Did SS3 Goku surpass Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan?

[rereboy]

You are once again twisting logic, arguments and yourself to fit into a desired conclusion, imo. You assume that Radditz could have stopped the attack without dodging simply because you want to assume that as true, not because what happens supports that conclusion. This seems to be your m.o.. No point in a discussion, then.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Radditz was constrained and defenceless. We didn't see an energy beam clash there. And why do you rule out then that the reason Goku said they had no chance against Super Buu was because he would produce a similar amplified attack like kid Buu. As a matter of fact before Goku cut Buutenks in half with the Kienzan, Buutenks was about to do the same thing.

Because he said Super Boo was too strong to fight without Fusion. That's much different than anticipating a certain tactic.

Also, Goku still thinks Fusion is necessary if they're unable to return him to Fat Boo.

He said "as your alive again you should have enough energy".

What version is that from?

Original: “You’ll sta-stall for time?…Yo-you’ve just been restored to life. Your ki still ain’t full, is it?!”
Viz: "Buy time? "But you're still weak from before!"

Radditz dodged the attack because that was the best option. As simple as this. Assuming he knew a half decent ki attack he could produce an energy beam of his own too and have a beam struggle. Goku against kid Buu didn't have the option to dodge. But he had the option to fire a Kamehameha which IS an amplified attack and constantly portrayed as the most powerful -- see also Cell choosing it over the others.

Raditz: "Right through my armor. Quite a blast. Imagine if I'd let it hit me...Tsk. Wouldn't be much left of me, eh...?"

Raditz dodged it because the attack would've otherwise been the end for him. He stopped Goku's KMHM because it was weak, but dodged Piccolo's Makank because it was too powerful to stop.

[LowRyder2005]

Also, Goku still thinks Fusion is necessary if they're unable to return him to Fat Boo.

Within that particular excerpt lies my main gripe with the general idea that Goku basically threw aside Super Saiyan 3 while discussing the available tactics to deal with Super Buu as well.
Goku indirectly implies through that affirmation that "if they do not bring Gohan-Buu back to the very first one, they'd have done well to remain Vegito". So Goku and Vegeta can't beat any form of Buu that is not "the very first one" unless fused. This would possibly, on paper, support the idea that Goku never wanted to use SS3; however, Goku is implying that they can beat the very first one while being unfused too, and it appears that he couldn't beat Fat Buu as a SS2. Therefore, it stands to reason that Goku was thinking about using Super Saiyan 3 at the very least in that occasion.

I suppose one could deal with it by either interpreting it more loosely, alas arguing that Goku was referring to Super Buu and/or that Super Saiyan 2 Goku could have, in fact, defeated Fat Buu and Majin Vegeta easily as a SS2 (the latter would in turn need one other corollarium or two, Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta being drastically stronger than Majin Vegeta, for one).

[ekrolo2]

Goku openly admits that Super Boo would kill him and Vegeta if they just waltzed out of there even after getting the boys and Piccolo. His insistence on fusion and moments later, complaining at Vegeta for destroying the earrings which would've given them access to a faster and stronger version of fusion clenches it for me on the debate if he's stronger than Gohan or Gotenks in the Boo arc. Hell, I've got trouble buying him being stronger than them in the BoG arc unless they got dozens upon dozens of times weaker in the span of what, 4 years?

[Lord Beerus]

As far as the manga is concerned, no. Goku never surpassed Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan. But in Battle Of Gods and Resurrection F, oh hell yeah, Goku left Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan in the dust with two Goldy transformations. Now the question of whether Goku has surpassed Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan in Super is still up in the air due to the inconclusiveness of how strong Base Goku is.

[Analytic]

So what do you think ? Did Goku really surpassed Gotenks and Gohan ?

Eh, it's the anime, so Goku was never weaker than them to begin with.

I agree with this. He was always significantly weaker in the manga, though. That's a stated fact.

[dragon ball truth]

Before i say goku was ever in the buu series was strong AS gohan in the ultimate state; someone would need to show me that goku, with proof could have dominated fat buu without any energy blasts at all; and with buu being serious as he never was in that fight against ssj3 goku.

One thing i think a lot of people dont realize in the argument about goku vs gotenks is that even when gotenks was in base form the fat buu gotenks fought was stronger than when he fought goku at ssj3 and gotenks was still able to do damage against that stronger fat buu.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I just try to look at the fact that Gotenks is implied to be above any Super Saiyan 2.

But even if people have an issue with that when adhering to the Daizenshuu entry, Gotenks is most definitely way stronger than any Super Saiyan. Anything less is a silly low-ball. So if Super Saiyan Gotenks is way stronger than Super Saiyan Goku, naturally this would apply to their following forms. When looking at it like that, it just seems more likely that he's weaker than Gotenks rather than him hiding some ridiculous amount of power in a form he can barely control.

[KentalSSJ6]

Absolutely not. Gotenks and Gohan were leaps and bounds stronger than SSJ3 Goku in the Buu saga. Some would say he surpassed them with his consistent training from Buu to Beerus's arrival but since Beerus says he still couldn't beat Freeza in base, the gains he made in that gap were small to minuscule at best. Toei may like to have Goku look like the end all be all strongest good guy (looking at you Wrath of The Dragon) but he was playing second fiddle to Gotenks and Gohan until he attained and absorbed SSJG.

[Bullza]

I highly doubt Vegeta would even be taking Gotenks into an account being that he's just a temporary being that Vegeta never even saw. Is he really going to strive to be stronger than the combination of two little kids?

And Gohan weakened greatly by the time of Resurrection F which was only about a year after he made that comment so he probably was weaker than Goku by that time.

[apex_pretador]

I highly doubt Vegeta would even be taking Gotenks into an account being that he's just a temporary being that Vegeta never even saw. Is he really going to strive to be stronger than the combination of two little kids?

And Gohan weakened greatly by the time of Resurrection F which was only about a year after he made that comment so he probably was weaker than Goku by that time.

Didn't AT himself comment that BoG was a point where everyone was at their peak condition (in terms of power obviously) ??
That means Gohan (BoG) = Gohan (buu arc)

[Speedster]

You assume that Radditz could have stopped the attack without dodging simply because you want to assume that as true, not because what happens supports that conclusion.

Not at all. That is simply what someone who is not blinded my narrow-mindedness about supposed rules can legitimately deduce. And here is why:

(a) During the first Makankosappo Radditz was preoccupied with Goku and was mostly off-guard so his best option was to dodge. He could have possibly cancelled Makankosapppo with a beam of his own but he didn’t have much time to charge a powerful enough ki attack given that all happened so fast. When Goku cancelled out Nappa’s mouth beam with a fast Kamehameha, Vegeta commented about how impressive feat it was for Kakarot to react and produce a beam of his own [that powerful] that quickly. From that we can deduce that Radditz would be incapable of reacting and produce a powerful ki blast to destroy Makankosappo that quickly and so his best option was to dodge.
(b) Radditz survived a headbutt of a power level 1307 when his defences were somewhat up. The first Makankosappo was 1330… hardly a difference in terms of the power it contained. So Makankosappo’s effectiveness may have actually been its drilling nature like Kienzan’s is slicing.

One thing i think a lot of people dont realize in the argument about goku vs gotenks is that even when gotenks was in base form the fat buu gotenks fought was stronger than when he fought goku at ssj3 and gotenks was still able to do damage against that stronger fat buu.

In the manga the fight of base Gotenks Versus Fat Buu is not shown. There is only one panel showing Gotenks returning to the lookout beaten up. Ah, and by the way, base Gotenks got more beaten up than base Vegeta got by kid Buu (and at that moment base Vegeta was not at 100%). So there you have it… base Gotenks (pre RosaT)<base Vegeta (vs kid Buu).

[rereboy]

Not at all. That is simply what someone who is not blinded my narrow-mindedness about supposed rules can legitimately deduce. And here is why:

(a) During the first Makankosappo Radditz was preoccupied with Goku and was mostly off-guard so his best option was to dodge. He could have possibly cancelled Makankosapppo with a beam of his own but he didn’t have much time to charge a powerful enough ki attack given that all happened so fast. When Goku cancelled out Nappa’s mouth beam with a fast Kamehameha, Vegeta commented about how impressive feat it was for Kakarot to react and produce a beam of his own [that powerful] that quickly. From that we can deduce that Radditz would be incapable of reacting and produce a powerful ki blast to destroy Makankosappo that quickly and so his best option was to dodge.
(b) Radditz survived a headbutt of a power level 1307 when his defences were somewhat up. The first Makankosappo was 1330… hardly a difference in terms of the power it contained. So Makankosappo’s effectiveness may have actually been its drilling nature like Kienzan’s is slicing.

Practically anything is possible if we are willing to interpret it a certain way. Your problem is that you don't analyze what it's there and reach the most logical, likely conclusion. Instead, you see a merely possible interpretation and because it fits your tastes, you argue that that's the conclusion.

That's what you are doing with Radditz... Basically you are saying: "It's possible that Radditz could have, perhaps, possibly, have stopped the attack with an attack of his own, but couldn't because he had been busy with Goku, and even though that's a mere possibility that really doesn't have anything backing it as true, and it's not really the most likely and logical conclusion to take from those scenes, I'm going to assume it's true".

[Speedster]

Practically anything is possible if we are willing to interpret it a certain way. Your problem is that you don't analyze what it's there and reach the most logical, likely conclusion. Instead, you see a merely possible interpretation and because it fits your tastes, you argue that that's the conclusion.

Basically you are saying: "It's possible that Radditz could have, perhaps, possibly, have stopped the attack with an attack of his own, but couldn't because he had been busy with Goku, and even though that's a mere possibility that really doesn't have anything backing it as true, and it's not really the most likely and logical conclusion to take from those scenes, I'm going to assume it's true".

Radditz survived with not that much harm an attack of a power level 1307 yet he was going to be killed by a Makankosappo of 1330. To me the logical thing to say is that there is something more into that whole scene than the mere power level of the attack and that there were other factors that came into the play (e.g. Radditz not having time to react differently by e.g. destroying with a blast of his own, he simply didn't want to lose energy and chose to dodge, the drilling nature of the technique was what making the attack more lethal, etc). After all Radditz challenged Piccolo to try that attack again being confident it wouldn't work on him if he tried it again.

Anyway even ignoring the fact that you are actively ignoring the presentation of information, events and statements from the manga backing up my argument in order to merely dismiss it, what makes you believe that YOUR own interpretation is the most logical/generally accepted one and that mine is lunatic in comparison? Have you done a survey to reach a consensus or anything? Or you just think it is the most logical one because you say so? You talk about m.o. yet your own is pretty much "What I believe to be true is by definition the most logical conclusion there is and any opposing argument is either illogical or far-fetched at best. And I am going to dismiss it without providing any argument of my own either - I will just paint these people as fools."

[Bullza]

Didn't AT himself comment that BoG was a point where everyone was at their peak condition (in terms of power obviously) ??
That means Gohan (BoG) = Gohan (buu arc)

Yeah he said something like that and that they had also gotten pretty old by the epilogue.

I'm sure the intention with Battle of Gods was that Gohan was just as strong as he was in the Buu arc but then in the next movie they mentioned that he hadn't been training and could just about turn Super Saiyan.

If he'd stopped training after the Buu arc then it doesn't make much sense for him to still be as strong in Battle of Gods but then drastically weaker after another year.

Unless he did keep up his training till BoG and then stopped training and his power plummeted in a single year.

[Kaboom]

Unlike the original manga which portrayed Gohan's "ultimate" state as a permanent change to his power and being, Toei seems to treat it like a transformation. Some alternative to Super Saiyan that allows him to tap into all his dormant power at once instead of x50-x100 increments or whatever. So from that angle, it's halfway plausible that he could still barely pull it off during Battle of Gods but have lost the ability by Resurrection F a year later.

[ssbgoku]

Didn't AT himself comment that BoG was a point where everyone was at their peak condition (in terms of power obviously) ??
That means Gohan (BoG) = Gohan (buu arc)

Yeah he said something like that and that they had also gotten pretty old by the epilogue.

I'm sure the intention with Battle of Gods was that Gohan was just as strong as he was in the Buu arc but then in the next movie they mentioned that he hadn't been training and could just about turn Super Saiyan.

If he'd stopped training after the Buu arc then it doesn't make much sense for him to still be as strong in Battle of Gods but then drastically weaker after another year.

Unless he did keep up his training till BoG and then stopped training and his power plummeted in a single year.

Maybe but all point rather to them being already weaker in bog then in buu arc, only with gohan and gotenks as they slacked off in time of peace in opposite to them goku and vegeta keeps training hard, so this way I have:

buu arc ultimate gohan - 10
buu arc ssj3 gotenks - 8
bog arc ultimate gohan - 5
bog arc ssj3 gotenks - 5
bog ssj3 goku - 5

Well honestly I see goku only suprassing buu arc ultimate gohan using either ss or ssb. IN base after universe 6 I see base vegeta or goku on par or even above but still below buuhan.

[dragon ball truth]

You assume that Radditz could have stopped the attack without dodging simply because you want to assume that as true, not because what happens supports that conclusion.

Not at all. That is simply what someone who is not blinded my narrow-mindedness about supposed rules can legitimately deduce. And here is why:

(a) During the first Makankosappo Radditz was preoccupied with Goku and was mostly off-guard so his best option was to dodge. He could have possibly cancelled Makankosapppo with a beam of his own but he didn’t have much time to charge a powerful enough ki attack given that all happened so fast. When Goku cancelled out Nappa’s mouth beam with a fast Kamehameha, Vegeta commented about how impressive feat it was for Kakarot to react and produce a beam of his own [that powerful] that quickly. From that we can deduce that Radditz would be incapable of reacting and produce a powerful ki blast to destroy Makankosappo that quickly and so his best option was to dodge.
(b) Radditz survived a headbutt of a power level 1307 when his defences were somewhat up. The first Makankosappo was 1330… hardly a difference in terms of the power it contained. So Makankosappo’s effectiveness may have actually been its drilling nature like Kienzan’s is slicing.

One thing i think a lot of people dont realize in the argument about goku vs gotenks is that even when gotenks was in base form the fat buu gotenks fought was stronger than when he fought goku at ssj3 and gotenks was still able to do damage against that stronger fat buu.

In the manga the fight of base Gotenks Versus Fat Buu is not shown. There is only one panel showing Gotenks returning to the lookout beaten up. Ah, and by the way, base Gotenks got more beaten up than base Vegeta got by kid Buu (and at that moment base Vegeta was not at 100%). So there you have it… base Gotenks (pre RosaT)<base Vegeta (vs kid Buu).

Some things were correctly rectified in the anime in comparison to the manga; the manga was stupid in some areas, and was fixed by the anime.

[DBZAOTA482]

Muten Roshi made a comparison of Rageta to SSJ3 Goku so it's possible... but Roshi never felt Goku fight as SSJ3 post-Boo Saga.

[Bullza]

Maybe but all point rather to them being already weaker in bog then in buu arc

If it didn't go past the Battle of Gods movie I'd have just said they were the same. After all Gohan did seem to put up a slightly better fight than SSJ3 Goku did.

When you take Resurrection F into account it's possible that he was weaker. He either got weaker after the Buu arc or after Battle of Gods. One or the other.