Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Saiyan007]

Yeah his body guards at the very least should be stronger than Beerus and Champa seeing as how they freaked out when they confronted Goku

[Kuririn Fan]

Zeno - strongest guy in Dragon Ball, confirmed!

[HeroR]

In the ep 42 preview, Goku powers up in base form like he did in RoF. Hmm...

Please no, please God base no! We don't need literally another wrench to throw into this insane mix

Goku is as strong as a Super Saiyan God in his base form and has been for quite some time. It is only on this forum that people seem to think that Goku is only as strong as Super Saiyan 3 (with this weird two bases theory), despite him taking hits from Beerus and not dying, while Super Saiyan 3 Goku got wasted in two hits. People here really underestimate how powerful these characters have become.

[SansrivaaL]

Zeno - strongest guy in Dragon Ball, confirmed!

Its a dude? I thought it was a girl.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Omni-King was referred to as "he" a few times.

[Herms]

Right, well with Super’s first entirely original story arc essentially over and done with, I got the urge to take my (not actually terribly original) tier system and apply it to Super so far. The idea being to avoid numbers and keep things to a very basic idea of “more or less equal” vs “clearly superior”. If one character’s badass special attack hits another character, but when the smoke clears they’re totally unharmed, then those characters are on two different tiers. If two characters trade blows evenly for an extended period of time, then (assuming neither is holding back) they’re on the same tier, even if they’re not necessarily 100% dead even.

There are no multipliers, but I take as a starting assumption the idea that most transformations will raise a character up at least one tier. There are no empty tiers: even if Character A is a gazillion times stronger than Character B, if there are no characters to slot between them, then A will simply be placed one tier up above B. Of course, if later an intermediate character does pop up, they then can be thrown in the middle there.

I haven’t read much of this thread up to this point, and didn’t even bother re-watching any episodes, but whatever. This isn’t supposed to be an authoritative guide or anything. Feel free to ignore.

I’m going to stick to the “relevant” characters (broadly defined) and not worry about Gohan/Gotenks/Piccolo/etc.

Battle of Gods arc

Characters to consider: Beerus, Whis, “My Bulma!”-Vegeta, Super Saiyan God Goku, and Super Saiyan Goku after absorbing SSG’s power

This arc’s pretty simple. While it’s not exactly spelled out during this story arc, I think it’s safe to place Whis a tier above Beerus. Beerus and SSG Goku have a long fight, and Beerus repeatedly claims to be using his full power, but in the end it’s established that he wasn’t really (not quite as explicitly as in BoG, but still). So, SSG Goku goes below Beerus. In BoG, Beerus talked about Goku “slightly” powering down after absorbing SSG’s power and reverting to regular SS again, but in Super we don’t even get this. I’ll put SSG Goku and post-SSG Goku on the same tier. “My Bulma!”-Vegeta should be weaker than them.

Whis
Beerus
SSG Goku, SS Goku (post-SSG)
“My Bulma!”-Vegeta

Resurrection “F” arc

Characters to consider: Goku (base and SSB), Vegeta (likewise), Freeza (4th-form and Golden)

Goku and Vegeta seem more or less equal now. Freeza’s powered up forth form…hmm, now I almost wish I had rewatched this arc. Almost. At first Goku is confident he can take him on without going Super Saiyan, and they fight for a good while, but then Goku determines he’ll have to go SSB after all. But does he do this because he knows Freeza has another transformation up his sleeve, or is even the fourth form too much for him in base? Eh, I’ll just say 4th form’s a tier above. Then Golden Freeza is repeatedly made out to be stronger than SSB Goku, and only loses because of his stamina issues. But for a list like this, do the stamina issues cancel out an advantage in raw power (placing him on the same overall tier as SSB) or do I still place him one higher? Hmmm…I’ll just go one higher. So…

Golden Freeza
SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta
4th-Form Freeza
Base Goku, Base Vegeta

Now, how to combine this with the BoG list? First, Whis and Beerus clearly go up above Golden Freeza. Freeza’s still scared shitless of Beerus in the movie, and even Toriyama confirms in Volume “F” that he’s no match. Now then, SSG vs SSB…apparently this is still controversial, but references to SSB being more powerful than SSG are as common as milkweed pollen, so I don’t see any reason to hesitate placing it a tier above. Presumably though, Base Goku+Vegeta still go below it. In that case, how does 4th Form Freeza stack up against SSG Goku? It’s tempting to place them in the same tier just for the hell of it, but out of fondness for SSG I’ll give it the advantage. Based on nothing, I’ll lump him and “My Bulma!” together. I’m actually starting to regret bothering to include Ra-geta in this, but whatever. Meaning…

Whis
Beerus
Golden Freeza
SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta
SSG Goku, SS Goku (post-SSG)
4th-Form Freeza, “My Bulma!”-Vegeta
Base Goku, Base Vegeta

Universe 6 arc

Characters to consider: Goku (Base, SS, SSB, Kaio-Ken), Vegeta (Base, SS, SSB), Champa, Vados, Botamo, Frost (forms 1~4), Magetta, Cabba (Base, SS), Hit (0.1, 0.2~0.5, further growth)…Omni-King?

This is where things get tricky. First, Champa is supposed to be weaker than Beerus, but I think we can still safely put them in the same tier. Likewise, in the manga Vados claims to be stronger than Whis, but I see no reason to split them up by an entire tier.

Goku+Hit vs Beerus+Champa
Working downwards, clearly “grown” Hit and Kaio-Ken Blue should come next. I guess the big question is if these guys are actually any weaker than Beerus+Champa. Champa certainly seems to think he can take Hit out no problem, but he might be full of hot air. Beerus seems alarmed when he learns Goku planned on using the Kaio-Ken against him, but flatly denies actually being worried. The main argument for putting Kaio-Ken Blue equal or above Beerus is simply the math, but I consider this meaningless. Admittedly it wasn’t particularly necessary for Goku to shout “Kaio-ken x10”, but it was a cool moment and I think it’s pointless getting too hung up on trying to tie together all these random numbers that get thrown out there. On the flipside, the only major reason to say KKB Goku absolutely, positively can’t be greater than Beerus or Whis is Toriyama’s recent interview where he said he currently had no plans for Goku and Vegeta to surpass them. But if we ignore that and just stick to what we see in the story, there’s no definitive proof that Beerus is vastly stronger. I think it would have been underscored more if Goku really, truly had gotten way stronger than them, though.

Also, the Kaio-Ken is one thing, since it’s a brief and risky transformation that might not technically count as “surpassing” someone, but Hit’s growth throughout the match seems permanent enough. In other words, if Hit was able to go toe-to-toe with KKB Goku, and if he retains that newfound power even after the match, then if KKB is equal or greater than Beerus, Hit should logically follow suit. And yet, as mentioned above Champa is completely confident he can destroy Hit and the rest of the U6 team members. He even specifically singles Hit’s Time-Skip skill out as something that won’t work against him.

For now, let’s just say KKB Goku and Hit in his final stage of “growth” are about on par. There’s also Hit’s fancy killing techniques that we never get to see, but these might not be enough to count as another tier. And anyway, we don’t actually see them, so we can probably ignore them for now. Below that, there’s Hit when his Time-Skip is up to 0.2 and then 0.5 seconds. He clobbers SSB Goku like this, but gets outdone by the KKB. It seems like there should be a big difference between a 0.2 and 0.5 Time-Skip, but since we only get to see both stages easily beating up on SSB Goku, I’ll just lump them together and claim they still fall within the same overall tier. I want to avoid listing eighty different versions of Hit if at all possible.

Hit vs SSB
Next there’s Hit with his initial 0.1 second Time-Skip. In this form, he beats SSB Vegeta pretty easily, but once Goku figures out how to counter his Time-Skip the tables turn. After the match, Goku even thanks the Galactic King, saying he would have been helpless against Hit if the king hadn’t explained about the Time-Skip. Now, there’s no reason to think SSB Goku and Vegeta are on different tiers. In fact, up until this point it almost seemed like Vegeta was ahead of Goku, yet Goku was able to counter 0.1 Hit whereas Vegeta got his ass handed to him. It seems pretty clear that knowledge counts for a lot when fighting Hit. It’s a bit like memorizing a boss’s attack pattern in a video game. So, in terms of raw power I’ll put SSB Goku, Vegeta, and 0.1 Hit in the same tier. Within this tier, whether or not one can beat Hit depends on getting his “pattern” down so that you can counter his Time-Skip. However, once Hit’s time skip expands too far, even this isn’t good enough, and more raw power (via the Kaio-Ken in Goku’s case) is necessary to best him.

Actually, on that note I have a sudden change of heart with 0.2 vs 0.5 Hit. In the episode, once Hit expands to 0.2 he beats up on Goku, but Goku thinks that he can start countering Hit again if he takes a few more attacks in order to get his new pattern down pat. This plan then fails because (as Hit explains) he’s still growing, at which point he reveals his 0.5 skip. So I think 0.2 Hit should still be on the same tier as 0.1, on the assumption that Goku indeed could have beaten him if his Time-Skip didn’t keep expanding. 0.5 Hit therefore is the only one up on another tier, since that’s the one Goku couldn’t keep up with. There, sorted.

Goku+Hit vs Beerus+Champa...again for some reason
With that in mind, maybe KKB Goku and “Final Hit” could be in the same overall tier as Champa and Beerus. Beating Hit depends both on having the necessary raw power and being able to counter his Time-Skip. It’s possible that Goku’s prediction skills suffered a bit while he was juggling Super Saiyan and Kaio-Ken, and so he was mostly countering Hit with raw power at that point. Champa and Beerus, on the other hand, are naturally at that level of power all the time and therefore could probably counter Hit if they knew what to do (which they presumably would, after watching Hit and Goku’s match). This could result in a sort of rock-paper-scissors scenario: KKB Goku has the power to beat up Beerus, but not enough stamina to actually finish the job, while Hit can counter KKB Goku with his fully-grown Time-Skip, but the Gods of Destruction would be able to predict his movements, enabling them to destroy Hit as easily as Champa seems to think. Overall everyone could be said to be on the same overall level, but their specific weaknesses keep Goku and Hit from truly being equal to Champa+Beerus. I wouldn’t exactly swear by this setup, but it’s something to think about.

Other losers
Enough of that though…SS Goku+Vegeta should naturally be lower than SSB Goku+Vegeta. Magetta gave SS Vegeta a pretty good fight, but the rest of the U6 team isn’t up to quite that standard. 4th-form Frost only beat SS Goku by cheating; it was clear Goku had the upper hand otherwise, and SS Vegeta takes Frost out in one punch. SS Vegeta tanks a blow to the head from SS Cabba, so it’s tempting to put them in different tiers…but then Base Vegeta and Cabba are supposed to be equal, as even said in the episode. Well…maybe Vegeta gets more mileage out of his SS transformation. “Full Power Super Saiyan” and all that jazz. Anyway, I don’t want to get too hung up multipliers and things like that.

Putting Base Goku+Vegeta+Cabba in the same tier, this should obviously be below any of their SS forms. Frost’s “Assault Form” gave base Goku a run for his money, so that should probably be a tier higher. Even in his first form he seemed to give Goku a good fight (or is that just the manga?), but we’re told both fighters are just sizing each other up. We never see Frost’s second form (except in a manga-only sketch showing Kuririn imagining it), but presumably he has such a form and presumably there should be enough space between his first and Assault Form to allow for it. So, for the heck of it I’ll say his second form would be the same tier as base Goku, while his first form is a tier below.

That just leaves Botamo. He gets beaten by Base Goku, but only through ring-out, and the entire point is that this is the only way Base Goku could have beaten him. His attack-nullifying trick is pretty handy (he’s basically a modern Buyon), and it’s unresolved how SS Goku or higher would have fared against him. Still, no matter how great his defense and stamina may be, it seems clear that his power and speed aren’t anything Base Goku can’t handle (once he’s done some warming-up exercises, anyway). It’s precisely this that allowed Base Goku to toss him out of the ring in the first place. If he’s unable to get the upper hand attack-wise against Base Goku, it’s hard to imagine him doing much against SS Goku. He’s actually the inverse of Golden Freeza in that regard: great stamina, but (relatively) low power. All in all, he’d be on a higher tier than Base Goku, but a lower one than SS Goku…which is the same category as SS Cabba and Frost’s third and fourth forms. I’ll consider Frost IV and SS Cabba as the same tier, and in order to space things out I’ll somewhat arbitrarily place Frost III and Botamo together.

For now, I’ll still place Beerus+Champa above Goku and Hit, giving us…

Vados, Whis
Beerus, Champa
Kaio-Ken Blue Goku, Final Hit
0.5 Hit
0.2 Hit, 0.1 Hit, SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta
SS Goku, SS Vegeta, Magetta
4th-form Frost, SS Cabba
3rd-form Frost, Botamo
Base Goku, Base Vegeta, Base Cabba, 2nd-form Frost
1st-form Frost

Final Combination

Alright, now I just need to combine this:

Spoiler:

Whis
Beerus
Golden Freeza
SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta
SSG Goku, SS Goku (post-SSG)
4th-Form Freeza, “My Bulma!”-Vegeta
Base Goku, Base Vegeta

…With this:

Spoiler:

Vados, Whis
Beerus, Champa
Kaio-Ken Blue Goku, Final Hit
0.5 Hit
0.2 Hit, 0.1 Hit, SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta
SS Goku, SS Vegeta, Magetta
4th-form Frost, SS Cabba
3rd-form Frost, Botamo
Base Goku, Base Vegeta, Base Cabba, 2nd-form Frost
1st-form Frost

The big question at this point is, do Goku and Vegeta go up a tier between the RF and U6 arcs? They train for over three years, so it seems like a safe bet, but before they enter the Room of Spirit and Time, Vegeta claims that they’ve actually got little room left to improve and that training won’t net them that much gain. Do we believe him? It’s true that there’s no unambiguous demonstration that the two are vastly improved afterwards, but still…It’s hard to believe they wouldn’t get a good deal better in three years. Certainly, the entire Monaka subplot was based entirely on Beerus’ assumption that motivating Goku and Vegeta to train hard for the tournament was worthwhile.

With that in mind, I have to put them up there with Golden Freeza now. It would be natural to follow suit and bump their base and SS forms up a tier too…in which case, if Cabba is equal to U6 Base Vegeta, it would mean he’s a tier higher than RF Base Vegeta. Which isn’t inherently problematic, but seems weird somehow. Screw it, I’ll say they mainly improve their SSB form, so those go up a tier, but their base and SS forms stay in the same tier. Proof: none whatsoever, but I kind of want to wrap this up, and juggling two sets of base and SS forms seems like a pain.

So again, as far as I’m concerned SSG Goku, BoG arc SS Goku after absorbing SSG’s power, RF arc SS Goku, and U6 arc SS Goku are all in the same tier. Which means Magetta’s on par with them, but whatever. Now then, where does 4th-form Freeza fit in? Higher than Base Goku (or so I said), but lower than SS Goku. It’s tempting to put him and 4th-form Frost together, but 3rd-form Frost seemed to give Base Goku at least as much trouble 4th-form Freeza, so I think Frost might come out ahead if they’re in the same form. Well, it hardly matters in the grand scheme of things. “My Bulma!”-Vegeta (who I really regret including now) goes along with 4th-form Freeza (arbitrarily), leaving 1st-form Frost all by himself at the bottom. Frankly, Ra-geta could be placed anywhere below Beerus for as much difference as it would make.

*flips coin* Still going with Beerus+Champa above Goku+Hit. Now then…

Vados, Whis
Beerus, Champa
Kaio-Ken Blue Goku, Final Hit
0.5 Hit
0.2 Hit, 0.1 Hit, SSB Goku (U6), SSB Vegeta (U6), Golden Freeza
SSB Goku (RF), SSB Vegeta (RF)
SSG Goku, SS Goku, SS Vegeta, Magetta
4th-form Frost, SS Cabba
3rd-form Frost, Botamo, 4th-Form Freeza, “My Bulma!”-Vegeta
Base Goku, Base Vegeta, Base Cabba, 2nd-form Frost
1st-form Frost

Omni-King could probably take all these clowns, but I guess we still don’t *really* have enough info on him to say for sure.

[namekiansaiyan]

Are you seriously saying that Piccolo is not even on that list, if that is the case then that power level list has no credibility.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The one thing that implies Beers is still well ahead of Goku is Monaka, or rather the idea of Monaka. Goku believes the team will be fine because Monaka is the strongest on the team. All Goku knows is that he's the most powerful guy Beers has fought, with no indication that he was ever above Beers. Had Goku surpassed Beers, I doubt he'd continue to hold him in such high regard. I agree with most of the tiers, though I can't see Base Goku and Vegeta being below Rageta. I'd like to think the training with Whis would at least put them well above that.

As for the improvement in the rosat, I'd say it's mostly up to opinion. What we know is Vegeta said he could feel his growth after sparring with Goku, which made him even more excited to fight the U6 team. That tells me the two were able to make nice gains there.

[Barunks]

Personally for the tournament arc I'd put Goku/Vegeta's base forms as the same as they always were throughout Z, intentionally neglecting to use their more "mystic" style variants of their base forms and just going regular SS/SS2 as a visual que to their opponents that they are a force to be reckoned with while still not having to go all out. That and they look cool as super saiyans in their new costumes and I would totally buy that merchandise.

[PMD]

Who's Rageta?

[Cetra]

Who's Rageta?

Raging Vegeta

[PMD]

Who's Rageta?

Raging Vegeta

Oh, cool, thanks.

[HeroR]

Base forms Goku and Vegeta are clearly stronger than final form Freeza. Freeza only manages to hit Goku because he kept attacking his friends and even then he was doing no critical damage.

Other than that, I agree with the list. Piccolo only did so well against Frost because Goku beat the crap out of Frost to the point that he could barely move and he purpose held back against Piccolo, something Piccolo himself reprimanded Frost on. There is also no evident at all of this two base theory that some seems to cling to. Saiyan Beyond God is just a title so people know this is post-BOG Goku so his base form is freakishly powerful.

[ssbgoku]

Vados, Whis
Beerus, Champa
Kaio-Ken Blue Goku, Final Hit
0.5 Hit
0.2 Hit, 0.1 Hit, SSB Goku (U6), SSB Vegeta (U6), Golden Freeza
SSB Goku (RF), SSB Vegeta (RF)
SSG Goku, SS Goku, SS Vegeta, Magetta
4th-form Frost, SS Cabba
3rd-form Frost, Botamo, 4th-Form Freeza, “My Bulma!”-Vegeta
Base Goku, Base Vegeta, Base Cabba, 2nd-form Frost
1st-form Frost

Omni-King could probably take all these clowns, but I guess we still don’t *really* have enough info on him to say for sure.

Wow, Herms I am pretty impressed by your incredible great and thought out opinion with include of every or close to every aspect of dragon ball super. Great analyse indeed. However I disagree with you at some points, so here goes mine:

Vados, Whis
Beerus, Champa
Kaio-ken x10 Blue Goku
Kaio-Ken x4 Blue Goku, Final Hit
0.5 Hit, 0.2 Hit, 0.1 Hit, SSB Goku (U6), SSB Vegeta (U6), Golden Freeza
SSB Goku (RF), SSB Vegeta (RF)
SSG Goku, SS Goku, SS Vegeta, Magetta
4th-form Frost, SS Cabba
“My Bulma!”-Vegeta
4th-Form Freeza, Base Goku, Base Vegeta,
3rd-form Frost, Base Cabba
2nd-form Frost, Botamo
1st-form Frost

Explanation: First I believes goku didn't keep his kaioken times 10 active through whole battle with hit but rather only for one punch and then unleashing powerfull kamehameha which hit escaped and then even dodged goku's punch. Later I believe goku was only kaioken times 2 against hit. I know it may sound ridiculous and unluckily but even against freeza at namek we didn't see any remark of goku using kaioken times 10 until he was shown already using it, which means it is possible for goku to goes up or down with kaioken multipliers. Maggeta is hard and tough to be placed or compared but I agree that he is less or more at this level. About Frost, I have never seen base goku serious against assault form frost, it was even better shown in the manga. Goku wasn't even scratched while frost seemed to put some trouble in it.

[namekiansaiyan]

Base forms Goku and Vegeta are clearly stronger than final form Freeza. Freeza only manages to hit Goku because he kept attacking his friends and even then he was doing no critical damage.

Other than that, I agree with the list. Piccolo only did so well against Frost because Goku beat the crap out of Frost to the point that he could barely move and he purpose held back against Piccolo, something Piccolo himself reprimanded Frost on. There is also no evident at all of this two base theory that some seems to cling to. Saiyan Beyond God is just a title so people know this is post-BOG Goku so his base form is freakishly powerful.

If Frost was so tired why did Vegeta go Super Saiyan. If anyone thinks Piccolo is not at least as strong as first form Frost then they are just not watching the anime or reading the manga.

[Marlowe89]

Grouping the U6 fighters is a bit tricky but here's my overall list:

Omni-King
Vados, Whis
Beerus, Champa
Kaioken SSB Goku, Final Hit
0.5 Hit
0.1-0.2 Hit, SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, Golden Freeza
SSG Goku
SS Goku, SS Vegeta, SS Cabba, Final Form Frost, Magetta
Base Goku, Base Vegeta, BOG Arc Rageta, Base Cabba, Final Form Freeza, 3rd Form Frost, Botamo
1st Form Frost, Piccolo

[ZombieVito]

Omni-King
Omni-King attendants?
Vados
Whis
Beerus
Champa
Goku [Super Saiyan Blue + Kaiokenx10]
Hit [Further improved Time-Skip]
Hit [0.5 Second Time-Skip]
Hit [0.2 Seconf Time-Skip]
Goku/Vegeta [Super Saiyan Blue]
Hit
Goku/Vegeta/Cabba [Super Saiyan]
Auta Magetta
Frost [Final form]
Majin Boo
Goku/Vegeta/Cabba
Frost [Assault form]
Piccolo
Gohan
Frost
Botamo
Jaco
Burp Man
Monaka

[Noah]

So not only are the Gods of Destruction on another tier, but so is the Omni-King.

Goku and Vegeta have a very long-way to go.

Given that Toriayma said Goku aint surpassing Beerus anytime soon, I wonder if Goku will ever get even close to Omni King. Probably not

He won't ever get close to Omni King.

I think that is right, I mean... We don't expect a living being to surpass the creator of all the multiverse, I know Goku is best know to overcome challenges but that's too much for him, I think he will surpass Whis and Vados and no more than that.

But as a matter of fact, Bullza pointed, don't you guys think it was too soon to introduce a character with such power already? I mean if we had problems before in having an Arc with a villain that nor Beerus/Whis or Champa/Vados could stop, what about a villain that neither the creator could stop? That doesn't seem possible or maybe Zeno is a guy that gives free will to everything and don't like to interfere, I don't know... Will we have an arc with real tension/danger to a multiverse scale?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Beerus alone is strong enough to destroy the 7th Universe on his own, and if he was to fight with Champa, both 6th & 7th Universes would be destroyed. So, Zenno should be at least 12 times stronger than Beerus & Champa.

All Goku needs is a new transformation (Super Saiyan White?) with a huge multiplier to surpass them all. Even if that isn't enough for him to surpass Zenno, Vegetto could still surpass him.

Personally, I don't see Super ending with Goku being below #1 in the ranks. When he goes to train Oob, he is #1 in the 12 Universes.

[Doctor.]

Beerus alone is strong enough to destroy the 7th Universe on his own, and if he was to fight with Champa, both 6th & 7th Universes would be destroyed. So, Zenno should be at least 12 times stronger than Beerus & Champa.

All Goku needs is a new transformation (Super Saiyan White?) with a huge multiplier to surpass them all. Even if that isn't enough for him to surpass Zenno, Vegetto could still surpass him.

Personally, I don't see Super ending with Goku being below #1 in the ranks. When he goes to train Oob, he is #1 in the 12 Universes.

That's really far-fetched to think about. Dragon Ball's main theme is "there's always someone better".