Anyone interested in discussing the social issues of DB?

[successoroffate]

Please, don't turn this into DragonBallGate

[VegettoEX]

Please, don't turn this into DragonBallGate

These kinds of pointless comments are, well, pointless. Don't make them. If it's not a conversation you're interested in, don't contribute.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I don't think there's any way for it to look genuine when we consider the statistics: http://www.economist.com/blogs/prospero ... m-and-race. If anything, it should be the latinos complaining. And honestly, why should people be checking these kind of statistics anyway? The awards should go to whoever deserves it, regardless of race.

I don't like when vague stats used to just show who participates in what, because they don't actually expand any context to how resources are distributed and where they are used. If one stats says Latinos are the most movie watchers, but another says blacks are the most TV watchers, while Asians are the most successful on youtube, what difference is there in the issue? There shouldn't be this idea of who has it worse, things can only be addressed as they affect certain groups specifically in specific contexts. The awards should never have been the main focus of the subject matter of representation, because it undermines the focus of a wider critical thought.

Not anything to do with the present conversation, but some of the earlier posts gave me a thought: I don't see anything inherently wrong with stereotypes in media. They are not intrinsically incompatible with an egalitarian society. I think it would be totally fine to put in even the most egregious stereotypes, so long as they were sufficiently balanced out by non-stereotypical portrayals. Stereotypes are a legitimately enjoyable form of humor, and it would be a shame to see them go away. However, they must be used more sparingly, as massive media franchises are indeed very reflective of the general culture, which then comes to reflect them.

Well yeah. Stereotypes themselves aren't or shouldn't be a problem for the sake of a gag because to intelligent people, they should just be that and not reflect the entirety of a group. They only unfortunately do to groups we view foreign to ourselves, and stereotypes in other groups we do not like in our own values are often what creates these definitions of these groups caricatured by the emphasize on negative reinforcement. In short, stereotypes aren't an issue unless they skew a character just within them as the only thing we accept about a label. The character can still have competence in other areas that we should find relatable in order to deemphasize stereotypes as a "truth" just because those they skew are foreign to us.

[rereboy]

I don't like when vague stats used to just show who participates in what

These statistics are not vague at all, imo. Will Smith protested agaisnt the current underepresentation of afro-americans in the movie industry. The statistics show that in number of oscars wins, oscar nominations, number of sag actors, lead roles and number of roles, at least recently, the percentage has been close in line to the percentage in total population. It's actually pretty extensive. Does that mean that all problems regarding these issues are solved? Of course not, but it really makes will smith's protest look like a tantrum than an actual protest.

[gogeta97]

I don't like when vague stats used to just show who participates in what

These statistics are not vague at all, imo. Will Smith protested agaisnt the current underepresentation of afro-americans in the movie industry. The statistics show that in number of oscars wins, oscar nominations, number of sag actors, lead roles and number of roles, at least recently, the percentage has been close in line to the percentage in total population. It's actually pretty extensive. Does that mean that all problems regarding these issues are solved? Of course not, but it really makes will smith's protest look like a tantrum than an actual protest.

Yeah people still complain about tokenism particularly among black actors but honestly I think that we've reached a point where they genuinely have many good representations in media and are only getting better. If anything, I find it rather insulting that some people will like at so many black actors/actresses that deliver excellent performances and just chalk them up to being useless "tokens". Other minorities have a bit of a way to come(from what I've seen Asians are severely underrepresented) but can only go up from here.

[precita]

I'm surprised nobody brought up that Kibito looks like a racist red-faced Native American.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

I'm surprised nobody brought up that Kibito looks like a racist red-faced Native American.

There are naitive american depictions in dragonball, and its not kibito.

[Snow_Lilies]

Dude, I like Pan in GT as well. Even though it's kind of BS she doesn't get Super Saiyan (at least within the series) and Toei hands her that one really stupid "Girls get stronger when they cry" moment. Which, ugh.

Goku's first big transformation on Namek was sort of the result of a large burst of emotions. Anger/Rage tend to be the most cited catalysts for the Super Saiyan transformation, but I always tended to recognize the emotional anguish and heartache involved that contributed to the power-up. People deal with that kind of pain in different ways, some shedding tears, some crying out in anger. I would argue that power-ups granted through intense emotional strife are an integral theme in the series and transcend this particular gender trope.

[Cipher]

Goku's first big transformation on Namek was sort of the result of a large burst of emotions. Anger/Rage tend to be the most cited catalysts for the Super Saiyan transformation, but I always tended to recognize the emotional anguish and heartache involved that contributed to the power-up. People deal with that kind of pain in different ways, some shedding tears, some crying out in anger. I would argue that power-ups granted through intense emotional strife are an integral theme in the series and transcend this particular gender trope.

No, I'm totally down with that, but she literally says, "Didn't you know? Girls get stronger when they cry."

Like, that's in the script.

[floofychan333]

I really don't think we can accurately assessment the social "problems" of Dragon Ball, seeing as for most of us there's not only the time barrier to break but also the culture barrier. This isn't just analyzing Looney Tunes where it's American culture in the 30s, 40s, and 50s but Japanese culture in the 80's and 90s.

We can establish our cultural response, though. In addition, the things pointed out in these discussions aren't culturally specific so much as they're broad rights-and-representation issues. They're not really politically nuanced.

That doesn't mean anyone's attacking the author--we get why we're there, because of the time and culture. And sure; they're pretty tame compared to anything you'd find in Looney Toons, which could sometimes be fairly malicious. But, you know, they're still there.

Besides, within the Dragon Ball universe, it appears like there's equality for all anyways (they even gave a dog as their leader. If that's not accepting, then I don't know what is).

This argument crops up a lot, but it's neither here nor there when it comes to how it portrays real-world social dynamics?

No one thinks Toriyama is a bigot of any kind. I think he must have a fairly harmonious view of the world. That does not mean he gracefully handled racial or sexual issues in his manga--he definitely indulged in some of the more harmful views of his time, albeit through ignorant reflection rather than malice.

Even then, in certain regards, he's better than many of his peers. But we're on a Dragon Ball forum. so discuss and dissect Dragon Ball we will.

It's the anime filler that negatively portrays women and gays, not Toriyama. Thank you Cipher.

[MCDaveG]

They are hardcore nationalists in heart and don't accept anyone. So there is no problem with people with darker skin tones in Japan only, but with Chinese, Koreans, Europeans etc. You can't also apply what you see in anime to the real world, as anime is minor part of the culture and isn't pursued by general population that much, as it is with children. You can ask my friend, who went to Japan for a year and Japanese were making fun of him behind his back, because they didn't know he was fluent.

Well thats an interesting insight I didn't know was factored. Thats probably the most common thing in all Eastern countries or Eastern communities you will be exposed to. Then again, there is also racism there as well because of the positive bias they have on the image of blonde-hair. You are still a foreigner there they might not see as equal to them, but I don't think you would be treated as bad as you would be if you just had dark-skinned as a foreigner. How racism works in the East is very complicated, more so than I assumed. Its actually more cut-and-dry in the West because people make it clear and personal with you. They don't hide it behind a fake public-face, but rather just abrasively deny it existing to make you look delusional.

I think that the opposite extreme isn't good either, like Will Smith and Oscars. That man lost all my respect that day. I really hate this opportunistic ''I don't have this only because I am black, blue, green, yellow!'' Not these opportunistic a-holes with bunch of rich kids fighting for the peace on the planet behind their back.

Addressing racism in hollywood is very complicated, because that is where the economic segregation is. Its not untrue that there are far less opportunities let alone casting calls for PoC in media in general, outside of the token quota-guy. The only reason why it didn't look genuine on Jada Smith's report of it, was because Will is one of the most circulated Black actors already in Hollywood outside the token box and at best a measly award is often just a consolation novelty after that. Even when these prejudices are averted with latent positive reception in contrary to them, they're usually just taken as flukes as opposed to evidence. Then, movies breaking that mold would be held up to a higher expectation that can be followed with a higher consequence, if it fails while trying to propose alternatives using the lead as an excuse and not just bad writing or direction. Like with the New Ghost Busters film. It looks terrible because of horrible characterization and unfunny jokes, not because the casts are all women.

Good points, I think that I agree with you. Thanks

[Kamiccolo9]

I really don't think we can accurately assessment the social "problems" of Dragon Ball, seeing as for most of us there's not only the time barrier to break but also the culture barrier. This isn't just analyzing Looney Tunes where it's American culture in the 30s, 40s, and 50s but Japanese culture in the 80's and 90s.

We can establish our cultural response, though. In addition, the things pointed out in these discussions aren't culturally specific so much as they're broad rights-and-representation issues. They're not really politically nuanced.

That doesn't mean anyone's attacking the author--we get why we're there, because of the time and culture. And sure; they're pretty tame compared to anything you'd find in Looney Toons, which could sometimes be fairly malicious. But, you know, they're still there.

Besides, within the Dragon Ball universe, it appears like there's equality for all anyways (they even gave a dog as their leader. If that's not accepting, then I don't know what is).

This argument crops up a lot, but it's neither here nor there when it comes to how it portrays real-world social dynamics?

No one thinks Toriyama is a bigot of any kind. I think he must have a fairly harmonious view of the world. That does not mean he gracefully handled racial or sexual issues in his manga--he definitely indulged in some of the more harmful views of his time, albeit through ignorant reflection rather than malice.

Even then, in certain regards, he's better than many of his peers. But we're on a Dragon Ball forum. so discuss and dissect Dragon Ball we will.

It's the anime filler that negatively portrays women and gays, not Toriyama. Thank you Cipher.

I'm not sure how you got that impression from his post. Blue and Otosuki are both in the manga.

[MCDaveG]

I would suggest reading one of those interviews with Toriyama, who is the classic Japanese husband.
His wife was manga artist, but when they married, she quit everything and became full time housewife...
I knew one guy, who married a Japanese woman, and cheated on her and wanted a divorce. But she won't go with the divorce, as it will be her failure as a wife.

So, I think that Toriyama may have the same view on women that someone here says he doesn't. I think that Toriyama, not being much traditional Japanese in his work manners that much like other,
is a 100 % japanese in all other matters.

[precita]

Isn't Chi Chi based on an Asian Tiger Mom?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_mother

[DBZAOTA482]

Isn't Chi Chi based on an Asian Tiger Mom?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger_mother

No (didn't exist at the time), but Muten Roshi did joke about her becoming an education-minded (kyoiku mama) which really showed in the anime. The screenwriter for the old Z movies even said they purposely exaggerated her education mama traits.

Kai Chi-Chi and possibly Super Chi-Chi could be based on the Tiger Mom stereotype.

[Polyphase Avatron]

General Blue wasn't portrayed negatively as a gay... in fact, he was the only RRA soldier who was a threat to Goku and Krillin.

Pan would be fine as long as she doesn't end up like she did in GT (annoying and useless).

Even so, annoying and useless is not enough to make a character sexist. There are, after all, annoying and useless women (and men of course) in real life. I think its fine to include the occasional weak willed character of either gender as long as it's a personal flaw and not generalized to the entire sex. (or race)

True but she was a damsel in distress, bitchy, selfish, and ridiculously incompetent for no distinct reason other than being female.... which makes her a pretty sexist character.

I don't think Toriyama is sexist but Toei sure is if they're portrayal of Bulma on Namek or Chi-Chi's portrayal in most of the movies and a lot of the anime filler is anything to go by.

Is that sexism though, or Flanderization?

[Polyphase Avatron]

As much as I love Dragon Ball, I really hate that it's sexist, racist, and homophobic. What I hate even more is that whenever somebody tries to bring this up they get berated for being "Stupid."

And what happens when someone says anything you SJW's don't like ?

In terms of the topic, Toriyama is just writing the story he wants which shouldn't bother you people because you're all about freedom of speech right ?

You aren't going to improve Dragon Ball via posts on an internet forum.

Or by forcing political correctness into it but thankfully Toriyama only listens to Toriyama so that's not going to happen.

Which should be OK because that's what SJW's want, freedom of speech for everyone right ? A certain batgirl artist knows all about that "freedom of speech" they talk about.

Freedom of speech doesn't mean no one has the right to criticize you for anything you do. People are free to write/draw what they want, and others are free to criticize them for it.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I find it strange that the response of so many is "I don't think we should be talking about that."

Interesting that so many who rail against censorship of a cartoon get uncomfortable when this kind of conversation comes up.

Because it's going much beyond what is actually there. It's like seeing an humorist bringing up a stereotype of a person of another country on a joke and starting a serious debate about the humorist being against foreigners or not in response. If I saw that type of response over that situation, I also would get pretty uncomfortable over the lack of sense of humor and excess of PC (political correctness).

I also don't see what censorship has to do with it. Those who oppose censorship usually do so because they want the original preserved as a matter of principle and because they aren't willing to let PC interfere with that principle. Meanwhile, those who don't see the point in debating about these issues regarding Dragon Ball usually don't see the point in that because such a topic is something that goes way beyond what is actually there in Dragon Ball that at most uses stereotypes and the notion of those ideas for lighthearted humor, and they also aren't willing to let PC interfere with that. If anything, they are coherent because both aren't willing to let PC interfere too much in these matters.

There are jokes that go beyond the boundaries of good taste. If a comedian was making jokes about how stupid black people are, or how greedy Jews are, would you complain about people objecting to it by calling them "too PC"?

As for censorship, no one is advocating destroying all of the original manga/anime and replacing it with some whitewashed version. Just addressing the stereotypes and such that exist in it.

[Polyphase Avatron]

Well, for the sake of argument..wouldn't Namekians be enough to meet your definition of a LGBT Character properly portrayed?

More like asexual...

[Polyphase Avatron]

Android 18 was a central and serious antagonist. Videl is a (relatively) great fighter and the only human in Dragonball besides the Tournament Announcer to see through the Z fighters (albiet very thin) ruse.

Dragon Ball is a series market to young boys in Japan. The male characters are always going to have a bigger role than the female characters. Look at a series like Kamen Rider and Super Sentai, it's the same too. The male characters have a bigger role than the female ones because the show is made for younger boys.

Eh, Super Sentai is pretty good about representing women, every team has female members and they can all fight, and while some of them could be said to be just tokenism a lot of them are just as important as the guys. In Shinkenger the red team leader even was just holding the place for a female who took over as team leader partway through.