Stronger or weaker after absorbing South Kaioushin?

erik-the-red · Post by **erik-the-red** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:00 pm

Interesting posts.

For many years, I always thought that Kid Buu was actually the strongest form, but it appears that most users here feel that Super Buu is stronger.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:40 pm

erik-the-red wrote:Interesting posts.

For many years, I always thought that Kid Buu was actually the strongest form, but it appears that most users here feel that Super Buu is stronger.

If Kid Buu's the strongest, Goku is stronger than Vegetto.

gohanku · Post by **gohanku** » Fri Feb 02, 2007 9:26 pm

Umm, me not making sense? It very simple as Rocketman stated sometime ago. Vegeta understimate many people. Freeza, Cell and Buu! He understimate every villian he meets! And you know the ship, Babidi was in? That ship. And Majin Buu is stronger than Kid Buu. It like this, 3=Kid Buu, 2=South Kaioshin, 1=Dai Kaioshin. 3 absorbs 2 and becomes 5, 5 then absorbs 1 making him into 6, which is Majin Buu. So it was making him a bit stronger than Buff Buu but still stronger than Majin Buu.

Magneto · Post by **Magneto** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:09 am

Vegeta underestimating Buu is a character trait. He did the same thing when he fought Freeza, #18, Perfect Cell, Fat Buu...

Vegeta's not very trustworthy on these matters.

Vegeta witnessed the entire transformation from Super Buu to Kid Buu , with the fluctuation in powerlevel . So he sensed Kid Buu`s powerlevel when he first appeard , yet later he said that he is stronger than he thought . Or your suggesting Vegeta can`t sense powerlevels ?

And Vegeta underestimating somebody is one thing , but Goku doing the same thing ? He was the one who actually played the rock paper scissors game with Vegeta , so he actually would have let Vegeta fight him . Why would he do that , since Kid Buu can kill him in an instant ? Goku also said that he thought he could do better against Kid Buu .

Or, he could be refering to them not being fused, since he then says it's Vegeta's fault for crushing the Potara.

Since like this means current condition it means that Goku was reffering to both their size and unfused . As Vegeto they managed to beat a stronger Buu as a candy , so even at that size they would have beat Super Buu if they would have been fused , that`s why Goku said it`s Vegeta`s fault for crushing the potara .

Or, that he's recapping, thinking "Aw, fuck, we have to beat him before we can get out?"

And this is your way of trying to disaprove a point ?

No, that shows he's glad they did turn back to normal.

You do know what the word everybody means right ? Besides , they had a "wtf" expression on their face (I`m reffering to Goku & Vegeta) right after exiting Super Buu`s body even before they saw that the rest were back to normal also .

Interesting posts.

For many years, I always thought that Kid Buu was actually the strongest form, but it appears that most users here feel that Super Buu is stronger.

Kid Buu isn`t the strongest form of Buu . Super Buu with Gohan and Super Buu with Gotenks are both stronger than him . As for normal Super Buu and Fat Buu , they are both weaker than him .

If Kid Buu's the strongest, Goku is stronger than Vegetto.

Not really

Umm, me not making sense? It very simple as Rocketman stated sometime ago. Vegeta understimate many people. Freeza, Cell and Buu! He understimate every villian he meets! And you know the ship, Babidi was in? That ship. And Majin Buu is stronger than Kid Buu. It like this, 3=Kid Buu, 2=South Kaioshin, 1=Dai Kaioshin. 3 absorbs 2 and becomes 5, 5 then absorbs 1 making him into 6, which is Majin Buu. So it was making him a bit stronger than Buff Buu but still stronger than Majin Buu.

Underestimating them and actually sensing their powerlevels and then later saying that he is stronger than you thought are 2 different things . But I`m right in both cases . If Vegeta underestimated him it means that it was because of his size , which proves that the comments made when Kid Buu first appeared are nullified . And if it is the fact that his power was supressed and he revealed it only later , then again the points are nullified .
And I was actually waiting for you to say that you are reffering to that ship , because it just proves you wrong . The ship had nothing to do with the energy transfer .The energy was directly transferred to Boo , as it was shown during the fight between Goku & Majin Vegeta . Every damage Vegeta inflicted on Goku went to Buu directly , Buu being in the cocoon .

So let`s get this straight . Dabura stated that they can`t use Kaioshin energy in order to revive Buu . Since the energy was directly transferred to Buu it means that Buu can`t use Kaioshin energy which proves that Southern Kaioushin couldn`t have made him stronger . What`s so hard to understand ?

Mystic Jack · Post by **Mystic Jack** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 7:57 am

Just because Kaioshin's energy didn't count in the initial hatching does not mean it dosen't help the hatchling (AKA Boo

) Energy is energy and unless you can prove it with any more dashing quotes I'm convinced South Kaio's power helped Boo somewhat.

Magneto · Post by **Magneto** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 8:00 am

It`s the same thing . The energy is used to powerup Buu in both cases .

Neon Z · Post by **Neon Z** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 9:29 am

First of all , when Kaioshin explains the history of Buu , he says that Buu`s power reduced with absorption . By this I understand the fact that Kid Buu`s power reduced with his ability to absorb , meaning that both of them decreased his power.

I like how you completely ignore context. Kaioshin says that just after he talks about the absorption of Dai Kaioshin.

I've seen a direct translation of that part, with several comments, and, while it could possibly be referring to both absorptions, that seems rather unlikely. He only talks about power reduction after he talks about Dai Kaioshin and says nothing about the first absorption.

Besides, it isn't only Viz, in that matter. The official Brazilian version of the manga also agrees with that point (even though it's completely unrelated to the Viz translation).

So let`s get this straight . Dabura stated that they can`t use Kaioshin energy in order to revive Buu . Since the energy was directly transferred to Buu it means that Buu can`t use Kaioshin energy which proves that Southern Kaioushin couldn`t have made him stronger . What`s so hard to understand ?

The energy wasn't directly absorbed by Majin Buu, considering Majin Buu himself wasn't getting it, it was just transfered.

The only thing that proves is that whatever means Babidi used to collect energy wasn't compatible with the Kaioshins. Considering Babidi didn't even create Majin Buu, I don't see how that has much relevance.

The main problem with Kid Buu being stronger than Super Buu is that it makes South Kaioshin pointless. If the storyline went with Dai Kaioshin being the only one absorbed by Kid Buu, it'd have no change, if you're correct. Toriyama went out of his way to describe (the strongest Kaioshin) and give a character design to South Kai. What would be the point of that description, or even his entire introduction, if he had no relevance at all to the plot?

Magneto · Post by **Magneto** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:08 am

I like how you completely ignore context. Kaioshin says that just after he talks about the absorption of Dai Kaioshin.

I've seen a direct translation of that part, with several comments, and, while it could possibly be referring to both absorptions, that seems rather unlikely. He only talks about power reduction after he talks about Dai Kaioshin and says nothing about the first absorption.

Besides, it isn't only Viz, in that matter. The official Brazilian version of the manga also agrees with that point (even though it's completely unrelated to the Viz translation).

It seems you ignore the context . First , Kaioshin talks about the fact that Boo killed 2 Kaioshins , and then he absorbed the strongest of them , South Kaioshin . He doesn`t mention anything about Buu getting stronger or weaker because of this absorbtion . Then Kaioshin talks about Dai Kaioshin (King God) . After this , Old Kai`s following statements are next Then it is complete . So this small wicked Boo is the most troublesome one fromt he beginning . And only after this follows Kaioshin`s statement about Boo`s power decreasing with absorption , so it isn`t in context with him talking about Dai Kaioshin , it`s in context with everything that happened .

The energy wasn't directly absorbed by Majin Buu, considering Majin Buu himself wasn't getting it, it was just transfered.

The only thing that proves is that whatever means Babidi used to collect energy wasn't compatible with the Kaioshins. Considering Babidi didn't even create Majin Buu, I don't see how that has much relevance.

As a matter of fact the energy was directly transfered to Majin Buu`s body , since the whole purpose of it was to bring Majin Buu to full power . Every damage inflicted on Goku by Majin Vegeta was powering Buu up more and more . And since it is stated that he can`t use energy from Kaioshin it means that Kaioshin energy can`t make Buu stronger .

The main problem with Kid Buu being stronger than Super Buu is that it makes South Kaioshin pointless. If the storyline went with Dai Kaioshin being the only one absorbed by Kid Buu, it'd have no change, if you're correct. Toriyama went out of his way to describe (the strongest Kaioshin) and give a character design to South Kai. What would be the point of that description, or even his entire introduction, if he had no relevance at all to the plot?

You got that backwards . If Buff Buu was stronger than both Kid Buu and Super Buu his purpose in the story would be none . His introduction into the story was to show that Kid Buu is in fact stronger than Super Buu , to make the difference between the two Boo`s .

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 11:53 am

Magneto wrote:Vegeta witnessed the entire transformation from Super Buu to Kid Buu , with the fluctuation in powerlevel . So he sensed Kid Buu`s powerlevel when he first appeard , yet later he said that he is stronger than he thought . Or your suggesting Vegeta can`t sense powerlevels ?

Vegeta witnessed the whole transformation of Freeza to his final form and still thought he could win.

Vegeta witnessed the whole transformation of Cell to his perfect form and still thought he could win.

And Vegeta underestimating somebody is one thing , but Goku doing the same thing ? He was the one who actually played the rock paper scissors game with Vegeta , so he actually would have let Vegeta fight him . Why would he do that , since Kid Buu can kill him in an instant ? Goku also said that he thought he could do better against Kid Buu.

Since like this means current condition it means that Goku was reffering to both their size and unfused . As Vegeto they managed to beat a stronger Buu as a candy , so even at that size they would have beat Super Buu if they would have been fused , that`s why Goku said it`s Vegeta`s fault for crushing the potara.

That's why I was saying. "We could beat him if fused, even though we are small" does not equal "We could beat him if we where big and unfused."

Also, why would Goku want Vegeta to fight Super Buu?

And this is your way of trying to disaprove a point ?

Yeah. Goku knows they can't win. Mini-Super Buu can regenerate from the big Super Buu around them.

You do know what the word everybody means right ? Besides , they had a "wtf" expression on their face (I`m reffering to Goku & Vegeta) right after exiting Super Buu`s body even before they saw that the rest were back to normal also .

And you wouldn't have a "wtf" expression in that situation?

If Kid Buu's the strongest, Goku is stronger than Vegetto.
Not really

Depends on the meaning of "strongest". I thought he meant Kid Buu was stronger than Super Gohan Buu.

So let`s get this straight . Dabura stated that they can`t use Kaioshin energy in order to revive Buu . Since the energy was directly transferred to Buu it means that Buu can`t use Kaioshin energy which proves that Southern Kaioushin couldn`t have made him stronger . What`s so hard to understand ?

Then how could the fat Supreme Kai make him weaker?

Acid_Reign · Post by **Acid_Reign** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 12:09 pm

I really would rather not engage in this anymore, but for the record, energy, even if it can't be utilized in one form, can always be transformed to another one. Electric generators, for instance, transform mechanical energy provided by water (which we can't use to light houses) into electricity (which we can). So the notion that there is something inherent in a Kaioshin's Ki that can not be utilized in any form is rather ridiculous.

Neon Z · Post by **Neon Z** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 1:08 pm

First , Kaioshin talks about the fact that Boo killed 2 Kaioshins , and then he absorbed the strongest of them , South Kaioshin . He doesn`t mention anything about Buu getting stronger or weaker because of this absorbtion . Then Kaioshin talks about Dai Kaioshin (King God) . After this , Old Kai`s following statements are next Then it is complete . So this small wicked Boo is the most troublesome one fromt he beginning . And only after this follows Kaioshin`s statement about Boo`s power decreasing with absorption , so it isn`t in context with him talking about Dai Kaioshin , it`s in context with everything that happened .

However, "everything that happened" was mainly Fat Buu's origin story. Elder Kai even interrupted Kaioshin and asked if he turned into the Fat Buu after absorbing South. Right after he talks about Fat Boo, Kaioshin makes a comment about Kid Buu, and his next sentence is about absorption. It's still in the same context. He obviously isn't talking about absorption in general, because that was clearly shown to raise (Super) Buu's power level, and the last mentioned absorption was the one of Dai Kaioshin, not South.

Yes, he might be talking about those two absorptions, one of the possible translations of that sentence is "the absorptions reduced his power", but that seems rather unlikely.

As a matter of fact the energy was directly transfered to Majin Buu`s body , since the whole purpose of it was to bring Majin Buu to full power . Every damage inflicted on Goku by Majin Vegeta was powering Buu up more and more . And since it is stated that he can`t use energy from Kaioshin it means that Kaioshin energy can`t make Buu stronger .

What...? You completely failed to reply my last message and just repeated the words I had quoted.

Majin Buu himself wasn't getting the energyfor himself, he was receiving it. The fact that Kaioshin's energy couldn't be used only proves that the means used to send the energy to Majin Buu were incompatible with Kaoshin, it says nothing about Kaioshin's energy itself and Majin Buu.

You got that backwards . If Buff Buu was stronger than both Kid Buu and Super Buu his purpose in the story would be none . His introduction into the story was to show that Kid Buu is in fact stronger than Super Buu , to make the difference between the two Boo`s .

Take Buff Buu out of the story. Using your theory, you'd still have Super Buu powering up after he transformed into something when Vegeta took out Fat Buu and becoming Kid. Nothing would really change...

However, assuming that Super is stronger than Kid, South Kaioshin does have a function- he's the reason Super Buu was stronger than Kid Buu (and made Goku think he needed fusion to win, unlike in his fight against Kid).

Besides, what is the source of good Fat Buu's power? If you assume that Kaoshin's energy can't be used by Buu, how could that good Fat Buu have any power, considering the original Buu's power was with Kid Buu and they were existing at the same time? That power must have come from somewhere, and the Kaioshins are the only explanation.

Mystic Jack · Post by **Mystic Jack** » Sat Feb 03, 2007 6:24 pm

I really would rather not engage in this anymore, but for the record, energy, even if it can't be utilized in one form, can always be transformed to another one. Electric generators, for instance, transform mechanical energy provided by water (which we can't use to light houses) into electricity (which we can). So the notion that there is something inherent in a Kaioshin's Ki that can not be utilized in any form is rather ridiculous.

*claps* Thank you for giving me an opinion I can actually agree with.

Magneto · Post by **Magneto** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 9:11 am

Vegeta witnessed the whole transformation of Freeza to his final form and still thought he could win.

Vegeta witnessed the whole transformation of Cell to his perfect form and still thought he could win.

As a matter of fact Vegeta didn`t witness Freeza`s final transformation , because he was half dead and was waiting for Dende to heal him . As for Cell , using him an example you just proved yourself wrong . When he first appeared Cell was supressed , and was later revealed to be a lot stronger than he seemed . So comparing this 2 situations (Kid Buu and Cell) only shows how wrong you are .

And it seems you ignored my post concerning Goku . Don`t worry , you can`t trick me that way .

As I said , there are 2 posibilities here :

1.Both Goku & Vegeta underestimated Buu because of his size , not taking his powerlevel into an account , but later Buu proved himself to be a lot stronger than they thought .
2.When he first appeared , Kid Buu`s powerlevel was supressed , that they thought individually each one of them could fight him , because of the rock paper scissors game , but Kid Buu later revealed his true power .

In both cases , the comments that Goku & Vegeta made when Kid Buu first appeared are useless .

That's why I was saying. "We could beat him if fused, even though we are small" does not equal "We could beat him if we where big and unfused."

Also, why would Goku want Vegeta to fight Super Buu?

As a matter of fact it suggests that if they were at their normal size outside they could beat him , but since they were smaller than a flea they needed to be Vegeto in order to win at that size .
Why would Goku want Vegeta to fight Super Buu ? What`s that gotta do with anything ?

Yeah. Goku knows they can't win. Mini-Super Buu can regenerate from the big Super Buu around them.

No , Goku seemed willing to fight Super Buu in order to find an exit , thus the statement he made . When him and Buu are at the same size Goku is willing to fight him , proving again that the first statement was because of his size .

And you wouldn't have a "wtf" expression in that situation?

Why would I have one ? If Goku expected to return to his normal size why would he have the shocked look on his face and be surprized and happy about the fact that everybody returned to normal ? This shows that he didn`t expect to regain his size once outside .

Depends on the meaning of "strongest". I thought he meant Kid Buu was stronger than Super Gohan Buu.

And if he meant that Kid Buu was stronger than Super Buu w/Gohan how would that make Goku stronger than Vegeto ?

Then how could the fat Supreme Kai make him weaker?

What in my post suggests that Fat Kaioshin couldn`t have made him weaker ? All I showed is that no Kaioshin could have made him stronger .

However, "everything that happened" was mainly Fat Buu's origin story. Elder Kai even interrupted Kaioshin and asked if he turned into the Fat Buu after absorbing South. Right after he talks about Fat Boo, Kaioshin makes a comment about Kid Buu, and his next sentence is about absorption. It's still in the same context. He obviously isn't talking about absorption in general, because that was clearly shown to raise (Super) Buu's power level, and the last mentioned absorption was the one of Dai Kaioshin, not South.

Yes, he might be talking about those two absorptions, one of the possible translations of that sentence is "the absorptions reduced his power", but that seems rather unlikely.

Elder Kai interrupted Kaioshin and asked if he turned into Fat Buu after absorbing South Kaioshin ? As a matter of fact no , he didn`t . He asked him if the buff form they saw earlier was the form Boo attained when he absorbed South Kaioshin , in which Kaioshin replied Yes . Then he talked about how absorbing Dai Kaioshin brought Buu under control , and at this point Kaioshin was done in talking about Dai Kaioshin . And then Old Kaioshin makes the remark that this Boo is the most troublesome from the beginning , in which Kaioshin replies yes , and that his power decreased with absorption .
The word "absorption" doesn`t have a plural in the Japanese language , because it reffers to the concept of absorbing . That`s why I`m saying that when Kaioshin said this , he was talking about the fact that both of the Kaioshins weakened him .

What...? You completely failed to reply my last message and just repeated the words I had quoted.

Majin Buu himself wasn't getting the energyfor himself, he was receiving it. The fact that Kaioshin's energy couldn't be used only proves that the means used to send the energy to Majin Buu were incompatible with Kaoshin, it says nothing about Kaioshin's energy itself and Majin Buu.

As a matter of fact , the energy was used directly to powerup Majin Boo . And what means are you talking about ? Every damage inflicted from one of Babidi`s henchemen to another person makes Buu recive that person`s energy (proven in the fight that Goku had against Majin Vegeta) , so if the energy can`t be used to powerup Buu it means none of the Kaioshins did .
And as a matter of fact it says about Kaioshin`s energy itself and Majin Buu . They say they can`t use Kaioshin`s energy to revive Buu . Get your facts straight .

Take Buff Buu out of the story. Using your theory, you'd still have Super Buu powering up after he transformed into something when Vegeta took out Fat Buu and becoming Kid. Nothing would really change...

However, assuming that Super is stronger than Kid, South Kaioshin does have a function- he's the reason Super Buu was stronger than Kid Buu (and made Goku think he needed fusion to win, unlike in his fight against Kid).

Besides, what is the source of good Fat Buu's power? If you assume that Kaoshin's energy can't be used by Buu, how could that good Fat Buu have any power, considering the original Buu's power was with Kid Buu and they were existing at the same time? That power must have come from somewhere, and the Kaioshins are the only explanation.

No , Buff Buu was introduced as a middle stage between the transformation from Super Buu to Kid Buu for the exact reason to show Kid Buu is stronger than Super Buu . What exactly would be the point in introducing Buff Buu in the transformation from Super Buu to Kid Buu if he would be useless to the story ? Why would Buff Buu be made stronger than Super Buu if South Kaioshin is truly the source of Super Buu`s power ?
And since Good Buu was nore more directly connected to Kid Buu , his power was that of South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin . He was practiclly a combination between them . If you think about it , Good Buu and Kid Buu exiting is actually a paradox .

Son_GokouSSJ4 · Post by **Son_GokouSSJ4** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 11:00 am

Is there a prize on this thread...?
Like..."Prove your point even if you have to kill/abuse the other board members, and win this FANTASTIC (insert prize here)!

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:32 pm

Son_GokouSSJ4 wrote:Is there a prize on this thread...?
Like..."Prove your point even if you have to kill/abuse the other board members, and win this FANTASTIC (insert prize here)!

It's more like "see how much you can cheapen the story of Dragonball by arguing over small details at it and yelling at each other for disagreeing".

Daizensushi-x · Post by **Daizensushi-x** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:41 pm

Son_GokouSSJ4 wrote:Is there a prize on this thread...?
Like..."Prove your point even if you have to kill/abuse the other board members, and win this FANTASTIC (insert prize here)!

Yeah, maybe this topic should be locked, it could go on forever....

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:47 pm

Magneto wrote:As a matter of fact Vegeta didn`t witness Freeza`s final transformation , because he was half dead and was waiting for Dende to heal him . As for Cell , using him an example you just proved yourself wrong . When he first appeared Cell was supressed , and was later revealed to be a lot stronger than he seemed . So comparing this 2 situations (Kid Buu and Cell) only shows how wrong you are .

I was referring to all of Freeza's transformations. Vegeta saw how much power Freeza gained by transforming earlier, yet he still thought he could win.

I'll concede the Cell point. However, recall another one - when Fat Buu was released, Vegeta thought he (and/or Goku) could defeat him at Super Saiyan 2.

Anyways, my general point stands. Vegeta's not a reliable source for judging the power of people he fights.

1.Both Goku & Vegeta underestimated Buu because of his size , not taking his powerlevel into an account , but later Buu proved himself to be a lot stronger than they thought .
2.When he first appeared , Kid Buu`s powerlevel was supressed , that they thought individually each one of them could fight him , because of the rock paper scissors game , but Kid Buu later revealed his true power .

In both cases , the comments that Goku & Vegeta made when Kid Buu first appeared are useless .

I don't think the first point is valid. Vegeta might (and does/did) underestimate opponents because of their appearance, but Goku? Naw.

Second point, sure, I can buy that. However, I doubt he's stronger than Super Buu.

I think a lot of what looks like raw power for Kid Buu is his ferocity/faster regeneration. Add that to a Goku that can't use all his SSJ3 power (and can't use what he does have for very long) and a Vegeta who's stuck at SSJ2, and Kid Buu looks stronger than he is.

As a matter of fact it suggests that if they were at their normal size outside they could beat him , but since they were smaller than a flea they needed to be Vegeto in order to win at that size .

Why would Goku want Vegeta to fight Super Buu ? What`s that gotta do with anything ?

You argued a while ago that Kid Buu had to supress his power since Goku allowed Vegeta to play rock-paper-scissors. But if Goku was saying that they could win against Super Buu if they were normal size, that means he wanted Vegeta to fight Super Buu.

But Vegeta is weaker than the Fat Buu. He'd just get killed again if he fought Super Buu. Goku knows this. Therefore, Goku is arguing that they need to fuse to win, not that they can win just by being normal size.

No , Goku seemed willing to fight Super Buu in order to find an exit , thus the statement he made . When him and Buu are at the same size Goku is willing to fight him , proving again that the first statement was because of his size .

That's not 'willing'. That's "have no choice but to fight". It doesn't matter if Goku thinks he can win, he has to fight to be able to escape.

Why would I have one ? If Goku expected to return to his normal size why would he have the shocked look on his face and be surprized and happy about the fact that everybody returned to normal ? This shows that he didn`t expect to regain his size once outside .

Goku didn't know what to expect. They could've gone back to normal, or they could've stayed tiny, like they would've stayed candy without Buu turning them back.

So, he was surprised-happy that they did, in fact, get back to normal. They can fight then.

And if he meant that Kid Buu was stronger than Super Buu w/Gohan how would that make Goku stronger than Vegeto ?

Goku knew he couldn't fight Super Gohan Buu. Remember how he was about to fuse with Hercule permenantly in hopes on gaining some power?

Yet Vegetto beat SGhB around like nothing. If Kid Buu is stronger than SGhB, Goku staying alive while fighting him makes him (Goku) stronger (or as strong as, both are equally absurd) than Vegetto.

What in my post suggests that Fat Kaioshin couldn`t have made him weaker ? All I showed is that no Kaioshin could have made him stronger .

You were arguing he can't use Kaioshin energy. If he can't use it, how could it weaken him?

Tyro · Post by **Tyro** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 1:55 pm

Rocketman wrote:I'll concede the Cell point. However, recall another one - when Fat Buu was released, Vegeta thought he (and/or Goku) could defeat him at Super Saiyan 2.

Actually, that point isn't a great one. When Boo first hatched Gohan also thought that as a SSj2 he could possibly stand a chance against him. And Vegeta just mentioned that he was weak. But that's to be expected considering he was stronger than Gohan.

But then later (one power up from Boo right before fighting Dabra) Gohan loses all confidence in himself about standing a chance. However Vegeta is still able to complete own Boo one power up after that (when Vegeta makes fun of him). He only loses when Boo does that giant explosion.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:06 pm

Tyro wrote:Actually, that point isn't a great one. When Boo first hatched Gohan also thought that as a SSj2 he could possibly stand a chance against him.

And Gohan is a fucking moron.

Magneto · Post by **Magneto** » Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:08 pm

I was referring to all of Freeza's transformations. Vegeta saw how much power Freeza gained by transforming earlier, yet he still thought he could win.

I'll concede the Cell point. However, recall another one - when Fat Buu was released, Vegeta thought he (and/or Goku) could defeat him at Super Saiyan 2.

Anyways, my general point stands. Vegeta's not a reliable source for judging the power of people he fights.

He thought he could win against 1st form Freeza , and judging by the way he faired against him he had a chance . Against 2nd and 3rd form Freeza nobody stood a chance except Piccolo , and I already explained the situation about 4th form Freeza .
When Fat Buu was first released even Gohan thought he could beat him . It is well known that Majin Buu gets stronger by getting angry , and he was yet to reveal his true power when he first appeared , thus Gohan & Vegeta`s statements .
Vegeta might or might not be reliable , but Goku is . Goku would have actually let Vegeta fight against Kid Buu , eventough it is later stated that Kid Buu can instantly kill him . This again shows , that both of them misjudged Kid Buu .

I don't think the first point is valid. Vegeta might (and does/did) underestimate opponents because of their appearance, but Goku? Naw.

Second point, sure, I can buy that. However, I doubt he's stronger than Super Buu.

I think a lot of what looks like raw power for Kid Buu is his ferocity/faster regeneration. Add that to a Goku that can't use all his SSJ3 power (and can't use what he does have for very long) and a Vegeta who's stuck at SSJ2, and Kid Buu looks stronger than he is.

As I stated above , Goku was going to let Vegeta fight against Kid Buu eventough it`s stated later that Vegeta dosen`t stand a chance against him , and that Kid Buu could instantly kill him . This shows that both misjudged Kid Buu .

And if you actually agreed with one of the posibilities .. why did you start this discussion ? You just wasted time . The whole point was to show that the statements Goku & Vegeta made when first seeing Kid Buu were innacurate , and since you agreed with this .. there was no point in discussing it .

You argued a while ago that Kid Buu had to supress his power since Goku allowed Vegeta to play rock-paper-scissors. But if Goku was saying that they could win against Super Buu if they were normal size, that means he wanted Vegeta to fight Super Buu.

But Vegeta is weaker than the Fat Buu. He'd just get killed again if he fought Super Buu. Goku knows this. Therefore, Goku is arguing that they need to fuse to win, not that they can win just by being normal size.

And what do you think Goku would have done while Vegeta was fighting Super Buu ? By saying "we" Goku meant both of them fighting him , of course Vegeta would be nothing in that fight , but it doesn`t really matter . In this case he wouldn`t have let Vegeta fight alone against him .

That's not 'willing'. That's "have no choice but to fight". It doesn't matter if Goku thinks he can win, he has to fight to be able to escape.

If Goku thinks he can win , he can . So it doesn`t matter if it was a "no choice" fight , if Goku insinuates that he will win , he would .

Goku didn't know what to expect. They could've gone back to normal, or they could've stayed tiny, like they would've stayed candy without Buu turning them back.

So, he was surprised-happy that they did, in fact, get back to normal. They can fight then.

By saying that , I`ve just won . So Goku had no guarantee that once outside they would regain their normal size , so his statement inside of Buu was made because of their size .

Goku knew he couldn't fight Super Gohan Buu. Remember how he was about to fuse with Mr. Satan permenantly in hopes on gaining some power?

Yet Vegetto beat SGhB around like nothing. If Kid Buu is stronger than SGhB, Goku staying alive while fighting him makes him (Goku) stronger (or as strong as, both are equally absurd) than Vegetto.

What does Goku wanting to fuse with Mr Satan have to do with anything ? I`ve just asked you how would Goku be stronger than Vegeto if Kid Buu is stronger than Buu with Gohan , and you didn`t prove it . Vegeto could well be over 5 times stronger than Super Buu w/Gohan , and even if Kid Buu would be stronger than Super Buu w/Gohan I don`t see how it would make Goku stronger than Vegeto .

You were arguing he can't use Kaioshin energy. If he can't use it, how could it weaken him?

The whole purpose of using energy was to make Buu stronger . And since they stated that they can`t use it , it means that it can`t make Buu stronger . Nobody said anything about it not being able to make him weaker .