not like this is a years-old thread that no-one should be expected to have known about. It's right there. It's already in-progress. If you're not going to actually read it, why should we re-address every single last point just for you personally? "I don't want to put in the time to read this discussion, but it's important that my thoughts are known!" is a super-weird position to take.

Nobody asked anyone to re-address anything. I put in my two cents on the discussion. And yes, I don't want to put in the time to read six pages worth of things. Color me guilty. But if it was already addressed, then just ignore what I said instead of trying to call me out on anything. Or simply say that it was already covered previously. Instead the responses I get sound condescending and that's kind of annoying because I'm sure the idea is to be able to express one's thoughts and opinions.


I read the first four pages and saw such a broad brush-over of what I said. I'm getting tired of reading this, anyway.

[Soppa Saia People]

This is a fantastic topic . So Chiaotzu is more right then Chaozu ? You learn something new every day.

[Herms]

OK, this should do it for Chinese-derived names for now. I'll catch up on feedback later.

Flying Nimbus
The Japanese name, Kinto-un, originates from the Chinese novel Journey to the West and means “Somersault Cloud”. In fact, this “kinto” is not the typical way of saying “somersault” in Japanese, but rather is a holdover from the name’s Chinese origin. For that matter, the very use of “somersault” is a reference to the original conception of the Monkey King’s cloud-riding abilities, which did indeed involve somersaulting. However, later Journey to the West adaptations tend to leave this out, and DB follows suit. Anyway, if we take “Nimbus” as a fancy word for “cloud” and “flying” as a replacement for “somersault” (one better suited to the way the cloud is actually depicted in DB), then “Flying Nimbus” works as a very loose translation of Kinto-un, although it does totally obscure the ancient Chinese origin of the term.

Power Pole
Another JttW item. The Japanese name, Nyoibo, can literally be translated to "As-You-Wish Staff" (*insert Princess Bride reference here*), the idea being that it’s a staff which grows or shrinks however the user wishes it to. “Compliant Rod” is sometimes used as a more succinct translation. I guess there is a connection between the concept of something doing as one wishes, to the concept of “will”, and from there to “power”, in a 6 Degrees of Kevin Bacon sort of way. “Pole” is a valid way of translating bou, though it seems to have been selected mainly to go along with “Power” and create an alliterative name. Overall, “Power Pole” doesn’t convey the essential point of the original name, which is that this staff/rod/pole changes in response to the user’s desires. Something like “Morphing Pole” would be better on the score, though it sounds like something out of Power Rangers. Of course, like with Kinto-un, this name originates from a classic Chinese novel. More so than any other DB names, these are two which you don’t necessarily want to heavily localize so that they sound like random items from any kids action show.

Yamcha
Long story short, this spelling is fine, but the explanation is complicated. I’ve been talking blithely about “Chinese” names, but until now I’ve only dealt with names deriving from Mandarin Chinese. This one though comes from the Cantonese term Yum cha, a style of Chinese cuisine involving drinking tea while eating snacks. 飲/Yum=”drink”, 茶/Cha=”tea”. In fact, I’m a bit puzzled by that “Yum”. The Wikipedia page uses the spelling “Yum cha”, but according to that same page, this term should be spelled “Jam caa” in English under the Jyutping system of romanisation, and “Yam cha” under the Yale system. So after 30 seconds of research I still don’t really know where “Yum” comes from, but as you’ve probably noticed by now, there’s no shortage of different systems for spelling Chinese names in English (over in Mandarin Chinese these same characters would be read as “Yin cha”). At the end of the day, “Yam cha” is a valid spelling according to the Yale system of writing Cantonese names in English, meaning there shouldn’t be anything wrong with calling the DB character “Yamcha”. The Japanese kana spelling for both the name of the Chinese cuisine and the DB character is ヤムチャ/Yamucha, but there’s no reason to keep the “u” in there.

Puar
Off by one letter. The name derives from a type of tea spelt either “Pu-erh” or “Pu’er” in English (the latter being the Pinyin spelling of the Mandarin Chinese name). The Japanese kana spelling for the DB character is プーアル/Puuaru, and so “Puar” is a valid romanisation of this, but overlooks how the name ultimately derives from the Chinese Pu’er tea. So spelling it “Puer” would have been better in that regard.

Oolong
Fine. Another tea name. The Pinyin spelling for this Mandarin Chinese name is “Wulong”, but “Oolong” is (per the Wikipedia talk page) a “nonstandard transcription of the Mandarin pronunciation” and seems to be the most commonly used name for the tea in English. So nothing wrong with using this spelling for the DB character.

To be continued...