OkaySSJ3 Vegeta wrote: Full Power.
SSJ Gohan : 22,500,000,000
Dabra : 24,000,000,000
Perfect Cell : 80,000,000,000
Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread
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DBZAOTA482
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
SSJ Gohan : 22,500,000,000
Dabra : 24,000,000,000
Perfect Cell : 80,000,000,000
fadeddreams5 wrote:Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
It gives a visual indication, that the character in question is powering up, simple enough.SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:What does lighting and aura have to do with anything ? Recoome does the same thing and he was never implied to be able to do it.And Piccolo's line could be interpreted as he doesn't expect them to be strong.dbgtFO wrote:That's not even going into the fact we see Nappa visually power up with aura and lightning and all.
I don't recall Recoome powering up like that. Unless you're referring to the attack Goku interrupted?
And Piccolo's comment: Piccolo had a certain opinion on how strong he expected them to be, Nappa then powers up, surpassing Piccolo's expectation, again simple.
Yeah, but that's bullshit and not explained properly like I've said some times now.A major plot point on Namek Arc was that Vegeta learned how to control his ki on earth.
The thing is "controlling one's battle power" what does that mean? Here at Kanzenshuu we've had so many debates about it(and it spilled over to gamefaqs, where some users tried to direct an attack against Kaboom, me and others on here to debunk our beliefs), it led to some of us crafting several theories as to the clear discrepancy we see, when both Nappa and Vegeta power up, but that apparently not falling under controlling one's battle power, as per Vegeta's quote.
I for one used to argue the case, that what Vegeta and Nappa did was a different kind of power-up than what Goku and co. did, but honestly it's a bit too complicated for my tastes, especially when it seems like in the Freeza Arc, Toriyama did keep in mind, that Freeza's henchmen were not supposed to be able to change their battle powers and thus we don't see them power-up like Nappa and Vegeta back on Earth.
Zarbon changed his battle power, but that's through transformation and Ginyu also changed his battle power, but he was also stated to be a special case and then of course Freeza. Though funnily enough Vegeta first expresses surprise at Freeza being capable of changing his battle power, when Freeza is in his second form, implying that Freeza powering up in his first form was different than when he did likewise in his second form. But that's all we got really.
In any case in the Freeza Arc, it seems clear, that changing one's battle power is done by suppressing it, powering up, transforming, using amplified ki attacks and using Kaio-ken. Only a select few of Freeza's henchmen change their battle power and those have already been mentioned. Everyone else just walk around at full power at all times, which is complete opposite to what Vegeta and Nappa did on Earth, thus leading to the conclusion that Vegeta's statement is inconsistent with that. That's what it comes down to.
Already posted the Piccolo line and here is Goku on Vegeta:This is really just the same as Vegeta thinking he was able to do some serious damage to 2nd Form Freeza even though he's way weaker than him.And no one made a comment that Nappa and Vegeta's ki had risen up.
Chapter: 227 (DBZ 33), P6.2, P10.2
Goku: “What ki…! [ ] Sorry. Seems he’s even stronger than I thought.”
Recoome does the same thing when? Once again are you referring to his interrupted attack? Or is it something else?Recoome does the same thing and was never implied to be able to control his power.And when Goku fired his kamehameha.He was already strained,that's why he can't push the kameameha enough to overpower Vegeta forcing him to go x4.
Nappa was nothing special, when he was pissed off and not thinking straight. It was a different story, when he cleared his mind.Then why would Goku said that Nappa is nothing special ? I already posted my point on my Nappa can't change his ki..
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
They were meant to be switched around.ahill1 wrote:Goten stronger than Trunks?
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apex_pretador
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
My 'no multipliers' list for the full manga
DB Hunt:
21st TB arc
Red ribbon army arc
Baba arc:
22nd TB arc
Piccolo Daimao arc:
23rd TB arc:
Saiyan arc:
Namek arc:
Freeza arc:
Androids arc:
Cell arc:
Cell Games:
Buu arc:
Buu arc part 2:
- Feedback will be welcomed
- No multipliers except for Ozaru ONLY
- No daizenshuu stuff
- I will use logic everywhere
DB Hunt:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Spoiler:
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DanielSSJ
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
I don't see how a Kaioken x10 granting a 3x boost is logical. Or a Kaioken x20 granting a 6x boost, for that matter.apex_pretador wrote:My 'no multipliers' list for the full manga
- Feedback will be welcomed
- No multipliers except for Ozaru ONLY
- No daizenshuu stuff
- I will use logic everywhere
DB Hunt:
21st TB arcSpoiler:
Red ribbon army arcSpoiler:
Baba arc:Spoiler:
22nd TB arcSpoiler:
Piccolo Daimao arc:Spoiler:
23rd TB arc:Spoiler:
Saiyan arc:Spoiler:
Namek arc:Spoiler:
Freeza arc:Spoiler:
Androids arc:Spoiler:
Cell arc:Spoiler:
Cell Games:Spoiler:
Buu arc:Spoiler:
Buu arc part 2:Spoiler:
Spoiler:
My Official Unofficial Battle Power list (in-progress: updated 11/8/2022—FREEZA ARC COMPLETED)
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apex_pretador
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Kaioken provides uneven boosts. In the battle against vegeta, it was made pretty clear that KK x2 > KK, and goku (namek) , who was 85,000 tops, was able to reach 180,000 with only Kaioken (not even KK x2). In the battle against vegeta, Kaioken was providing boost directly proportional to his own battle power. (also, this is no multiplier list)DanielSSJ wrote:I don't see how a Kaioken x10 granting a 3x boost is logical. Or a Kaioken x20 granting a 6x boost, for that matter.
Any other inconsistency you found?
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Both the situations were a kaioken x2. Ginyu almost guessed Goku's power right, because he was at 90,000 at that moment. When he fought Nappa and Vegeta his kaioken was at 16,000.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Recoome was charging up and was shown to have aura before Goku attacked him.dbgtFO wrote: I don't recall Recoome powering up like that. Unless you're referring to the attack Goku interrupted?
Spoiler:
How was it bullshit in any way ? The line just said Vegeta learned how to control his Ki on earth.Wether what happened before that will be counted as an inconsistency if you want.Yeah, but that's bullshit and not explained properly like I've said some times now.
Spoiler:
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Yes, the attack Goku interrupted, like I said.SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:Recoome was charging up and was shown to have aura before Goku attacked him.dbgtFO wrote:I don't recall Recoome powering up like that. Unless you're referring to the attack Goku interrupted?Spoiler:
I explained in the post why and yes it's because it's an inconsistency from our point of view:How was it bullshit in any way ? The line just said Vegeta learned how to control his Ki on earth.Wether what happened before that will be counted as an inconsistency if you want.
In Freeza Arc, "controlling one's battle power" means suppressing power, powering up, charging ki blast, transforming & using Kaio-ken.
Ginyu and Zarbon are the only of Freeza's henchmen confirmed to be capable of changing their battle powers. Everyone else don't power up or anything like the Z fighters.
Thus it's simple to conclude that powering up like what Nappa and Vegeta did in the Saiyan Arc is changing one's battle power, like Vegeta claimed he didn't know how to until his battle on Earth. Thus inconsistency.
But did you read the entirety of my post? I'm fine with moving on, but I'd like to know, if you can see where I'm coming from here and why I think Vegeta's line is a blatant inconsistency.If can already see this discussion not going anywhere.If then i'll stop this.
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apex_pretador
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Ginyu said he maxed out at 85,000 (before using kaioken), and goku used kaioken, not kaioken x2.Hugo Boss wrote:Both the situations were a kaioken x2. Ginyu almost guessed Goku's power right, because he was at 90,000 at that moment. When he fought Nappa and Vegeta his kaioken was at 16,000.
In fight vs saiyans :
- Goku uses kaioken against nappa, and kaioken x2, x3 against vegeta, and also said that he couldn't do anything even with kaioken x2.
- Kaio heavily implied that KK x2 was the limit for goku. It implies that it is above the basic kaioken.
- Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P14.1
Context: after Goku tells Ginyu to watch his scouter
Ginyu: "Kukkukku... I don't have to look at my scouter. You should most likely be able to raise it up to 85,000."
Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P14.6-7
Context: as Goku starts using the Kaio-Ken
Ginyu: "Ni... 90,000...?! 100,000... 110,000... I'm... impossible... it can't be... It's st... still rising...!"
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
The point is.Recoom powered up,and no mention of his ki rising whatsoever.Even if the attack was interrupted.His ki should have risen up when he charge up,but it didn't.dbgtFO wrote:Yes, the attack Goku interrupted, like I said.
Again.Vegeta/Nappa made a big deal out of the earthlings controlling there power level.And as i posted above.Charging doesn't automatically mean you can control your power level because Recoom does the same thing and he can't control his power level.I explained in the post why and yes it's because it's an inconsistency from our point of view:
In Freeza Arc, "controlling one's battle power" means suppressing power, powering up, charging ki blast, transforming & using Kaio-ken.
Ginyu and Zarbon are the only of Freeza's henchmen confirmed to be capable of changing their battle powers. Everyone else don't power up or anything like the Z fighters.
Thus it's simple to conclude that powering up like what Nappa and Vegeta did in the Saiyan Arc is changing one's battle power, like Vegeta claimed he didn't know how to until his battle on Earth. Thus inconsistency.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
No, it's quite simple. When Goku says "kaioken", his power multiplies by 2. Thus, kaioken and kaioken x2 mean the same boost.apex_pretador wrote:I know it is really confusing, that's why I made a no-multiplier list.
Chapter: 229 (DBZ 35), P1.1
Narrator: “Vegeta's strength has greatly surpassed what Goku had figured on...! That power was such that not even the Kaio-Ken, which doubled Goku's battle power, could give Goku the upper hand... What will you do?! Goku!!"
Kaioken x3 is a specific figure.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Indeed it should and it probably did. We don't get past the characters' initial reaction(Krillin and Gohan in shock and about to run) though, because Goku interrupted him.SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:The point is.Recoom powered up,and no mention of his ki rising whatsoever.Even if the attack was interrupted.His ki should have risen up when he charge up,but it didn't.
Indeed they do and this is the crux of the argument.Again.Vegeta/Nappa made a big deal out of the earthlings controlling there power level.
If they can't change their battle power, but they still obviously power up, then what are they doing?
We go through the entire Freeza Arc with a clear consistency laid out: characters, who don't change their battle power, don't power up either, yet Nappa and Vegeta supposedly weren't changing their battle powers either, but they do power up.
Even if one was to theorize, that whatever they did wouldn't register as a change on scouters, it still does to the Z-fighters, effectively meaning that they do power-up and that Nappa indeed does not walk around in battle mode all the time, as the original argument stemmed from.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
There's Vegeta though.And he didn't say anything.Recoom was able to said more than one word before he got interrupted.And we got no comment whatsoever.dbgtFO wrote:Indeed it should and it probably did. We don't get past the characters' initial reaction(Krillin and Gohan in shock and about to run) though, because Goku interrupted him.
There are many implications that Nappa and Vegeta can't change their ki and i already posted them.Wether which one is the inconsistency is up to you.But i'd pick a plot point over some couple of shots anyday.Indeed they do and this is the crux of the argument.
If they can't change their battle power, but they still obviously power up, then what are they doing?
We go through the entire Freeza Arc with a clear consistency laid out: characters, who don't change their battle power, don't power up either, yet Nappa and Vegeta supposedly weren't changing their battle powers either, but they do power up.
Even if one was to theorize, that whatever they did wouldn't register as a change on scouters, it still does to the Z-fighters, effectively meaning that they do power-up and that Nappa indeed does not walk around in battle mode all the time, as the original argument stemmed from.
We get to see many times in the series that characters who can sense ki can't estimate the power/person well if they're far or not fighting.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Yea, Hugo Boss is right. Kaioken and Kaiokenx2 are the same thing.
And completely agreed with dbgtFO. While was implied that Nappa and Vegeta cannot alteir their battle power, both of them indeed did a power-up on Earth.
Vegeta said something like "It seems you have hit your limit, so let me show you something before you die... the overwhelming power of a Saiyan elite", to which Goku was like "Ohh" before saying "what ki".
Vegeta's line on Namek might suggest otherwise but it sounds like a power-up to me.
And completely agreed with dbgtFO. While was implied that Nappa and Vegeta cannot alteir their battle power, both of them indeed did a power-up on Earth.
Vegeta said something like "It seems you have hit your limit, so let me show you something before you die... the overwhelming power of a Saiyan elite", to which Goku was like "Ohh" before saying "what ki".
Vegeta's line on Namek might suggest otherwise but it sounds like a power-up to me.
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DanielSSJ
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
The whole Kaioken =/= Kaioken x2 thing is an inconsistency that only exists in the Saiyan Arc. Goku was using a Kaioken x2 against Ginyu and his normal power was 90,000. The 85,000 number was an estimation from Ginyu, who can't sense Ki and was't using a scouter at the time. I know that this is a "no multiplier" list, but considering the technique has the phrase "times _" in the name, and is defined by its ability to multiply one's powet level, I don't see a reason to make up your own undefined rules for it.apex_pretador wrote:Kaioken provides uneven boosts. In the battle against vegeta, it was made pretty clear that KK x2 > KK, and goku (namek) , who was 85,000 tops, was able to reach 180,000 with only Kaioken (not even KK x2). In the battle against vegeta, Kaioken was providing boost directly proportional to his own battle power. (also, this is no multiplier list)DanielSSJ wrote:I don't see how a Kaioken x10 granting a 3x boost is logical. Or a Kaioken x20 granting a 6x boost, for that matter.
Any other inconsistency you found?
As far as the whole "The Saiyans can't control their Ki" thing, I've always understood it as they can't actively raise or lower their power level at will, but they can power up from a relaxed state, like what Vegeta did when he started fighting Goku. Evidence of this is how Piccolo didn't realize Vegeta was the stronger of the two, untill he saw Nappa cowering.
If the Saiyans were at full power 24/7, then there would be no confusion about who was in charge.Piccolo: The waybthe big one cowered... That must mean... that the little one is even more powerful. It's hopeless!
My Official Unofficial Battle Power list (in-progress: updated 11/8/2022—FREEZA ARC COMPLETED)
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
What do you think of these numbers?
Freeza (100%) : 140,000,000
Goku SSJ (Namek) : 150,000,000
Future Gohan SSJ [1 arm] : 180,000,000 (50% of future #17)
Future Trunks SSJ [Mecha saga] : 200,000,000
Son Goku [Mecha saga] : 220,000,000
Piccolo [Androids saga] : 250,000,000
Future Trunks SSJ [Androids saga] : 300,000,000
Son Goku SSJ [Androids saga] : 330,000,000
Vegeta SSJ [Androids saga] : 340,000,000
#18 : 450,000,000 (future: 330,000,000)
#17 : 500,000,000 (future: 360,000,000)
Sounds good?
Freeza (100%) : 140,000,000
Goku SSJ (Namek) : 150,000,000
Future Gohan SSJ [1 arm] : 180,000,000 (50% of future #17)
Future Trunks SSJ [Mecha saga] : 200,000,000
Son Goku [Mecha saga] : 220,000,000
Piccolo [Androids saga] : 250,000,000
Future Trunks SSJ [Androids saga] : 300,000,000
Son Goku SSJ [Androids saga] : 330,000,000
Vegeta SSJ [Androids saga] : 340,000,000
#18 : 450,000,000 (future: 330,000,000)
#17 : 500,000,000 (future: 360,000,000)
Sounds good?
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ZombieVito
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Freeza was nowhere near that close to SSJ Goku.
120 million fits perfectly.
120 million fits perfectly.
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apex_pretador
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Seeing how you are basing these numbers upon the power of namek SS goku (you obviously need a base), here are the issues:ahill1 wrote:What do you think of these numbers?
Freeza (100%) : 140,000,000
Goku SSJ (Namek) : 150,000,000
Future Gohan SSJ [1 arm] : 180,000,000 (50% of future #17)
Future Trunks SSJ [Mecha saga] : 200,000,000
Son Goku [Mecha saga] : 220,000,000
Piccolo [Androids saga] : 250,000,000
Future Trunks SSJ [Androids saga] : 300,000,000
Son Goku SSJ [Androids saga] : 330,000,000
Vegeta SSJ [Androids saga] : 340,000,000
#18 : 450,000,000 (future: 330,000,000)
#17 : 500,000,000 (future: 360,000,000)
Sounds good?
- Future trunks (trunks arc) = Namek goku. Gohan flat-out said they ARE SAME, and Yadrat goku wasn't stated to have powered up this much from Namek. All Yadrat goku did was learning IT, and controlling SS transformation. He didn't train as much to increase power. His gains, IF ANY, must not be comparable to his 3 yr exceptionally hard training with piccolo & gohan.
- Future gohan should be lower due to above argument, and future trunks was said to be about equal to F gohan pre death. I think they both must be very close to Namek goku.
- Future #17 can't be 2x one-armed gohan. 1-arm gohan was confident in beating 50% #17 and #18 at the same time without his other arm.
- Future trunks (android arc) can't be that close to future androids.
- Kami said that even super saiyans, who can destroy freeza and still couldn't fight android 17. So it is implied that piccolo must be below Freeza.
freeza was able to straight up fly through KHH from SS goku with his forcefield. He seemingly had the upperhand in their fight before porunga appeared. Only after he got tired, did goku completely stomp him & call him worthless opponent.Zombie wrote:Freeza was nowhere near that close to SSJ Goku.
120 million fits perfectly.
Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread
Hey guys, I know this is a heated topic, but I was trying to develop some Majin Buu numbers based on his transformations, which are complicated, so without further ado:
8.0 - Buff Buu
.... - Super Buu
4.0 - Kid Buu
3.2 - Fat Buu
.... - Evil Buu
1.6 - Good Buu
2.0 - South Kaioshin
0.4 - Dai Kaioshin
Merely multiplication based, how do you explain Super Buu being stronger than Fat Buu with Evil Buu having split from the latter? I made Good Buu the hypothetical Kid Buu with just Dai Kaioshin absorbed.
8.0 - Buff Buu
.... - Super Buu
4.0 - Kid Buu
3.2 - Fat Buu
.... - Evil Buu
1.6 - Good Buu
2.0 - South Kaioshin
0.4 - Dai Kaioshin
Merely multiplication based, how do you explain Super Buu being stronger than Fat Buu with Evil Buu having split from the latter? I made Good Buu the hypothetical Kid Buu with just Dai Kaioshin absorbed.