EOB or DB MINUS? Which hurt Gokuu's character more?

[Saikyo no Senshi]

In EOB, Bardock is the Super Saiyan of legend and this undermines Gokuu's character.Gokuu said to Vegeta with hardwork a low level can surpass an elite but this is thrown out of the window. If we go by EOB Gokuu always was supposed to be strong because it was in his blood. He wasn't a low class scum who achieved everything because of his hardwork and determination.This hurts some of the vital aspects of his character.
Now DB Minus the irony of Son Gokuu character is that he was sent to Earth to destroy it but he ended up being its protector but Minus shits on this completely Gokuu's story is almost similar to Superman's.The irony is gone.
So,what do you guys think? IMO both hurt Gokuu's character immensely.

- Travis

[sintzu]

Not only did they both hurt Goku's character but Bardock's original story as well.

There are things that are best left alone and Bardock's story was one of them.

EOB wanted to show us how Freeza found out about the Ssj but I think they should've went with an original new character instead of having it be Bardock.

Minus wanted to introduce Goku's mother but I think it should've been a TV special set before the events of Bardock's original special instead of being it's own thing that steps over it and rewrites Goku's origin.

I get that he's the original author but not only did he rewrite what the majority of fans loved and considered canon, he made a worse version of it so why he decided to do that is beyond me.

[successoroffate]

Is there a slight chance for EOB to be just a part of Bardock's subconscious after he died?

[TheMikado]

Not only did they both hurt Goku's character but Bardock's original story as well.

There are things that are best left alone and Bardock's story was one of them.

They were both horrid and I wish I could ignore them in discussions, but there is this overarching opinion that everything Toriyama makes should be canon so... ugh, just ugh. Like its amazing that the newer stuff is actually starting to make me retroactively somewhat dislike the series.
Like too how too much exposure of the new Ninja Turtles starts cloud your vision of the older content.

[sintzu]

Is there a slight chance for EOB to be just a part of Bardock's subconscious after he died?

The author said it was just a what if to promote heroes but it ends with Chilled telling his men to worn his family about the super saiyan so it was also written to tell us how Freeza found out about the legend as well.

There is this overarching opinion that everything Toriyama makes should be canon so... ugh, just ugh.

Like its amazing that the newer stuff is actually starting to make me retroactively somewhat dislike the series.

Like too how too much exposure of the new Ninja Turtles starts cloud your vision of the older content.

There should be exceptions to that and this is one of them, Bardock's story and character were established for over 20 years and he and Ooishi shouldn't have touched them cause all they did was ruin them and the impact they had on the franchise.

I noticed a lot of fans said that after he brought back Freeza so how much you want to bet that fans will be saying this when Trunks is reintroduced ? if Bardock and Freeza are anything to go by then I think he'll do something to mess up Trunks as well like bringing back everyone he lost with the super dragon balls.

It's not the exposure, it's the lack of creativity compared to what came before.

[DBZAOTA482]

DB Minus, not only does it make Goku too special but it's canon too.

[TheMikado]

DB Minus, not only does it make Goku too special but it's canon too.

I thought they both were.

[Grimlock]

I thought they both were.

Episode of Bardock is canon if you want it to be, there isn't much issue here about it.

[Kuririn Fan]

DB Minus, not only does it make Goku too special but it's canon too.

I thought they both were.

Episode of Bardock is Naho Ooishi's creation, Toriyama just did the design for Chilled.
Ooishi, i think, once said that she's a Bardock fangirl, so you can see why that turned out that way. And EoB was basically just a commercial for SS Bardock in Heroes.

[B]

In EOB, Bardock is the Super Saiyan of legend

No, he isn't. It's implied that he might be, but nothing is stated definitively. I feel like nobody but me read/watched this damned thing sometimes. Sometimes, I wish the special didn't exist if only to stop all the misinterpretation of the scene.

Neither really do anything to or for Goku. Time travel in DB results in a new timeline being created, so applying that logic to EoB, nothing that happens in it has any effect on the "official history" of the DB story, even if Bardock was the undisputed Super Saiyan of legend. Now, if you wish to ignore that(which seems weird to me, but fine), nothing makes the implication that Goku's lineage is "special" or "destined for greatness". His father had some weird things happen to him and did some halfway-heroic things. If the Son bloodline is so "special", why is Gohan a nerd? Goku arrived at his achievements because he's pure of heart; a result of a brain injury. Random happenstance. It wasn't just hard work that paid off for Goku, it was hard work with no agenda. Goku is all about bettering himself as a martial artist; he doesn't want to be "the best" so much as he wants to be the best that he can possibly be. If his possibilities had a limit, there'd be less story to tell, and probably not work thematically.

I don't think DB Minus has any real bearing on Goku as a character either, again, because of the head trauma. Sure, you lose that sense of irony that Goku was sent to destroy Earth. But, was that a huge, unrelenting deal? It's a nice moment of realization in the story when Raditz "reveals" this information(this guy really knew nothing in hindsight), but Goku has so many more moments and accomplishments up to that point, and beyond. Having "loving parents" doesn't mean a whole lot when you don't remember them; his slate was wiped clean of that. It really didn't matter what life for Goku was like before hitting his head, because it ended up not actually being his life.

Perhaps the whole ordeal of Bardock and Gine having affection for their child could be seen as too sappy for Dragon Ball, but I found it juuuust in the right realm of sappy as to not be distracting, if that makes sense. A small amount of sap is fine. Toriyama doesn't normally tell stories in that way, and as a result there isn't much of it(directly) in Minus. He was pulling a different trick out of his bag there, but not overwhelmingly unrecognizably so. Fans took what little was there(emphasis on "little"; Minus is too much of a nothing to get riled up over) and took it to its most negative extreme.

If there's anyone whose character was "victimized" by these specials/one-shots, it's Bardock himself, and even then I feel a lot of the backlash there is unwarranted. The bulk of people's complaints there is that Saiyans are supposed to be these evil robots and Bardock showing a shred of decency is "wrong." He's still pretty much a bastard in his Episode(I'll give extra props to Nozawa in the animated version; the thin line between maybe giving a shit about Berry or not is walked fairly well; Bardock never says anything without a nasty, annoyed tone), and Minus introduces him as coming back from a mission where he probably slaughtered some people. Bardock is never painted as a good guy in any of his stories.

[Hellspawn28]

Episode of Bardock is mention to be a what if story by Naho Ooishi. So you can say that the whole thing never happen and Bardock died when Freeza blew up Planet Vegeta. DB- on the other hand is written by Toriyama. I didn't mind it that much since the Bardock TV special was mainly done by Toei and Bardock was added to the manga later on. Also Goku had similarities to Superman before DB- and no one really cared. EOB is bad, but you can watch it and be like "This what could have happen if Bardock didn't die".

[Captain Strawberry]

Minus because it's Bardock's actual character. Like comparing Old Funi Goku dub and Kai/manga Goku as an analogy.

The Bardock specials were never canon so you can't really say they hurt Bardocks character.

[sintzu]

Goku had similarities to Superman before DB- and no one really cared.

The only thing he had in common with him was the loving adoptive father who raised him but unlike Superman he was sent to earth to destroy it and didn't have loving parents but in Minus he has loving parents and they sent him away to protect him from the planet's destruction which is exactly like Superman being sent away by his loving parents to escape Krypton's destruction.

[Captain Strawberry]

I just wonder how old Goku is in Minus.

[Grimlock]

Going by Gine's words, he is 3 years old, being born in AGE 736. But you can round up that and say he was born in AGE 737 (as the usual), which makes him being 2 and some months years old.

[dbzfan7]

EOB. Both are awful. Really bad. But even if Goku's greatest irony is gone, at least he's not super duper special because of genes and shit. In EOB, Bardock is so cool and awesome, he can go Super Saiyan. He's way stronger than King Vegeta ever was. So if his dad had this much potential, then it's no surprise Goku has so much. The thing about Goku is he was a low potential saiyan, who earned everything (Cept God LOLZ) with hard work. He was low trash who normally couldn't have amounted to anything. He was only special by human standards.

[Zephyr]

Eh, I still think that Super Saiyan God was the culmination of Goku turning so many fucking enemies into family. God was like the ultimate payoff for him.

[Lord Beerus]

Episode of Bardock with a doubt. I've gone into detail in the past about why I hate everything about Episode Of Bardock, so I'll just take a portion of my original rant that applies to this thread:

Plus, with EOB making it seem as though Bardock was the original legendary Super Saiyan, it makes it seem as though that it was all in the genes that Goku would become a Super Saiyan, and not because he was his own unique individual. That single handedly ruins the entire theme of the Super Saiyan, and with that, arguably the entire portion of Z.

Besides, while the irony of Goku being sent to Earth in the first place may have been lost to a degree because of Minus but tragedy that an entire race was wiped out over the fears that an galactic overlord had for their potential is still there. And Bardock is still a mass murdering, battle loving, space pirate. He just happens to give a shit about his family. And for many years, he and Gine took part in mass genocide of countless species, while wilfully working for an evil galactic overlord. They aren't good people no matter how fans may interpret their actions in Minus, and I'm pretty sure the both of them are rotting in hell.

[sintzu]

I'm pretty sure the both of them are rotting in hell.

Being hanged from a tree with little teddy bears singing isn't exactly hell.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm pretty sure the both of them are rotting in hell.

Being hanged from a tree with little teddy bears singing isn't exactly hell.

I'm certain Freeza is a special case.