Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ekrolo2]

The basic sayan exceed Piccolo already from the buu saga

Unless they made him worthless fodder in their base forms as of the Cell Games, Vegeta's comment makes this impossible to work.

The problem is that Toriyama he never cared about the internal consistency. The characters, often, become strong only because it is necessary that they become. You guys really believe that Toriyama has in mind the multiplier? He forgets its same characters.

However, regardless of the inconsistencies, through various statements Toriyama wanted to imply that the basic sayan are superior to Piccolo (maybe they were already at the Cell Games)

Vegeta's comment about how Goku managed to surpass SSJ2, Cell Games Gohan, meaning neither of them both of them spent most of the seven years closing the gap on Gohan. That's why I really doubt Piccolo was already completely outclassed even by their base states at any point (with the exception of Gohan and fusions), especially as early as the Cell Games.

Plus there's the fact Goten and Trunks, who're are pretty close to their dads in power even before the ROSAT, aren't picked as the dominant absorptions when Gotenks defuses, Piccolo is. Then there's BoG where Base Saiyan's are beneath Max Freeza.

[Gorou]

Vegeta's comment about how Goku managed to surpass SSJ2, Cell Games Gohan, meaning neither of them both of them spent most of the seven years closing the gap on Gohan. That's why I really doubt Piccolo was already completely outclassed even by their base states at any point (with the exception of Gohan and fusions), especially as early as the Cell Games.

Plus there's the fact Goten and Trunks, who're are pretty close to their dads in power even before the ROSAT, aren't picked as the dominant absorptions when Gotenks defuses, Piccolo is. Then there's BoG where Base Saiyan's are beneath Max Freeza.

In fact, they could have passed Piccolo already at the Cell Games. Toriyama does not follow the multipliers, example: Yakon = 800 (Goku is almost equal with its basic form) --- Goku SSJ = 3000.

I never gave too much importance to that statement to Beerus in BoG, because Goke was absolutely relaxed, in that moment.

[ekrolo2]

Vegeta's comment about how Goku managed to surpass SSJ2, Cell Games Gohan, meaning neither of them both of them spent most of the seven years closing the gap on Gohan. That's why I really doubt Piccolo was already completely outclassed even by their base states at any point (with the exception of Gohan and fusions), especially as early as the Cell Games.

Plus there's the fact Goten and Trunks, who're are pretty close to their dads in power even before the ROSAT, aren't picked as the dominant absorptions when Gotenks defuses, Piccolo is. Then there's BoG where Base Saiyan's are beneath Max Freeza.

In fact, they could have passed Piccolo already at the Cell Games. Toriyama does not follow the multipliers, example: Yakon = 800 (Goku is almost equal with its basic form) --- Goku SSJ = 3000.

I never gave too much importance to that statement to Beerus in BoG, because Goke was absolutely relaxed, in that moment.

If Toriyama's really trying to say Piccolo is inferior to them, then he's doing a bad job of showing it with the absorption example and the fact Goten & Trunks, who're close to their dads even before the ROSAT feel the need to use SSJ against Android 18. Even with the Mighty Mask costume, if they were REALLY that strong, they could've one shotted her easily.

I take Beerus' comment more seriously than Goku's whole "fusion won't work comment" in BoG. It's shown that an opponent can sense another power even when they're suppressed or relaxed. Super especially shows that Beerus is smarter than he lets on when he goes from "I don't know jack about SSG!" to having two separate monologues explaining how it works in pretty good detail.

[Gorou]

If Toriyama's really trying to say Piccolo is inferior to them, then he's doing a bad job of showing it with the absorption example and the fact Goten & Trunks, who're close to their dads even before the ROSAT feel the need to use SSJ against Android 18. Even with the Mighty Mask costume, if they were REALLY that strong, they could've one shotted her easily.

I take Beerus' comment more seriously than Goku's whole "fusion won't work comment" in BoG. It's shown that an opponent can sense another power even when they're suppressed or relaxed. Super especially shows that Beerus is smarter than he lets on when he goes from "I don't know jack about SSG!" to having two separate monologues explaining how it works in pretty good detail.

Through the statements of Vegeta, the gap with Supreme Kai and the Babidi's detector, the inferiority of Piccolo was made clearly evident. About Goten and Trunks we only know that they are incredibly strong for their age, but we can not determine in any way the substantive difference between them and the parents. They remain strong, even if they were 1/3 of their parents. Certainly, them are not close to being equal, otherwise there would not be a such big difference between Gotenks and Vegito.

It is one thing to assume the strength of a fighter after having fought (also Krilin can understand the power of Perfect Cell after taking a kick from him), another is deduce the strength of a totally relaxed fighter in front of you.

[ekrolo2]

If Toriyama's really trying to say Piccolo is inferior to them, then he's doing a bad job of showing it with the absorption example and the fact Goten & Trunks, who're close to their dads even before the ROSAT feel the need to use SSJ against Android 18. Even with the Mighty Mask costume, if they were REALLY that strong, they could've one shotted her easily.

I take Beerus' comment more seriously than Goku's whole "fusion won't work comment" in BoG. It's shown that an opponent can sense another power even when they're suppressed or relaxed. Super especially shows that Beerus is smarter than he lets on when he goes from "I don't know jack about SSG!" to having two separate monologues explaining how it works in pretty good detail.

Through the statements of Vegeta, the gap with Supreme Kai and the Babidi's detector, the inferiority of Piccolo was made clearly evident. Goten and Trunks we only know that they are incredibly strong for their age, but we can not determine in any way the substantive difference between them and the parents. They remain strong, even if they were 1/3 of their parents. Certainly, them are not close to being equal, otherwise there would not be such a big difference between Gotenks and Vegito.

It is one thing to assume the strength of a fighter after having fought (also Krilin can understand the power of Perfect Cell after taking a kick from him), another is deduce the strength of a totally relaxed fighter in front of you.

If you mean Vegeta being fine with the concept of not using SSJ since he thought he'd win without it, then I wouldn't use that as any hard evidence. He's a cocky SOB and has continuously underestimates people who're clearly superior to him. His only interest isn't in the tournament, its fighting Goku and if he had to break the no SSJ rule to get to that fight, he most assuredly would have. The only person we know Vegeta will have a totally unbiased opinion of is Goku since the difference in their strength is what makes him submit to Babidi in the first place.

As for Supreme Kai, what exactly does that prove? We know Supreme Kai is weaker than SSJ Saiyan's since he relents when Goku threatens him and we know Goku's a good deal more improved from the Cell Games. All Supreme Kai needs to be is equal to say Cell Games Goku at his peak to create a sizeable gap between himself and Piccolo.

That's another thing in favor of Piccolo: Goku as an SSJ, with a big power loss in mind, gets his ass handed to him by a suppressed Cell Jr and is eating dirt while Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo are still on their feet. A weakened SSJ Goku who, If Vegeta's SSJ2 statement really means Base Saiyans > Piccolo as early as the Cell Games, should still be many times above Piccolo is faring worse than a guy who's supposedly beneath him in base form.

Goten and Trunks manage to give Gohan and Vegeta a pretty good workout with Gohan commenting that they'll leave him in the dust soon if he doesn't start training. Given how neither Goku or Vegeta aren't substantially better than Gohan was at his Cell Games peak, it's fair to say the boys are 70-80% their parents. I don't know why this would mean there wouldn't be a big difference between Gotenks and Vegetto. The dance has a set kind of criteria from similarities in height and power to even work while the Potara has no such limitations and even gives additional boosts if the rival boost is any indication.

[Gorou]

If you mean Vegeta being fine with the concept of not using SSJ since he thought he'd win without it, then I wouldn't use that as any hard evidence. He's a cocky SOB and has continuously underestimates people who're clearly superior to him. His only interest isn't in the tournament, its fighting Goku and if he had to break the no SSJ rule to get to that fight, he most assuredly would have. The only person we know Vegeta will have a totally unbiased opinion of is Goku since the difference in their strength is what makes him submit to Babidi in the first place.

Taken alone his arrogant comment is irrelevant, but the entire context appears reliable. No one, including Goku and Gohan, is worried to face Piccolo, without having to use the SSJ stage. Added to the remaining net evidence, it becomes relevant.

As for Supreme Kai, what exactly does that prove? We know Supreme Kai is weaker than SSJ Saiyan's since he relents when Goku threatens him and we know Goku's a good deal more improved from the Cell Games. All Supreme Kai needs to be is equal to say Cell Games Goku at his peak to create a sizeable gap between himself and Piccolo.

Supreme Kai was astonished by the performance of Vegeta, and even that is a given. He fears Yakon, that a basic Goku managed to hold off. In addition, the calculation of the Kili is a smoking gun.

That's another thing in favor of Piccolo: Goku as an SSJ, with a big power loss in mind, gets his ass handed to him by a suppressed Cell Jr and is eating dirt while Vegeta, Trunks and Piccolo are still on their feet. A weakened SSJ Goku who, If Vegeta's SSJ2 statement really means Base Saiyans > Piccolo as early as the Cell Games, should still be many times above Piccolo is faring worse than a guy who's supposedly beneath him in base form.

There is not the slightest connection. Goku had big stamina problems, not only power. Piccolo, in the manga, we do not see fight with any Cell jr.

Goten and Trunks manage to give Gohan and Vegeta a pretty good workout with Gohan commenting that they'll leave him in the dust soon if he doesn't start training. Given how neither Goku or Vegeta aren't substantially better than Gohan was at his Cell Games peak, it's fair to say the boys are 70-80% their parents. I don't know why this would mean there wouldn't be a big difference between Gotenks and Vegetto. The dance has a set kind of criteria from similarities in height and power to even work while the Potara has no such limitations and even gives additional boosts if the rival boost is any indication.

70-80%? Based on that? They are all your personal suppositions. There is not a precise reference who can confirm that, no proof. Gohan and Vegeta are just amazed at the strength of the two children, who in seven years already exceed the base level of the SSJ. Gohan was out of shape and, for all we know, Vegeta could be at its 50% when challenge Trunks to strike him. I repeat, there is no net evidence there. The Supreme Kaioshin does not say that potara grant more power of metamor (verified in the original translation).

[DanielSSJ]

Goten and Trunks manage to give Gohan and Vegeta a pretty good workout with Gohan commenting that they'll leave him in the dust soon if he doesn't start training.

While I agree with the main points you're trying to make, it is worth noting that, in the same conversation as Gohan's "they'll surpass me if I don't watch it" Goten mentions that he couldn't hit Gohan once, meaning that the kids aren't that close to Gohan, and especially their dads. I do agree with the point about the base Saiyans being below Piccolo by a decent amount.

[DBZAOTA482]

Goten and Trunks manage to give Gohan and Vegeta a pretty good workout with Gohan commenting that they'll leave him in the dust soon if he doesn't start training.

While I agree with the main points you're trying to make, it is worth noting that, in the same conversation as Gohan's "they'll surpass me if I don't watch it" Goten mentions that he couldn't hit Gohan once, meaning that the kids aren't that close to Gohan, and especially their dads. I do agree with the point about the base Saiyans being below Piccolo by a decent amount.

Or it could mean the kids (especially Goten) aren't as well trained.

[ekrolo2]

Taken alone his arrogant comment is irrelevant, but the entire context appears reliable. No one, including Goku and Gohan, is worried to face Piccolo, without having to use the SSJ stage. Added to the remaining net evidence, it becomes relevant.

Goku, I don't think at least, is even aware of the agreement and the entire purpose of them holding back is to make things more fair for everyone, including Krillin and 18 who they'd be able to one in their base (in the case of Krillin) or with SSJ (in the case of 18). Besides, if Chi-Chi yelled at Gohan to take things more seriously to win all the tournament money, you bet your ass Gohan would shit out SSJ3 (somehow) to do what she wants

As for Supreme Kai, what exactly does that prove? We know Supreme Kai is weaker than SSJ Saiyan's since he relents when Goku threatens him and we know Goku's a good deal more improved from the Cell Games. All Supreme Kai needs to be is equal to say Cell Games Goku at his peak to create a sizeable gap between himself and Piccolo.

Supreme Kai was astonished by the performance of Vegeta, and even that is a given. He fears Yakon, that a basic Goku managed to hold off. In addition, the calculation of the Kili is a smoking gun.

Supreme Kai also think they need to team up to beat anyone on the ship and the Saiyan's constantly prove him wrong. Also, if the Kili calculations were 100% accurate, then Goku's SSJ is EXACTLY the same power as it was when he fought Freeza which is total bullshit.

There is not the slightest connection. Goku had big stamina problems, not only power. Piccolo, in the manga, we do not see fight with any Cell jr.

Not much anyway but if Goku was already above Piccolo in his base form at the Cell Games, he shouldn't be performing worse than him even as a weakened SSJ. Instead, Goku is down in the dirt along with the humans while Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks are still on their feet.

70-80%? Based on that? They are all your personal suppositions. There is not a precise reference who can confirm that, no proof. Gohan and Vegeta are just amazed at the strength of the two children, who in seven years already exceed the base level of the SSJ. Gohan was out of shape and, for all we know, Vegeta could be at its 50% when challenge Trunks to strike him. I repeat, there is no net evidence there. The Supreme Kaioshin does not say that potara grant more power of metamor (verified in the original translation).

Gohan's comment about Goten surpassing him soon if he doesn't start training again indicates that he's at the very least at 50% of Gohan's power. Vegeta might've been holding back at first but he's quickly sweating and surprised by Trunks' power and has to retaliate to stop his assault on him. Well then Toriyama's clearly back-pedaling on that since Old Kai, when asked to explain how Vegetto has turned out this strong, clearly says that them living to out do one another has created a stronger Goku & Vegeta fusion than he expected.

The Potara is also shown to have no limitations like the time-limit, height or similar power levels like the dance does in order to function, hence why I don't think it even has anything resembling a set power boost like the dance. Rather, it depends on the individual components comprising it.

[ahill1]

The Potara method was said to be stronger than the Dance. Potara being >>> Dance it's official!!!!!!

[Gorou]

Supreme Kai also think they need to team up to beat anyone on the ship and the Saiyan's constantly prove him wrong.

He says to not underestimate much Pui Pui, and suggest to fight Yakon together. If it had been stronger than the demon would face alone (it would have been smarter, because its energy not can be used to awaken Buu).

Also, if the Kili calculations were 100% accurate, then Goku's SSJ is EXACTLY the same power as it was when he fought Freeza which is total bullshit.

How? 1 Kili is not equivalent to 1 power level. Is perfectly possible that: 1 k = 1 milion pl.
So:
Yakon - basis Goku = 800 (milion)
Goku SSJ = 3000 (milion)

Not much anyway but if Goku was already above Piccolo in his base form at the Cell Games, he shouldn't be performing worse than him even as a weakened SSJ. Instead, Goku is down in the dirt along with the humans while Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks are still on their feet.

Simply because he was tired and without energy. In that state, in its basic form it would be results even weaker. In full strength, it is superior to Vegeta that, in turn, is greater than Piccolo (the only ones that keep head to Cell jr. were Trunks and Vegeta).

Gohan's comment about Goten surpassing him soon if he doesn't start training again indicates that he's at the very least at 50% of Gohan's power

Not necessarily. We speak of a 6-7 year old child, who has a superior force to the basic SSJ without ever having undergone any training heavy.
Obviously, the latent potential of such a prodigy would impress anyone.

. Vegeta might've been holding back at first but he's quickly sweating and surprised by Trunks' power and has to retaliate to stop his assault on him

Yes, but it is not explanatory of any further commitment on its part.
Cell had been hold back for the entire clash with Goku, but at the end of the fight was fatigued.

The Potara is also shown to have no limitations like the time-limit, height or similar power levels like the dance does in order to function, hence why I don't think it even has anything resembling a set power boost like the dance. Rather, it depends on the individual components comprising it.

Potara, in general, are more efficient because are no time limits, and does not require similar physical conformation, and neither a perfectly equal power. This is not enough, by itself, to justify the gap between Gotenks SSJ and Vegeh SSJ.

The Potara method was said to be stronger than the Dance. Potara being >>> Dance it's official!!!!!!

(Manga under the eyes) No, it is never said

[ekrolo2]

How? 1 Kili is not equivalent to 1 power level. Is perfectly possible that: 1 k = 1 milion pl.
So:
Yakon - basis Goku = 800 (milion)
Goku SSJ = 3000 (milion)

The only half-way official comment we have over how much is a kili worth is from V-jump putting it saying its worth 50 000 PL/BP per PL, giving Goku's SSJ 150 million against Yakon which is fine if Goku's base is beneath Freeza but total horse shit if his base is above Piccolo. There's also the fact Daizenshuu 7 says that a kili of 200-300 is enough to a blow up a planet. Once again, doesn't work since Freeza destroyed Planet Vegeta with a lot less power.

Simply because he was tired and without energy. In that state, in its basic form it would be results even weaker. In full strength, it is superior to Vegeta that, in turn, is greater than Piccolo (the only ones that keep head to Cell jr. were Trunks and Vegeta).

At full-strength he is stronger than Piccolo as an SSJ, but even tired, there's no way he'd become weaker than his base form as a tired SSJ if Vegeta's comment about neither of them being much stronger than Gohan is supposed to imply that Base Saiyans > Piccolo at the Cell Games. It literally makes no sense for Goku, in a transformed state that increases his power, even tired should perform worse than someone who's base form is inferior to his strength.

Also, Piccolo's still on his feet along with Vegeta and Trunks, he's not performing as well as them but he's still among the people on their feet during that scuffle. Everyone else is done.

Yes, but it is not explanatory of any further commitment on its part.
Cell had been hold back for the entire clash with Goku, but at the end of the fight was fatigued.

Cell had to regenerate because half his body got blown off and took damage from Goku's barrage, that would tire him out.

The Potara is also shown to have no limitations like the time-limit, height or similar power levels like the dance does in order to function, hence why I don't think it even has anything resembling a set power boost like the dance. Rather, it depends on the individual components comprising it.

Potara, in general, it is more efficient because there are no time limits, and does not require similar physical conformation, and neither a perfectly equal power. This is not enough, by itself, to justify the gap between Gotenks SSJ and Vegeh SSJ.[/quote]

The rival boost, however, does show that under certain conditions depending on the components, a fusion turns out stronger which is the case for Vegetto and is never even implied to be with the dance. Besides, Vegetto doesn't need to be a hundred times stronger for there to be a big gap between him and Gotenks. At best, I'd say he's 4-5 stronger at best.

[Gorou]

The only half-way official comment we have over how much is a kili worth is from V-jump putting it saying its worth 50 000 PL/BP per PL, giving Goku's SSJ 150 million against Yakon which is fine if Goku's base is beneath Freeza but total horse shit if his base is above Piccolo. There's also the fact Daizenshuu 7 says that a kili of 200-300 is enough to a blow up a planet. Once again, doesn't work since Freeza destroyed Planet Vegeta with a lot less power.

The point is the manga's scale, because in that scale is present the exact relationship between Goku and Yakon, and this relationship is: 3000 -800. This is the scale of the manga, the precise indication of toriyama, and Goku base is equal to Yakon. V-jump is not a source that I consider reliable, specially to contest the manga.

At full-strength he is stronger than Piccolo as an SSJ, but even tired, there's no way he'd become weaker than his base form as a tired SSJ

Why not? What denies? Goku was in poor condition and without energy. It makes perfect sense and is absolutely possible. A race car, with low fuel, it needs to slow down and, if possible, run less than a subcompact

Also, Piccolo's still on his feet along with Vegeta and Trunks, he's not performing as well as them but he's still among the people on their feet during that scuffle. Everyone else is done.

The others were all immensely weaker. Goku, however, was no energy.

Cell had to regenerate because half his body got blown off and took damage from Goku's barrage, that would tire him out.

He was not so tired when it is regenerated. He has begun to show some fatigue later. The point is that you can tire even without giving the maximum

The rival boost, however, does show that under certain conditions depending on the components, a fusion turns out stronger which is the case for Vegetto and is never even implied to be with the dance. Besides, Vegetto doesn't need to be a hundred times stronger for there to be a big gap between him and Gotenks. At best, I'd say he's 4-5 stronger at best

To parity of the stadium, the difference is much higher. Vegeta SSJ1 far exceeds the power of Gotenks SSJ3. In addition, for those who argue Kid Bu>Super (I repeat, the manga contradicts himself on this), even Goku SSJ3 exceeds Gotenks SSJ3. If it were not so, Goku would be the king of all idiots, but we already knew that.

[ekrolo2]

The point is the manga's scale, because in that scale is present the exact relationship between Goku and Yakon, and this relationship is: 3000 -800. This is the scale of the manga, the precise indication of toriyama, and Goku base is equal to Yakon. V-jump is not a source that I consider reliable, specially to contest the manga.

Yeah, but we don't know how much a kili is in relation to a BP point. Are they the same or more as the V-Jump thing admits. I'm not debating that Goku's base could take out Yakon, the problem is: how much is a kili worth and V-Jump is the only thing we have as a half-way offical frame of reference which may or may not work for the manga (probably not).

Why not? What denies? Goku was in poor condition and without energy. It makes perfect sense and is absolutely possible. A race car, with low fuel, it needs to slow down and, if possible, run less than a subcompact

Because if Goku's SSJ is weaker than his base, he'd drop out of SSJ entirely. Grade 4 is only meant to make your use of SSJ more flexible, allowing you to fight in a more restrained form of it instead of it being a strict, always x50 multiplier like the untrained variant is implied to be. It is not, however, a replacement for his base form and if he really lost such a massive amount of power, he'd revert but he doesn't.

He was not so tired when it is regenerated. He has begun to show some fatigue more later. The point is that you can tire even without giving the maximum

Goku explicitly says he lost a lot of power upon regenerating which, coupled with Goku's barrage and Cell exerting effort to beat back his barrage, shows that both these things in quick succession tired him out.

To parity of the stadium, the difference is much higher. Vegeta SSJ1 far exceeds the power of Gotenks SSJ3. In addition, for those who argue Kid Bu>Super (I repeat, the manga contradicts himself on this), even Goku SSJ3 exceeds Gotenks SSJ3. If it were not so, Goku would be the king of the idiots, but we already knew that.

Vegetto SSJ1 does far exceed the power of Gotenks but his power, like the whole Kid Boo > Super Boo thing, is overblown largely thanks to the anime and dub screwing things up and trying to pass off both characters as far stronger than they are.

I put Vegetto's base a smidge above Gotenks as an SSJ1, allowing for Vegetto create a sizable gap with the runt but not as a needlessly ridiculous one as most people like to assume there is. Vegetto himself is even surprised by the fact he's trouncing Boohan with such ease, showing us that his base form isn't really all that.

[Gorou]

Yeah, but we don't know how much a kili is in relation to a BP point. Are they the same or more as the V-Jump thing admits. I'm not debating that Goku's base could take out Yakon, the problem is: how much is a kili worth and V-Jump is the only thing we have as a half-way offical frame of reference which may or may not work for the manga (probably not)

The indications of a magazine are not important. What is relevant is the scale shown in the manga. To the detriment of what corresponds to one kili, we know that Goku SSJ is less than 4 times stronger than Yakon. This invalidates the x50 multiplication, which toriyama not always respects.

In fact, we also know that Yakon is feared by Kaiohshin, which in turn is stronger than Piccolo.

Because if Goku's SSJ is weaker than his base, he'd drop out of SSJ entirely. Grade 4 is only meant to make your use of SSJ more flexible, allowing you to fight in a more restrained form of it instead of it being a strict, always x50 multiplier like the untrained variant is implied to be. It is not, however, a replacement for his base form and if he really lost such a massive amount of power, he'd revert but he doesn't.

He may have lost 75% of its energy, but with that 25% would still support, for me, a frighteningly weak SSJ. Recall that energy does not equal to power. They come back at their basic form usually when are unconscious or when fully exhaust their energies.

Goku explicitly says he lost a lot of power upon regenerating which, coupled with Goku's barrage and Cell exerting effort to beat back his barrage, shows that both these things in quick succession tired him out.

However, when you regenerate he is not particularly fatigued. The use of the barrier tired he more, but this does not disprove my theory, according to which one can get tired / fatigue, even without using 100% of power.

I put Vegetto's base a smidge above Gotenks as an SSJ1, allowing for Vegetto create a sizable gap with the runt but not as a needlessly ridiculous one as most people like to assume there is. Vegetto himself is even surprised by the fact he's trouncing Boohan with such ease, showing us that his base form isn't really all that.

I'm not referring to its basic form, but the form of SSJ, which also dominates the SSJ3 form of Gotenks.
The controversy Kid Bu>Super born from the manga. Mainly the question is:
- Goku and Vegeta are idiots who rely on a technique that has always failed, rather than allow Gotenks and Gohan to fight;
- Goku and Vegeta are geniuses that have realized the superiority of Buu toward Gotenks and Gohan;

I tend to the first answer.

[ahill1]

@Gorou

Yeah, it's said. In both the manga and Daizenshuu.

[DanielSSJ]

The indications of a magazine are not important. What is relevant is the scale shown in the manga. To the detriment of what corresponds to one kili, we know that Goku SSJ is less than 4 times stronger than Yakon. This invalidates the x50 multiplication, which toriyama not always respects.

In fact, we also know that Yakon is feared by Kaiohshin, which in turn is stronger than Piccolo.

How do you know that Goku was even at full power when the 3,000 kili number was read? And Gohan later suggests fighting Yakon two-on-one so that they won't have to be Super Saiyans, suggesting that Yakon is stronger than base Goku. Also, Kaioshin's fear of Babidi's fighters doesn't necessarily mean anything, since there were already two fighters under his control who's Ki couldn't be detected(Yamu and Spopovich), so that trait might carry over to some of his other minions. Kaioshin also doesn't seem to be able to judge others strength very well, seeing how he constantly overestimates Babidi's fighters and underestimates the Super Saiyans. I write off his fear as him being overly paranoid with anything involving Babidi or Boo, and due to Yakon's and Dabra's reputations.

[Gorou]

How do you know that Goku was even at full power when the 3,000 kili number was read?

It is wrapped by the ki, and this is always present when they are not heavily holding back (not less than 50%). In addition, when kill Yakon did not further increase his SSJ Ki, but he passes to the next stage.

And Gohan later suggests fighting Yakon two-on-one so that they won't have to be Super Saiyans, suggesting that Yakon is stronger than base Goku

The difference is minimal, since Goku manages to dodge his shots and even to hit him. If he is 800, Goku will be 700.

Also, Kaioshin's fear of Babidi's fighters doesn't necessarily mean anything, since there were already two fighters under his control who's Ki couldn't be detected(Yamu and Spopovich), so that trait might carry over to some of his other minions. Kaioshin also doesn't seem to be able to judge others strength very well, seeing how he constantly overestimates Babidi's fighters and underestimates the Super Saiyans. I write off his fear as him being overly paranoid with anything involving Babidi or Boo, and due to Yakon's and Dabra's reputations.

Kaioshin seems to know quite well Yakon. He recognizes it right away and he knows well that feeds on light, so he knows well of its strength. If it had been much stronger than him would faced alone, without involving the sayan, whose energy can be used to awaken Bu, unlike her. If it does not for two reasons: 1 Is a total idiot; 2 He can not beat him alone. The same Babidi does not bother to send his minions against kaioschin, and he should know his strength.

[ThePiccolo]

Just a quick question for you guys so I can make an accurate placement of these characters. If Beerus is 1000 on this scale, what would you estimate these characters are? (Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo are their tournament level)

Goku -
SSJ -

Vegeta -
SSJ -

Piccolo -

Champa -

Vados -

First Form Frost -
Assault Form-
Final Form -

Botamo -

And we do not have any accurate means to gauge these 3 characters' strengths, but what would you assume them to be?

Magetta -

Cabba -

Hit -

[LightBing]

Just a quick question for you guys so I can make an accurate placement of these characters. If Beerus is 1000 on this scale, what would you estimate these characters are? (Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo are their tournament level)

You will get wildly different answers. It's still very much undefined, by next episode I might chance this completely. So for what it's worth here's my numbers. They revolve around the idea Piccolo got a power up. that put's him at Gotenks-Boo level, while training with Gohan; and that the Base from Goku and Vegeta got retconned to be weaker than SSJB.

Goku - 75
SSJ - 300

Vegeta - 75
SSJ - 300

Piccolo - 85

Champa - 960

Vados - 1600

First Form Frost - 50
Assault Form - 80
Final Form - 150
Tired Final Form - 96

Botamo - 35

Magetta - 125

Cabba - 280

Hit - 600