Do we expect too much from Super?

[Lord Beerus]

Story can be overlooked if the animation is good.

I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with that ideal at all. It just seem too superficial. I don't care if your show has great animation. If I can't get any kind of enjoyment out of the story, narrative, characters etc, then that show has failed in my opinion. It just like saying a game is good, or even great, by default because it has stunning graphics.

[Hellspawn28]

I totally agree with Lord Beerus. Pretty effects or good animation can't save every thing. Look at Cars 2, it's a movie with great animation but a terrible story. It was Pixar's first critically flop. Even movies like 2012, San Andreas and Transformers have great special effects to look at, but the acting and writing is god awful.

[Saturnine]

You would think TOEI would learn their lesson after GT ended with only 64 episodes...and they couldn't mess up their one and only shot at the first new Dragonball series in 18 years...and yet they did.

Its baffling, really. I feel if Super ends sooner rather than later, Dragonball will be done again for at least another decade.

Strangely enough, GT had actually good animation. The character designs were horrid, but the action sequences themselves were crafted with care. It's the writers' complete ignorance towards the universe established by Toriyama and constant patting themselves on the backs with all those stupid Z filler and theatrical movie references that sank GT IMO.

Even though its production values are low, Super has a better story by far. Also it doesn' make GT's silly mistake of completely eschewing the side chars in favor of Goku. In GT Yamcha and Tien had like one or two silent cameos and that's it - in Super they've been the background chars way more and Tien was even given a battle. Much? Not really, but compared to GT it's like heaven and earth.

[Patrolman Jaco]

Nope, rehashing two movie story lines so soon after they just released and instead of improving them it removed most of their good qualities, padded them to hell and back and all around just made them significantly worse. The new content by Toriyama is pretty good, but its undermined by Toei's abysmal animation and a sub par OST. Yeah, I know bad scheduling and too much of a strain on the production staff, but Toei still chose to make the anime in spite of that instead of sticking to movies.

Also the fillers are shit with a few exceptional moments here and there, they are so many cool ideas for filler that Toriyama mentions in various interviews and media such as in DBO where Krillin and Tien Shinhan reestablish the Turtle and Crane Schools, the origin of Mark's (Mr Satan) stage name and his run in with Tao Pai Pai, how Lapis (Android 17) is doing at his park ranger job or animating Jaco's manga thus giving him a proper introduction to the series. Nah screw that dedicate the first episodes of DBS to stupid crap like Trunks and Goten quest for water or Vegeta being a stick in the mud at a family outing.

This could have been a great series, but all it amounted to is a cheap cash grab.

[Kuririn Fan]

Nope, rehashing two movie story lines so soon after they just released and instead of improving them it removed most of their good qualities, padded them to hell and back and all around just made them significantly worse. The new content by Toriyama is pretty good, but its undermined by Toei's abysmal animation and a sub par OST. Yeah, I know bad scheduling and too much of a strain on the production staff, but Toei still chose to make the anime in spite of that instead of sticking to movies.

Also the fillers are shit with a few exceptional moments here and there, they are so many cool ideas for filler that Toriyama mentions in various interviews and media such as in DBO where Krillin and Tien Shinhan reestablish the Turtle and Crane Schools, the origin of Mark's (Mr Satan) stage name and his run in with Tao Pai Pai, how Lapis (Android 17) is doing at his park ranger job or animating Jaco's manga thus giving him a proper introduction to the series. Nah screw that dedicate the first episodes of DBS to stupid crap like Trunks and Goten quest for water or Vegeta being a stick in the mud at a family outing.

This could have been a great series, but all it amounted to is a cheap cash grab.

You nailed it, man.

[SansrivaaL]

I for one expected too much, Super as a whole is pretty dumb because they rehashed the 1st parts with movies that were done with leaving us with no new content until now that is.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Story can be overlooked if the animation is good.

I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with that ideal at all. It just seem too superficial. I don't care if your show has great animation. If I can't get any kind of enjoyment out of the story, narrative, characters etc, then that show has failed in my opinion. It just like saying a game is good, or even great, by default because it has stunning graphics.

What I said was more specifically for DB, not any anime. Based on the way the series is written, it either has to fill at least 1 of either 2 expectations: Fights or Character depth. We're already familiar with the series and characters to the point where they don't need to buy our interest by a deep story if it isn't applied. I mean from Super's worst faults all of the more morally complex characters were just thrown away right after they show any sign of development at all. If the story is going to rushed, then they have to compensate the entertainment lost in it with a fight set up that at least justifies the skim over character sub-plots. Super has done neither.

Also the fillers are shit with a few exceptional moments here and there, they are so many cool ideas for filler that Toriyama mentions in various interviews and media such as in DBO where Krillin and Tien Shinhan reestablish the Turtle and Crane Schools, the origin of Mark's (Mr Satan) stage name and his run in with Tao Pai Pai, how Lapis (Android 17) is doing at his park ranger job or animating Jaco's manga thus giving him a proper introduction to the series. Nah screw that dedicate the first episodes of DBS to stupid crap like Trunks and Goten quest for water or Vegeta being a stick in the mud at a family outing.
This could have been a great series, but all it amounted to is a cheap cash grab.

Agreed, it was written just to capitalize on the popularity DB had again and exploit the people that will watch it for nostalgia and not for actual intrigue. The Filler in Super has been the worst in the franchise next to Saiyan Saga filler, Super couldn't have had any other episodes that wasted so much of our time. Then lazily retelling the movies with nothing new to the plot, only for them to not even connect in relevance with U6 arc has probably been the worst cash grab I've ever seen.

[Hellspawn28]

Story can be overlooked if the animation is good.

I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with that ideal at all. It just seem too superficial. I don't care if your show has great animation. If I can't get any kind of enjoyment out of the story, narrative, characters etc, then that show has failed in my opinion. It just like saying a game is good, or even great, by default because it has stunning graphics.

What I said was more specifically for DB, not any anime. Based on the way the series is written, it either has to fill at least 1 of either 2 expectations: Fights or Character depth.

Writing comes first before anything. Pretty special effects won't save something from having a bad story. I mean I thought Lord Slug was decently animated, but the story was trash in my opinion.

[PsionicWarrior]

Hi, I'm new to this forum.

What I was expecting for Super was

- Better drawing and animations than Z
- New stuff good storyline and the series charm

I felt let down yet still manage to enjoy the episodes, it seems to become better lately, even if still sub-par to what the franchise deserves IMO. Really curious about upcoming episodes, I think there is a chance to go crazy story-wise let's hope they don't mess it up, I hope upcoming episodes will feel less rushed with more love and effort put into animations.

[DBZAOTA482]

Well I expected good fight scenes, decent art/animation, some thought-provoking character development, and simple yet effective story. Super almost never provides any of that.

[Sonicjamareiz]

I would like a good story for once we haven't had a good story since the Namek saga. I don't care for the music or watery animation because I'm not a weeb.

[Kuririn Fan]

I would like a good story for once we haven't had a good story since the Namek saga. I don't care for the music or watery animation because I'm not a weeb.

That's just awesome, man, and makes sense.

[namekiansaiyan]

What I want is:
good fights
good interaction between the characters
use the whole cast
limit the fan service
No crap, in other words nothing like Piccolo forfeiting for no reason.

[TheDBZmaster100]

Expecting too much from A.T was a mistake in the first place, especially after Minus and ROF. The BOG movie itself was unneeded aswell.

Super is an extremely flawed series both in its plot and it's characters who are poorly utilised and ridiculously flanderised. The artificial, forced tension doesn't help as well.
There is no saving grace in this nonsense know as 'Dragon Ball Super ', should have never existed in the first place.

Story can be overlooked if the animation is good.

That's a worrying opinion to have to be honest.
You mean the other way around, a series can be saved if it has an interesting premise/plot/story/intriguing, complex characters/explores some theme with poor production values (ala Shinsekai Yori, in this case it had dull characters but some good theme exploration/interesting premise).

DBS lacks interesting characters (Beerus and Whis themselves cannot save this show), poor production values, the plot is nonsensical and the fighting is piss poor with poor choreography and lack wits/implementation of strategy.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Story can be overlooked if the animation is good.

I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with that ideal at all. It just seem too superficial. I don't care if your show has great animation. If I can't get any kind of enjoyment out of the story, narrative, characters etc, then that show has failed in my opinion. It just like saying a game is good, or even great, by default because it has stunning graphics.

I think I should have elabourated. I meant, I can overlook the depth of an arc, if the basics of it's story is presented well enough to keep the focus on that. Like how the movies were. I don't hate them because they don't make sense to the main timeline, but they were at least examples of the series at it's best visually for most of them which is enough to be meh, but they aren't cringe worthy to me because the fight choreography was still on point for the series. I can go back and just watch the fights, because the story doesn't matter for them. However, with Super being an intentional continuation of the series, it having no plot thus far or a really dumb premise for most of the arcs, its hard to just tolerate that fault, because is presentation of the fights were so poorly done that it was no better than the quality of the storyline itself. As of now though, as we are midway into Super, it's plot is so numbingly lacking coherency and actual tension that, its hard to watch scenes for what they are if I know they aren't even going anywhere, and with how poor quality Super's unimpressive animation is, that doesn't make up for having to turn your brain off for the fights.

[PsionicWarrior]

There is no saving grace in this nonsense know as 'Dragon Ball Super ', should have never existed in the first place.

Well in absolute is never too late to redeem, with new arc there is chance to come up with new plot introducing new characters and better fight scenes, but maybe I am too naive.

You mean the other way around, a series can be saved if it has an interesting premise/plot/story/intriguing.

Story/Universe = 50%, Animation/Fighting scenes = 50%. IMHO

DBS lacks interesting characters (Beerus and Whis themselves cannot save this show), poor production values, the plot is nonsensical and the fighting is piss poor with poor choreography and lack wits/implementation of strategy.

Sadly true, but the fight between Goku and Hit was a good surprise, much better than the average we saw in DBS insofar, less sloppy with no repetitions seems like too much to ask though...

[Shinsa]

Expecting too much from A.T was a mistake in the first place, especially after Minus and ROF. The BOG movie itself was unneeded aswell.

Super is an extremely flawed series both in its plot and it's characters who are poorly utilised and ridiculously flanderised. The artificial, forced tension doesn't help as well.
There is no saving grace in this nonsense know as 'Dragon Ball Super ', should have never existed in the first place.

Story can be overlooked if the animation is good.

That's a worrying opinion to have to be honest.
You mean the other way around, a series can be saved if it has an interesting premise/plot/story/intriguing, complex characters/explores some theme with poor production values (ala Shinsekai Yori, in this case it had dull characters but some good theme exploration/interesting premise).

DBS lacks interesting characters (Beerus and Whis themselves cannot save this show), poor production values, the plot is nonsensical and the fighting is piss poor with poor choreography and lack wits/implementation of strategy.

100% this!

You sir are correct on so many levels its quite sad just how bad the show is.

[DragonHermit]

I think if the Buu saga aired this year, apart from Vegeta/Goku skirmish it would have been bashed even more than Super. What I find interesting is that most of the things people have been complaining about Super existed in DBZ as well:

- Inconsistent animation

- Giant plot Holes

- Messed up power scaling

Characters are a subjective opinion, but was Buu for example more interesting than Hit, Champa, Vados, Cabba?

The major difference between the two series is that DBZ had a long term plot plan, whether Super is just cut and paste after every 12 episodes. But I can personally ignore the first 25 episodes since it's just movie retelling.

[Faisal Shourov]

Yes we did, Super is a massive disappointment so far. It doesn't have anything memorable and basically a failure. I am not bashing, just compare Super to masterpiece like Hunter x Hunter or Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood. Super is on the same level as Yokai Watch or Yugioh, for little kids.

However there's no excuse for the awful art and animation, it's cringeworthy.

[Overlord78]

Yes we did, Super is a massive disappointment so far. It doesn't have anything memorable and basically a failure. I am not bashing, just compare Super to masterpiece like Hunter x Hunter or Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood. Super is on the same level as Yokai Watch or Yugioh, for little kids.

However there's no excuse for the awful art and animation, it's cringeworthy.

I wouldn't even compare Dragon Ball as a whole to Hunter x Hunter since it's considered one of the best shonen series. Dragon Ball as a series dropped in quality after Namek (the Cell arc especially was not that great).

As for Super it's not terrible but it's not very good either. Overall I would probably rate it 5.5 out of 10 and it would probably be above GT in my opnion (although I think ROF was one of the worst things this franchise has produced).

Did people expect too much from this series? Definitely you just have to look at the products that came after DBZ e.g. GT, DB Minus, ROF movie and now Super. The only product I can actually say was really good was the BOG movie but I accepted the fact that we are not going to get something of quality like the Saiyan Saga again which is where the series peaked for me.

People are disappointed that their expectations and the hype the series had were not met. I never really held any high expectations for this series so I'm not as disappointed. Super has had it's fair share of some good moments but overall it's been mediocre.