How strong do you think Goku's base is (in Super)

[ssbgoku]

It seems tricky as we have nothing to base of vegeta or goku power, although it may change with comming episode where ss3 gotenks will face copy of vegeta(hopefully only base or at least in base he will fight and then dominate with ssj). This combined with fact that

Both gohan and gotenks got already weaker in bog then in buu arc, only with gohan and gotenks as they slaced off in time of peace in opposite to them goku and vegeta keeps training hard, so this way I have:

buu arc ultimate gohan - 10
buu arc ssj3 gotenks - 8
bog arc ultimate gohan - 5
bog arc ssj3 gotenks - 5
bog ssj3 goku - 5

[BitchIlooklikeGoku]

Base Goku = SSG Goku = 60% of Beerus

SSB Goku > 70% of Beerus

SSB Goku + 10x Kai-o-Ken > 72% of Beerus

SSB Goku form from utilizing SSJ power with God ki.

SSJ Power = 50x base normal power

50x increase translate = 10 % god ki increase ----> 10X increase translates to 2% increase on god scale.

[VegettoEX]

Just a friendly reminder that strings of equations aren't actually a valid post - please be sure to contribute something worthwhile. Thanks!

[LowRyder2005]

There is only one timeskip and this is at the start of the first episode (6 months after the defeat of kid Buu plus 'some time') and that is it. Between episode 1 and 2 (actually between 1 and 14) there is no timeskip. Watch episode 3 again. Elder Kaioshin says this: “After waking up Beerus-sama destroyed 8.5 planets in just half a day”. And the half of a planet is the one he destroyed in ep. 1.

Strictly speaking, I did recall it incorrectly. I thought the second timeskip is mentioned right after Satan gives the money to Goku at the end of the episode. That's why I said between ep. 1 and ep. 2 there was a time-skip... so, yeah. The timeskip actually happens throughout the first half of the episode, I think.

Now was the timeskip at the start of episode 1 five whole years? Personally I don't buy it. I mean Mr Satan would have received the award before they wished for Buu's memories to be erased. Am I supposed to believe that it took him 5 years to give it to Goku? And what about Gohan and Videl? Were they unmarried for 4-5 years too? And what about Goten and Trunks not aging? To me it makes far more logical sense to assume that BoGs is probably 1-2 years since the defeat of Buu and that Pan's age at the EoZ is simply retconned.

You can label it as poor writing since Pan's date of birth has simply not been retconned yet. If you find the Daizenshuu too old, even Xenoverse, and we're talking about a fairly recent iteration of the saga, has 774 as the official date for what happens in BOG (the movie version). Xenoverse 2 will probably keep the same dates while dealing with Super's rendition of whatever happened in 774, and they're expressly adhering to what is the true timeline of what happens in Dragon Ball.

I still think that even with a, say, one-year skip you'd encounter some questionable passages (though I agree on Goten and Trunks physical appearance compared to, say, Gohan's rendition; on the other hand, Goku pretty much looked like Goten when he was 15 years old... I mean, even their heights are strikingly similar): like, Gohan was starting High School right before the Buu Saga, now he has a job and he's married. Plus, it doesn't really sound like Gohan to quit school.

This is in from Akira Toriyama’s interview in Daizenshuu 4: World Guide released in October 1995.

Question: Out of all your characters, which one is the most cool?
Toriyama: "I think it’s Goku". The always pure strongest in the universe. Goku is #1 after all!

What I quote in blue seems to not be part of Toriyama's answer (unless the quotation marks were misplaced) but it is nonetheless in Daizenshuu 4 -- something that even if not part of Toriyama's answer is something the editorial stuff felt confident to comment next to the original author's response (and if you see the rest of the interview there are very few such unquoted comments in the answers). The other unquoted comments are that Roshi is a pervert and Bulma is a genius i.e. things we know are true.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/ ... yama-best/

I believe you misunderstood. I'm not even arguing that Goku can't stronger than Gohan (since in the anime he most likely is) or trying to derail it into the usual Goku vs. Gohan debate, I was saying just that the Chou form is supposed to be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 in general. This is supported by Shueisha's guide word-per-word: it literally says that Gohan is stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 while using that form. At bare minimum, it means that Ultimate Gohan would be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gohan, and that's what I was aiming at.

That being said, I'd have a hard time taking a casual remark like that as a definite confirmation of Goku's superiority per se, but I'm afraid to say that piece you are referring is strictly speaking inconsequential even if we were in fact trying to find something conclusive for the manga: you'd have to either take it literally ("Goku is always the strongest") - and you can't, since we have a history of characters surpassing Goku during this or that saga - or refer it to the most recent versions of the character in question (that particular Daizenshuu was released after the end of the series, so it'd just say that EoZ Goku is stronger than EoZ Gohan).
Therefore even if the Buu Arc is the last major arc, while End of Z is simply an epilogue, saying it should refer to Goku at the time of the Buu Arc and it proves that Goku is stronger than Gohan wouldn't be much different than theorizing that Goku was stronger than Perfect Cell during the Cell Game or that Goku was stronger than Vegeta during the Saiyan Saga.

But being literal there makes little sense to me, honestly. I just read it as the writer stating that Goku's most recognizible trait is that he's so strong he's able to always overcome the odds/ do the right thing/ strive to be the best, or a combination of all the above.

[Captain Strawberry]

It seems tricky as we have nothing to base of vegeta or goku power, although it may change with comming episode where ss3 gotenks will face copy of vegeta(hopefully only base or at least in base he will fight and then dominate with ssj). This combined with fact that

Both gohan and gotenks got already weaker in bog then in buu arc, only with gohan and gotenks as they slaced off in time of peace in opposite to them goku and vegeta keeps training hard, so this way I have:

buu arc ultimate gohan - 10
buu arc ssj3 gotenks - 8
bog arc ultimate gohan - 5
bog arc ssj3 gotenks - 5
bog ssj3 goku - 5

I don't think it's really stated or implied that Gotenks have gotten weaker.

[TheMikado]

So now we know base Goku/Vegeta greater than SSJ3 Gotenks by a good margin

[Blackstripe]

SSB Goku + 10x Kai-o-Ken > 72% of Beerus

Stuff like this always made me laugh. Why in hell would Gokuu ever risk straining his body and ki just for a 2% increase? Not to mention, it clearly gave him quite a dramatic power boost.

[LowRyder2005]

So now we know base Goku/Vegeta greater than SSJ3 Gotenks by a good margin

I think putting them between SS3 Goku an SS2 Rageta when getting serious (since half of the fights in DB Super so far have been comedy reliefs) would be a good estimation right now.

Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks isn't finger-flicked to death against a supposedly serious "evil" Base Vegeta and is still able to get smacked around, while getting up in the end as Trunks and Goten (in short he survives a beating from start to finish while staying fused; Copy Vegeta should in theory wreck him for around five minutes if the old timers apply). We could safely safe that if Copy Vegeta were as strong or stronger than the Beerus who finger-flicked Goku he would have owned SS3 Gotenks much easier.
Also, we know that the Beerus who finger-flicks SS3 Goku needs additional power to stomp the enraged Vegeta SS2, and in the anime SS3 Gotenks is behind SS3 Goku.

Beerus first power-up > Beerus [vs. SS3 Goku] > SS2 Rageta > Base Vegeta (U6 Arc and beyond) > SS3 Goku > SS3 Gotenks

[Hugo Boss]

I agree to some extent. If Beerus (vs. SS3 Goku) was stronger than My-Bulma-Vegeta, why bother to power-up? I would classify them as equals or Vegeta has a slight advantage.

Currently, I'm thinking about shrinking Monaka-Beerus' power to his weakest version, making it on par with Base Goku/Vegeta and weaker than Beerus (vs. SS3 Goku).

[BitchIlooklikeGoku]

I agree to some extent. If Beerus (vs. SS3 Goku) was stronger than My-Bulma-Vegeta, why bother to power-up? I would classify them as equals or Vegeta has a slight advantage.

Currently, I'm thinking about shrinking Monaka-Beerus' power to his weakest version, making it on par with Base Goku/Vegeta and weaker than Beerus (vs. SS3 Goku).

But that would mean monaka beerus is about only 1-5% of Beerus max which seems a very big suppression.

[Hugo Boss]

But that would mean monaka beerus is about only 1-5% of Beerus max which seems a very big suppression.

Well, Whis suggested Beerus never experienced such restraint, so I take that to mean this is his weakest version.

[supercat]

I think the whole point of showing Monaka-Beerus exerting a notable degree of effort was to elaborate on Goku's progression; I mean gaining the ability to somewhat tangle with the same opponent who effortlessly trumped and humiliated what was once the pinnacle of his strength (SSJ3) is a major milestone.

[ssbgoku]

I guess Ultimate gohan would be all right but if very serious then I can see base goku or vegeta(they are equal after all) around base vegetto ;p

[SaiyanGod117]

He's stronger than everyone in the original dragon ball manga.

[Captain Strawberry]

Do you think it's possible his base is as strong as Kid buu?

[Lord Beerus]

Do you think it's possible his base is as trong as Kid buu?

Hell yeah. Especially if the latest episode of Dragon Ball Super is anything to go by.

[Hugo Boss]

Do you think it's possible his base is as strong as Kid buu?

Yes. Goku makes a big deal of Boo when he is talking to Goten, as if he was stronger than everyone else. Then, Goten thinks Goku is the strongest in the world. By extension, Goku and Boo could be stronger than Gotenks. If Copy-Vegeta is stronger than Gotenks and as strong as Base Goku, then it's possible Base Goku is as strong as Kid Boo. It depends on preference.

[Captain Strawberry]

Do you think it's possible his base is as trong as Kid buu?

Hell yeah. Especially if the latest episode of Dragon Ball Super is anything to go by.

If that's true then it shows Whis's training methods are awesome but also, glad they didn't give any multipliers for SSJ Blue.

[Lord Beerus]

Do you think it's possible his base is as trong as Kid buu?

Hell yeah. Especially if the latest episode of Dragon Ball Super is anything to go by.

If that's true then it shows Whis's training methods are awesome but also, glad they didn't give any multipliers for SSJ Blue.

Whis already earned the title of greatest martial artist teacher when he took Vegeta from SSJ2 tier to SSJG/SSJB tier in six months.

[Captain Strawberry]

Do you think it's possible his base is as trong as Kid buu?

Hell yeah. Especially if the latest episode of Dragon Ball Super is anything to go by.

If that's true then it shows Whis's training methods are awesome but also, glad they didn't give any multipliers for SSJ Blue.[/quote]
Whis already earned the title of greatest martial artist teacher when he took Vegeta from SSJ2 tier to SSJG/SSJB tier in six months.[/quote]

What if Whis's training or the concept of what Whis's training is that Goku is learning to close the gap between his transformations (of normal ki) so it's a bit like Gohan's power before he lost it.