SSGSS Goku and Vegeta and Rage Boosts and Stuff

[Hitiro]

it is said by whis in the manga that he is capable of giving beerus a hard time, it is also common sense that he is not stronger then beerus thus why no one ever thought he was

Actually, no. Whis said that all of the people from Monaka's planet are exceptionally strong to the point that Beerus would have ha hard time against them. The point was not made about Monaka directly. Here are his words "Monaka is a hero on the planet of Wagashi, his home of origin. The people there are very docile and kind, but their true power is such that once they bear their fangs, even Beerus sama would have a difficult trying to corral them. So Beerus would have a difficult time against Monaka's people and Monaka is supposed to be their hero, ergo, the strongest of his people. Not that I see why we should rely on the manga anyway as it is not the source material. The anime is this time around.

seriously now your claiming hypothetical monoka >whis> beerus? he means strongest in the competition honestly that is not rocket science and to even claim such a things is absurdly ludicrous, whis says he can give beerus a hard time but he can beat whis no that is just very illogical

I'm sorry. I must be stupid for thinking that if Goku said "the strongest of universe 7" it is not talking about "universe 7" but actually the people in the tournament. If Goku meant the people in the tournament he would have said it as such. But what we are told is that Monaka is supposed to be the strongest in universe 7.

my logic is flawed? monoka is the strongest in the competition no where did goku say he is the strongest in universe 7 but in the competition onestly is this how illogical your are going now, i will address the rest later this is first

Anyway, Goku’s not worried, since they’ve still got Monaka, the strongest in Universe 7!

This is literally said in Huijo's synopsis. You even quoted it..

champa was not scared into his seat but knocked back off guard 0.0

That is not how stares work. Otherwise we would have seen it happen in more than this single instance. That is a really silly excuse for why he stumbled back into his seat. He was also babbling like an idiot so I guess they knocked his mind into being an idiot because he was off-guard?

bro you are being very illogical far more then me, first you claim goku thinks monoka > whis and then you say goku said monoka is the strongest, where in common sense land it means in the arena

Illogical is what you've been telling me to justify things like Champa being put back into his seat and babbling like an idiot. All of the points I have brought up have been fairly logical and generally make sense. Saying Champa got knocked back because he was "off-guard" is what really doesn't make any sense.

[ryan s]

ok lets work on the monoka point first, because it is getting overwhelming,

it is stated that monoka is the strongest beerus has fought can you give one instance where he is claimed to be stronger then beerus?

the actual line is strongest man in universe 7.

please show me the manga page with accurate subs

at this point you have already failed, to claim monoka > whis is absurd and the opposite is only ever implied

where has it ever been suggested to goku that monoka > beerus?

btw champa was not even looking at hit and goku they knocked him back as i said

looks like goku flat out said in the episode they can`t do nothing about beerus and champa meaning all your crazy theories are done in though i need better subs

[Hitiro]

ok lets work on the monoka point first, because it is getting overwhelming,

it is stated that monoka is the strongest beerus has fought can you give one instance where he is claimed to be stronger then beerus?

I never claimed he was stronger than Beerus only that the anime does not say whether he is stronger or weaker than Beerus. That much is clear. But Goku thinks he's the strongest in universe 7. Like Huijo said. And I have no reason to assume that Huijo was incorrect in his synopsis.

the actual line is strongest man in universe 7.

The subtitles I'm looking at say strongest fighter in universe 7. Also listening to the line I can't hear the Japanese word for man in the sentence.

please show me the manga page with accurate subs

I'm not going to put up scanlations because they are bad. You can just google search it "mangafox dragon ball super" go to chapter 7 and page 13.

at this point you have already failed, to claim monoka > whis is absurd and the opposite is only ever implied

Nothing is ever implied about Monaka's strength in relation to Whis. I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Lack of something being implied does not make the opposite true. If we're told he is a strong fighter that can either mean he is stronger than Whis or weaker than Whis. Without something to actually tie it to one meaning or the other it is up in the air and extremely vague. There are no lines suggesting that Monaka is stronger or weaker than Whis until possibly this current episode which Goku claims he is the strongest fighter of universe 7.

where has it ever been suggested to goku that monoka > beerus?

Where is it suggested that he's not? As with above it is left as very vague up until this point. Goku can either think he is stronger than Beerus or not. Because all Beerus said was that Monaka is freakishly strong. The other thing that could have swayed him is that Beerus told Goku that anyone who disturbs Monaka while he's meditating, whether friend or foe, will be mercilessly destroyed in an instant.

[ryan s]

i am going to argue like you.

this translation was from herms. Whis: “The name Monaka means ‘Grand Ponta’, I believe. Monaka is a hero who resides on the planet Wagashi. Though very quiet and gentle, once he gets down to business he is powerful enough to give even Lord Beerus a hard time.” http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 3#p1029253

Beerus said to Goku in the battle of gods arc that he is the strongest in this universe and he said monoka is the strongest he has fought no where is it said Whis is stronger, beerus > monoka> goku i also have to wait for dragon team subs to see what is truly said in this episode but

looks like beerus> monoka is confirmed and don`t try and say the anime is different because it is not, it depicts events differently not power of the characters

the manga is still going to have kaioken x10 goku vs hit and to even argue that goku will be stronger in the anime but not the manga is just silly

i already knew what you was saying was nonsense but atleast now i can confirm it

in the subs goku said there "ain`t much we can do about them two right now" the context was in terms of strength ie being pawns

i knew your translation was faulty after all why the hell would whis talk about the people on monokas planet when the context was monoka himself

[Hitiro]

i am going to argue like you.

Beerus said to Goku in the battle of gods arc that he is the strongest in this universe and he said monoka is the strongest he has fought no where is it said Whis is stronger, beerus > monoka> goku i also have to wait for dragon team subs to see what is truly said in this episode but

Beerus then later said that Whis is superior to him so that was disproved as him being the strongest in the universe. Like I said it's debatable as to how they take Beerus saying that Monaka is freakishly strong in the story because that could mean he is under, on par, or greater than Beerus in power. Nothing is stated for certain. It is you who is labelling strength levels and saying it must mean this or that. I merely said that we aren't told either way so Goku could be assuming that Monaka is superior to Beerus. As Huijo has said Goku stopped fighting because they apparently have universe 7's strongest fighter on their team.

in the subs goku said there "ain`t much we can do about them two right now" the context was in terms of strength ie being pawns

Or he could simply be on about persuading them to let them fight normally. As in "I don't think we can convince them to let us have our fight the way we want." Hence why he came up with the idea of jumping out of the ring.

[ryan s]

1) nowhere in dragon ball super anime was it stated Whis was stronger then beerus at least back up your claims (though it is illogical to think he is not but i am just mimicking you and your reasoning)
2) Beerus claims he is the strongest in this universe,ie 7
3) episode 30 when goku is telling krillin about monoka, krillin says there is someone even stronger then goku, if goku thought he was stronger then beerus, he would have told him that and used the stronger guy not the weaker (himself) as a comparison
4) episode 30 goku wants to close the gap on monoka in three years funny because goku was making the kaioken for beerus not monoka, logically beerus > monoka
5) Goku only knows that monoka is the strongest guy beerus has fought so your claim about goku calling him the strongest in the universe is clearly out of context as goku is not in the position to even know that.
6) Goku thinks "growing a little bit" will help close the gap with monoka yet with beerus he needed to multiply his power ten fold
7) Goku`s goal is Beerus as stated by himself, what is the big deal with surpassing Monoka? who is stronger then Beerus? why did he not make the kaioken for him? since when has goku aimed for the weaker opponent?

goku obviously realizes that beerus is stronger the evidence is there and his goal has always been to surpass Beerus, your argument is one from ignorance

it is pretty clear the anime follows the manga

also this translation was from herms. Whis: “The name Monaka means ‘Grand Ponta’, I believe. Monaka is a hero who resides on the planet Wagashi. Though very quiet and gentle, once he gets down to business he is powerful enough to give even Lord Beerus a hard time.” viewtopic.php?p=1029253#p1029253

[ryan s]

http://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/dragon_s/chara/23.html

[Herms]

"Goku’s not worried, since they’ve still got Monaka, the strongest in Universe 7" funny goku should be stronger then beerus right? this is from herms

That's incorrect, this is from Huijo, not Herms.

The Super episode summaries are indeed written by me, but I paste them into the first post of the episode discussion threads (usually made by Hujio or TripleRach) for convenience's sake.

[ryan s]

"Goku’s not worried, since they’ve still got Monaka, the strongest in Universe 7" funny goku should be stronger then beerus right? this is from herms

That's incorrect, this is from Huijo, not Herms.

The Super episode summaries are indeed written by me, but I paste them into the first post of the episode discussion threads (usually made by Hujio or TripleRach) for convenience's sake.

Herms is there anything in this episode that implies beerus is above goku? or goku above beerus?

[Hugo Boss]

If you don't mind, I may answer your question. What we have for now is that both the Hakaishins are treated as the "players", while Goku or Hit are the "pawns". Of course, there is that scene when Goku and Hit scare Champa when this fact is pointed out, but their current selves are still at the level of "pawns", wheter they like or not. This fits with the idea that Toriyama doesn't have plans to make Goku surpass Beerus or Whis, but that can be due to Goku putting kaioken aside again. The technique does have its drawback, and more importantly Vegeta acknowledges Goku has surpassed him once again, but he doesn't say nothing about Beerus or Whis. And Goku still believes Monaka is stronger than him, and he is implied to be somewhat close to Beerus. So, for now I think Goku still lays behind the Hakaishins.

[ryan s]

If you don't mind, I may answer your question. What we have for now is that both the Hakaishins are treated as the "players", while Goku or Hit are the "pawns". Of course, there is that scene when Goku and Hit scare Champa when this fact is pointed out, but their current selves are still at the level of "pawns", wheter they like or not. This fits with the idea that Toriyama doesn't have plans to make Goku surpass Beerus or Whis, but that can be due to Goku putting kaioken aside again. The technique does have its drawback, and more importantly Vegeta acknowledges Goku has surpassed him once again, but he doesn't say nothing about Beerus or Whis. And Goku still believes Monaka is stronger than him, and he is implied to be somewhat close to Beerus. So, for now I think Goku still lays behind the Hakaishins.

thanks

[Hitiro]

1) nowhere in dragon ball super anime was it stated Whis was stronger then beerus at least back up your claims (though it is illogical to think he is not but i am just mimicking you and your reasoning)

I was under the impression somewhere in Super Whis used the same numbers Akira Toriyama used as a measuring stick and Beerus was not happy with Whis saying he was that much stronger than him. But looking through Super I can't seem to find when this is said. Maybe I imagined it. But I did state it in another thread. But I'll just go with it wasn't stated in the story to go along with your reasoning. Where Whis is pegged in terms of strength would have no bearing on how strong Monaka is if he was claimed as the strongest in universe 7. In fact, if we're going to say Whis is weaker than Beerus who has a hard time with Monaka that would be further proof that Monaka could be classed as the strongest. No?

2) Beerus claims he is the strongest in this universe,ie 7

Freeza claimed to the be strongest in the universe despite knowing about Beerus and Whis and Boo. Does that make his statement true?

3) episode 30 when goku is telling krillin about monoka, krillin says there is someone even stronger then goku, if goku thought he was stronger then beerus, he would have told him that and used the stronger guy not the weaker (himself) as a comparison

Not necessarily. Characters like Oob and the Kaioshin get classified as strong characters when they are nowhere near Goku's level of strength. Even during the tournament in Super the characters who could only stand up to SSJ level Beyond God Saiyan's were classified as strong despite Goku and Vegeta having a whole other level of strength. Vague comments of strength do happen. Even back when Trunks first appeared nobody said he was stronger than Freeza. Just that he was incredibly strong.

4) episode 30 goku wants to close the gap on monoka in three years funny because goku was making the kaioken for beerus not monoka, logically beerus > monoka

You usually start from the bottom and work your way up. Logically if he was training to catch up to monoka and was planning to use Kaioken against Beerus then that would suggest his goal was "the strongest" and that Beerus was a stepping stone for that.

5) Goku only knows that monoka is the strongest guy beerus has fought so your claim about goku calling him the strongest in the universe is clearly out of context as goku is not in the position to even know that.

Goku stated he was the strongest in Universe 7 though. Regardless of his position for measuring him it is what he thinks that we're talking about. It doesn't matter if it is wrong. If he believes Monaka is the strongest then that is his fault.

6) Goku thinks "growing a little bit" will help close the gap with monoka yet with beerus he needed to multiply his power ten fold

I don't recall this. Even if Goku did say this then it is true that even growing a little bit would help in any scenario. Even given that Beerus is something like 100 and Goku is like a 9. Growing a little bit to a 11 will help him in the long rung when he uses Kaioken x 10 because he'd be 110 instead of 90. You also can't know that Goku wasn't planning on using KK in regards to Monaka as well. He said he had been planning for a while to use this technique once he perfected it. And never does Goku make the assertion that he needs to multiply his power ten fold. All he said was that he was going to use KK against Beerus. Whether that is 2x, 5x, or 10x is not clear. There is also the fact that Goku thought Monaka could win against Hit when Goku with his KKx10 couldn't. So was he assuming that Monaka is greater than his SSJB KKx10? If that is the case then your point of Goku growing a little bit to help close the gap is null and void if you're assuming that Goku just needs the little bit of growth and not the KKx10. Which is why it would be more likely that "growing a little bit" in conjunction with KKx10 would help close the gap. Growing a little bit is actually much more beneficial when using KK because that little bit can lead to a substantial difference like the example I gave above.

7) Goku`s goal is Beerus as stated by himself, what is the big deal with surpassing Monoka? who is stronger then Beerus? why did he not make the kaioken for him? since when has goku aimed for the weaker opponent?

Goku stated this goal before he even knew Monaka existed. And if you're saying why did he not make it for Monaka it is because his words were that he originally planned to use the technique to fight Beerus. Nothing suggests that he wasn't going to use it against other opponents but Beerus was the first opponent he had planned to use it on before he became aware of Monaka. Nothing is wrong with his words here. He is merely stating the original intent behind mastering the technique. He started to learn a way to merge SSJB with KK because of Beerus. Not Monaka.

goku obviously realizes that beerus is stronger the evidence is there and his goal has always been to surpass Beerus, your argument is one from ignorance

My argument is fair and thought out. Just because it doesn't agree with you doesn't give you the right to insult me.

it is pretty clear the anime follows the manga

That's not true. Because we have seen that the manga and anime handle things differently. Boo just fails the exam in the Super Manga because he is not smart. In the Anime he falls asleep during the exam and they can't wake him up.

also this translation was from herms. Whis: “The name Monaka means ‘Grand Ponta’, I believe. Monaka is a hero who resides on the planet Wagashi. Though very quiet and gentle, once he gets down to business he is powerful enough to give even Lord Beerus a hard time.” viewtopic.php?p=1029253#p1029253

Fair enough, but that doesn't really change anything.

"Goku’s not worried, since they’ve still got Monaka, the strongest in Universe 7" funny goku should be stronger then beerus right? this is from herms

That's incorrect, this is from Huijo, not Herms.

The Super episode summaries are indeed written by me, but I paste them into the first post of the episode discussion threads (usually made by Hujio or TripleRach) for convenience's sake.

My bad, I stand corrected.

[Desassina]

Hitiro, could you reply to his numbered points by numbering your own as well? Why did you have to break your post and his like that? Unreadable as it is, no one else is going to make a point, and you've just made yourself prone to nitpicking.

[ryan s]

I am on holiday and don't have good WiFi but at this point you are being illogical everyone sees it but you you may think you are being logical but there is a reason bo one agrees with you

Also I did not insult you

[Hugo Boss]

You don't need to tell him he is being illogical or ignorant, just because you don't agree with him. It's highly recommended we keep the discusions in a nice tone.

As Dragon Ball Super doesn't bother to explain our nitpickings, both your opinions could be perfectly valid.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

The rage boost wasn't as big as people think. He was only a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku, and that was back then, now SSJ3 is probably stronger. Don't forget Goku and Vegeta spent 3 years in the RoSaT before this tournament began.

[ryan s]

You don't need to tell him he is being illogical or ignorant, just because you don't agree with him. It's highly recommended we keep the discusions in a nice tone.

As Dragon Ball Super doesn't bother to explain our nitpickings, both your opinions could be perfectly valid.

All evidence and logical reasoning implies beerus> monoka the manga flat out says it

Everyone has know beerus > monoka since he was revealed, the official site says stronger then goku not beerus

It is illogical to think monoka > beerus when all evidence says otherwise

He just twists it and tries to explain it away

[Hugo Boss]

No, it's because the product we are discussing is inconsistent. If Goku states Monaka is the strongest in Universe 7 and Beerus is from Universe 7, then Monaka is stronger than Beerus. There is nothing wrong with this conclusion. Unless, of course, we try to fit it with the other implications in contrary.

[ryan s]

No, it's because the product we are discussing is inconsistent. If Goku states Monaka is the strongest in Universe 7 and Beerus is from Universe 7, then Monaka is stronger than Beerus. There is nothing wrong with this conclusion. Unless, of course, we try to fit it with the other implications in contrary.

Strongest guy in universe 7, beerus is a god and yes it is illogical it has been stated on the official website and the dragon ball super manga

All goku knows is that monoka is the strongest beerus has fought ofcourse he will claim he is the strongest guy this is common sense at this point all evidence says beerus> monoka, if beerus was surpassed they would obviously put emphasise on It

Yet fans try and work around common sense because it has not been stated directly and they love a certain character

Why would beerus put someone above himself? that in itself is out of character

First off If beerus could not even fight someone stronger then whis it would be a oneshot

[Hugo Boss]

If you read the quote from Ep. 40's synopsis, it's said Monaka is the strongest in Universe 7.. So, it's said he is stronger than Beerus and everyone else. There is no exception. This is a logical conclusion one can make. You can disagree with it or say it's poorly written, but the line says what it says. I would agree with you if it was said Monaka was the strongest combatant out of Universe 7 team.. which is different.