I feel Vegeta wanting to surpass Goku again is ruining DB

[TheGreatness25]

Ah. If that's the case, that's just dumb writing. Though, still can't help but get a sense of pride when you see your clone beating down a guy who you've been trying to surpass for a third of your life.

[DBZAOTA482]

I feel his attitude in regards to Goku being stronger is what bothers me. His epiphany during the battle with Kid Boo showed he grew to respect Goku but in Super he acts like Goku being stronger is a problem.

[ABED]

I feel his attitude in regards to Goku being stronger is what bothers me. His epiphany during the battle with Kid Boo showed he grew to respect Goku but in Super he acts like Goku being stronger is a problem.

He's still an alpha male, but he's now capable of recognizing reality for what it is. His epiphany was Goku was stronger than him and he doesn't have to deny that fact. It wasn't "I don't care if someone is stronger."

[MadSaiyantist]

Personally, I always felt that Vegeta's speech regarding Goku as being better than him was a bit out of character. I understand that it's a nice way to bring the character development to a close but still. I could easily see Super ending with Goku and Vegeta being equals who have mutual respect for one another.

[ABED]

If it had been during the Freeza arc, sure, it would be out of character, but Vegeta had progressed and the final step was to finally acknowledge to himself who the better of them was. I don't see how that is at all out of character at the end of the story.

[Vynak]

Well the clone was about to off his only son and Gokus kid until Goku stepped in so if the argument was that there were no consequences to Cheering on his clone and Gou losing one could argue that consequence was more personally dire.

Well technically he was cheering both of them on which shows his conflict. He even (sort of) acknowledges this at some point whenever Jaco gives him the wtf look.

I don't see how this is really a regression anyway, Vegeta still has his pride, he just has other priorities now which allow him to look beyond it when needed. That part was played up for humor anyway, he was more than willing to sacrifice himself for his son just minutes later.

[DBZAOTA482]

I feel his attitude in regards to Goku being stronger is what bothers me. His epiphany during the battle with Kid Boo showed he grew to respect Goku but in Super he acts like Goku being stronger is a problem.

He's still an alpha male, but he's now capable of recognizing reality for what it is. His epiphany was Goku was stronger than him and he doesn't have to deny that fact. It wasn't "I don't care if someone is stronger."

Vegeta already accepted Goku was stronger than him during the Cell Games. His epiphany was him realizing exactly WHY Goku is stronger and he will stopped letting his bias get in the way of things.

The only logical explanation for his current attitude in this regard is Toei/Toriyama aren't competent enough of writers to write Vegeta in line with his character development in the Majin Boo Saga and are afraid to progress the series in any meaningful way so... fanservice narrative onslaught.

GT's characterization of Vegeta (of what little they showed of him) was more in line with his character development in the Majin Boo Saga.

[ABED]

Vegeta already accepted Goku was stronger than him during the Cell Games. His epiphany was him realizing exactly WHY Goku is stronger and he will stopped letting his bias get in the way of things.

Did he really? Yes, he'll momentarily acknowledge someone is stronger than him, but he will still evade it eventually. This is different. He's not evading an unpleasant fact. He wants to be better, but he won't sell his soul to do so, but you bet your ass he's going to push himself to be the stronger of the two. Even in GT, towards the end he pushes himself to be stronger than Goku. This isn't fanservice. You missed what his development was. I fail to see why him figuring out why Goku is better allows him to move forward. Why is he letting his bias as you put it get in the way? Because he evaded the truth for years.

[Cipher]

I actually find Super's Vegeta more in line with his character at the end of the Boo arc than GT's settled-down version.

His revelation near the end of the Boo arc is that Goku continually outpaces him because he doesn't care about winning or losing -- only challenge and self-improvement. Vegeta, by comparison, has only ever cared about winning to that point.

He doesn't vow to stop competing. I think we're now getting a Vegeta that lines up with that revelation--he's become his own martial arts protagonist, willing to subject himself to various instructors to improve, fostering comparatively more friendly rivalries as a means of keeping himself getting better, etc. Doesn't he get a line in at least the TV version of the Resurrection "F" arc that he needs Goku around to "continue getting stronger"? Each still wants to outdo the other, because they can, but that's a sufficiently different motivation than "I need him around because I want to be beat him," which is the level on which they interact until the Boo arc. Even if he never outpaces Goku, at least he's getting better than he was before in his attempts to do so. That's a thought that would only frustrated pre-Boo-arc Vegeta. But it's one I believe Super Vegeta might accept.

[ABED]

I actually find Super's Vegeta more in line with his character at the end of the Boo arc than GT's settled-down version.

His revelation near the end of the Boo arc is that Goku continually outpaces him because he doesn't care about winning or losing -- only challenge and self-improvement. Vegeta, by comparison, has only ever cared about winning to that point.

He doesn't vow to stop competing. I think we're now getting a Vegeta that lines up with that revelation--he's become his own martial arts protagonist, willing to subject himself to various instructors to improve, fostering comparatively more friendly rivalries as a means of keeping himself getting better, etc. Doesn't he get a line in at least the TV version of the Resurrection "F" arc that he needs Goku around to "continue getting stronger"? Each still wants to outdo the other, because they can, but that's a sufficiently different motivation than "I need him around because I want to be beat him," which is the level on which they interact until the Boo arc. Even if he never outpaces Goku, at least he's getting better than he was before in his attempts to do so. That's a thought that would only frustrated pre-Boo-arc Vegeta. But it's one I believe Super Vegeta might accept.

Not to step on what you're saying because I agree in essence, but I do think Goku cares about winning or losing, he just has a healthier and more productive attitude about it.

[Cipher]

Not to step on what you're saying because I agree in essence, but I do think Goku cares about winning or losing, he just has a healthier and more productive attitude about it.

Ah, yeah. That's true. As soon as he finds out a new plane exists, he wants to match and surpass it.

But it's not to get recognition -- it's just to prove to himself he can do it, because he enjoys it.

Pre-Boo arc Vegeta would be happy to be the strongest and never have someone more powerful appear again. The same thought would depress Goku immensely and, I'd argue, post-Boo arc Vegeta as well (or at least it's starting to, as he's trying to approach things more like Goku--he at least recognizes stronger opponents as an opportunity for self-improvement rather than frustration they presented before).

[MetaMoss]

Not to step on what you're saying because I agree in essence, but I do think Goku cares about winning or losing, he just has a healthier and more productive attitude about it.

I'd say that the reason Goku cares about wins and losses is because he uses them as a metric for his self-improvement.

[ABED]

Not to step on what you're saying because I agree in essence, but I do think Goku cares about winning or losing, he just has a healthier and more productive attitude about it.

Ah, yeah. That's true. As soon as he finds out a new plane exists, he wants to match and surpass it.

But it's not to get recognition -- it's just to prove to himself he can do it, because he enjoys it.

Pre-Boo arc Vegeta would be happy to be the strongest and never have someone more powerful appear again. The same thought would depress Goku immensely and, I'd argue, post-Boo arc Vegeta as well (or at least it's starting to, as he's trying to approach things more like Goku--he at least recognizes stronger opponents as an opportunity for self-improvement rather than frustration they presented before).

Oh absolutely. Goku does it for himself. He's not looking for external affirmation.

I'd say that the reason Goku cares about wins and losses is because he uses them as a metric for his self-improvement.

It's the whole "What one man can do, another can do" attitude.

[FortuneSSJ]

In the last panel of DB Kanzenban ending, Vegeta still says he will surprass Goku one day.

[Akira]

I can't believe I just read through this entire thread beginning to most recent post. (I must be both tired and bored) guess I am going to respond.

Look, Mikado, I understand that you're young, and you're somehow miffed by Vegeta's depiction in Super, but it is a realistic character development for him.

First point: The old Z dub is fatally flawed in many many ways. So much so that it entirely re-writes the dialog and intent of many key scenes as well as many minor ones. If you're in the crowd that doesn't like the Japanese voices, then at least use the subtitle button and turn them on while watching said dub. There may be two tracks, if the words match what they are saying on screen, it is probably wrong, you want the subtitle track that goes with the Japanese version. Then you can directly contrast and compare what is said in the dub with what is ACTUALLY supposed to being said.

Prime example: Vegeta is crushed by Oozaru Gohan and finally beaten at the end of the Saiyan battle, the prince crawls towards his space pod to escape. Krillin gets to his feet, grabs Yajerobi's Katana, and draws back to take Vegeta's head off. (This scene is one of my most HATED dub scenes.)

-Dub Dialog involves Goku yelling for Krillin to wait, and asking him to spare Vegeta because he thinks he might become a powerful ally in the future, and references Piccolo. Krillin says something about "oh yeah, he's one of us now" (Which is also BS, Piccolo and Goku don't move beyond "reluctant allies" to "mutual respect friends" until they trained together for the Androids, much later) This scene is so full of fail in the dub that I despise it most for the out of character changes they made.

-Original dialog involves Goku asking Krillin to spare Vegeta, admitting the selfishness and foolishness of such a decision in the process. Goku says he would have lost, had the others not intervened, and that he wants to settle the score, maybe because of his saiyan blood, but he wants to fight and finish Vegeta off on his own, by his own power. Krillin says that Goku better not fail, and better be more than powerful enough to win, when and if Vegeta returns. Goku says he will be and thanks his friend for indulging his request.

Two entirely different sets of character motivations and dialog. I gave the rough idea of the differences, don't quote me picking out some small difference, it's been years since I watched original Z anime, and at least a year or two since I read the manga last. The point is, the dub butchered the whole scene and the whole meaning behind Goku's selfishness to ask Krillin to spare Vegeta so he could fight him to the death again and win. As opposed to the nonsensical "Spare him, even though he was about to kill us all moments ago, I really think he might become a good guy someday..." Such rubbish.

If a major scene like that is ruined that badly by the dub, what about all of those minor scenes you were mentioning? Do yourself a favor, go watch it with the proper dialog on screen, or read the original manga. Freeza treated Vegeta far worse than Beerus has. While I think he wants to fight and best Beerus in combat, I don't think he loathes him in quite the same way he hated Freeza. Besides, as they spend more time together, I think they are very slowly becoming friends with Beerus. It was Whis who had Goku and Vegeta wear the aprons and do chores (which in itself was an homage to Krillin and Goku training with Roshi in the first part of DB)

What was so wrong with the pink Apron? Vegeta would never voluntarily wear pink unless he was forced? Oh right, he wore the "badman" shirt back at the beginning of the Cell arc, that was pink too, wasn't it? Recurring themes, underlying character traits, it's part of what makes Dragonball Dragonball.

Vegeta always wanted the be strongest, that's who he is, unlike everyone else who gave up and figured Goku was too far beyond them, Vegeta never gave up, he just became more determined. Have you ever said anything you didn't really mean? "Ahh, I hate this game!" When playing a video game at a frustrating part? Maybe you really loved it, and hated that you were doing poorly at that moment? Having the characters react in a similar fashion in the story makes them more personable.

I seem to recall (the screwy dub may have changed the intent, again) that after the fight with Cell and Gohan blew him away, Vegeta left on his own and declared that he'd never fight again. Of course that wasn't true, he was bummed that his eternal rival had died, and therefore his chance to surpass him. He still trained hard and surpassed Gohan, but it wasn't the same without Goku there to be an obstacle/motivation. His declaration during the Kid Buu fight wasn't him giving up the rivalry, it was him, in his own way, giving up the desire to kill Goku. He said you're number 1, because he finally respected him. He never said it loud enough for Goku to hear it, and that should be noted. They became friends that day, working together to overcome opposition. That didn't change their rivalry, it just evolved to a new level. It became a friendly rivalry, where goading each other would help them both reach new heights. In that regard, Super picks up right where Z left off.

Do you ever admit to your best bud that you love hanging out together? Of course not, you goad each other, joke around, call each other names, but you have fun. Fighting is what they enjoy, so Goku and Vegeta still talk to each other like they used to, but the killing intent is no longer a part of it.

Watch the Kai dub, read the manga, or watch the original Z with the Japanese subtitles up, it will paint a different picture for you. Freeza was the perpetrator of mass genocide, wiped out most of the Saiyans, and kept Vegeta around as little more than a trophy and pawn. Vegeta showed him respect, because he had no choice, but he was plotting revenge from a very young age. He patronized him in Super, and played nice because he was mocking Freeza, and Freeza was too arrogant and ignorant to see it for what it was. I thought, if anything, that part of Super really showed Vegeta's nature. He finally was above Freeza, but Freeza had risen to a level where Vegeta could let loose and show Freeza just what a joke he now saw him as. He needed that moment where he tagged in and dominated, that was the culmination of a lifetime of insults, racist statements, and total humilation, he finally got to pay it back in a big way.

Like it or hate it, based on your own perception of things, you can't say that Vegeta is acting out of character. He's one of the best developed characters in the whole franchise. He's older, wiser, maybe slightly more mellow than before, but he is still the same guy, and I like what they've done with him thus far. Goku and Vegeta both want to be stronger than Beerus. Will they ever get to fight him and beat him outright? Possibly, no one can say for sure at this point, but I'm starting to see Vegeta and Goku both winning Beerus over. The god of destruction respects them both now. He may say he'll kill them, or blow up the earth (and at this point, it is probably still a possibility) but he's starting to make idle threats, and I think it is because he's growing fonder of them. Whis trained them, but Beerus is starting to care about their development too, and I think he will end up just becoming an ally in the long run. It is a great dynamic, and one of the parts of the show that I enjoy watching and seeing how it will turn out.

[TheMikado]

Look, Mikado, I understand that you're young, and you're somehow miffed by Vegeta's depiction in Super, but it is a realistic character development for him.

WOW, so do you normally make assumptions that are completely wrong or just pull things out of your ass and pass them as fact? I will reply to the rest but I mean literally your first statement is completely incorrect with a baseless assumption that literal has no reasonably argument.

First point: The old Z dub is fatally flawed in many many ways. So much so that it entirely re-writes the dialog and intent of many key scenes as well as many minor ones. If you're in the crowd that doesn't like the Japanese voices, then at least use the subtitle button and turn them on while watching said dub. There may be two tracks, if the words match what they are saying on screen, it is probably wrong, you want the subtitle track that goes with the Japanese version. Then you can directly contrast and compare what is said in the dub with what is ACTUALLY supposed to being said.

So again we are touching on interpretation where elitism creeps in and apparently the ONLY acceptable viewing of the Dragonball series is with the original Japanese. Localizations be damn!! Look we touched on this, the American Dub version of Vegeta and Dragonball in general skews the characters different. I'm not planning on rewatching hundreds of episodes of Dragonball and DBZ just to pick out the lines which make characterization differences. This is the way the show has been presented and that presentation was approved so the view of that character is as valid as any other. If the characterization doesn't appear to align with that then it's the localizations problem, but unfortunately for many purest its still valid. This is almost exactly like the argument raging between the Super manga, and the show, and the movies on which was "closer" to Toriyama's or the creator's original intent where if gives someone grounds to discount which ever material someone else viewed. This is both a fanbase problem, and a artistic "consistency" problem. The tendency of this fanbase to discount a person's experience with the series due to the medium they chose or unwittingly experienced it through is disgusting. You can argue that the artist and those adapting it have freedom to make the story whatever they want, whenever they want. Or you can make a standard that that must follow creative guidelines for consistency sake. It's amazing to here people discredit different versions of the same stories which have Toriyama's approval but are also the same people to state that it's Toriyama's story as the artist and he is free to change it or let it be changed how he pleases. My personal belief is that artistic integrity and consistency is important and I disapprove of allowing so many variations to exist in the first place.

What was so wrong with the pink Apron? Vegeta would never voluntarily wear pink unless he was forced? Oh right, he wore the "badman" shirt back at the beginning of the Cell arc, that was pink too, wasn't it? Recurring themes, underlying character traits, it's part of what makes Dragonball Dragonball.

This is so bizarre because it being Pink is only a secondary issue with apron. First lets address the Badman shirt. Dragonball Z was created in the 90's a time when Miami Vice and pop culture encouraged trending, neon colored attire even on men. It's a shirt which properly assigns to his default gender even with the color and this is driven home with the words "BADMAN" written on it. Even if Vegeta was disgusted by the shirt or "forced" to wear it, it was still masculine in nature and no blow to his pride. By contrast the Apron first and foremost represents "Servitude" and "Subordination" a position that Vegeta, from my understanding has never tolerated in his entire characterization without INTENSE resentment and openly plotting revenge. This has nothing to do with strength, power, etc. I find it bizarre that people are equating Vegeta's pride to his power level. While it is a contributing factor Vegeta's PRIDE stems primarily from his ROYALTY title. A title which he flouts just as much if not more than his power level. Vegeta's character development was primarily about his POWER LEVEL in relation to Goku. This is separate than Royal heritage, but still connected. Anyway the issue is that the Apron represents a blatant attack on his pride as a Prince and his masculinity. If Vegeta had, had appropriate character develop from what we did see it would follow that Vegeta would be grossly unwilling or resentful maybe even to the point of saying he "Doesn't care if Goku was stronger if it means giving up his pride". Remember the only characterization that was resolved was Goku being better/Stronger, not that his royalty pride disappeared. Vegeta shouldn't even care at this point and definitely not to the point where he's not annoyed as the embarrassments.

Watch the Kai dub, read the manga, or watch the original Z with the Japanese subtitles up, it will paint a different picture for you. Freeza was the perpetrator of mass genocide, wiped out most of the Saiyans, and kept Vegeta around as little more than a trophy and pawn. Vegeta showed him respect, because he had no choice, but he was plotting revenge from a very young age. He patronized him in Super, and played nice because he was mocking Freeza, and Freeza was too arrogant and ignorant to see it for what it was. I thought, if anything, that part of Super really showed Vegeta's nature. He finally was above Freeza, but Freeza had risen to a level where Vegeta could let loose and show Freeza just what a joke he now saw him as. He needed that moment where he tagged in and dominated, that was the culmination of a lifetime of insults, racist statements, and total humilation, he finally got to pay it back in a big way.

Again this idea that Frieza humiliated him extensively is ridiculous. Frieza had an army of hundreds/thousands, yet Vegeta reported directly to Frieza and Frieza only. He wasn't in the kitchen scrubbing pans or cleaning toilets or changing bed sheets. He was nearly equal with his General in pure rank and commanded his own squad. To put this into context, even if you only are in charge of a group of 3 people if you report DIRECTLY to the PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ALONE they you would be considered pretty high ranking. This NOT something Frieza was obligated to do, he had wiped out all the saiyans and could blink and be rid of Vegeta. To be honest, he didn't even have to do it himself, nearly every soldier in Frieza's army was itching to kill Vegeta. It says A TON that Vegeta was given such high rank for no reason (He wasn't even that strong), plus wasn't off'ed by any other soldiers for fear of Frieza's retaliation. Even ignoring all this, in Super Frieza still offers him a chance to come back as his highest ranking Subordinate!! I mean he led to Frieza's death with straight-up treason and prevented his wish for immortality and then Vegeta's own son permanently kill him... Frieza has killed his own men for far far far less. You absolutely positively CANNOT make the argument that Frieza showed a TON of favoritism to Vegeta. I just don't see how people can still make this argument that Frieza treated Vegeta badly when he literally gave him preferential treatment, titles, status, and all the things someone with the title of Prince should expect to have.

Like it or hate it, based on your own perception of things, you can't say that Vegeta is acting out of character. He's one of the best developed characters in the whole franchise. He's older, wiser, maybe slightly more mellow than before, but he is still the same guy, and I like what they've done with him thus far. Goku and Vegeta both want to be stronger than Beerus. Will they ever get to fight him and beat him outright? Possibly, no one can say for sure at this point, but I'm starting to see Vegeta and Goku both winning Beerus over. The god of destruction respects them both now. He may say he'll kill them, or blow up the earth (and at this point, it is probably still a possibility) but he's starting to make idle threats, and I think it is because he's growing fonder of them. Whis trained them, but Beerus is starting to care about their development too, and I think he will end up just becoming an ally in the long run. It is a great dynamic, and one of the parts of the show that I enjoy watching and seeing how it will turn out.

Vegeta does have the best character development which is why this does not make sense at all. This elitist attitude about his Heritage and Royal title NEVER goes away. He even still refers to himself as a Prince in Super! His character development surrounded his relationship with Goku and his power/ability, this isn't the Prince and the Pauper. Vegeta never has his royalty epiphany, only his power level epiphany which are TWO SEPARATE THINGS. Yes Beerus has become more fond of them, but that doesn't change the fact that Beerus is a bully of the highest order, especially towards the Saiyans. Frieza was and tyrant and commented Genocide, but to my knowledge he never forced ackward situations on his enemies in an attempt to keep their lives, he just kill coldly and mercilessly rather than mentally embarrassing and bully his victims. This is pretty much the reason I also can't understand why people like Beerus. Anyway like it or not Beerus is far far far more of bully in terms of actual bullying than Frieza even was and Vegeta due to his personality should not and never did tolerate straight up bullying without severe resentment. That's just a personality trait that HAS NOT YET been addressed and developed enough as far as I'm concerned.

[ABED]

Vegeta's royalty and battle power are linked. Saiyan culture was based on strength.

This is pretty much the reason I also can't understand why people like Beerus. Anyway like it or not Beerus is far far far more of bully in terms of actual bullying than Frieza

Beerus is a god. He doesn't destroy things out of malice, it's his job. He's not evil, he just IS. Freeza killed because he could and enjoyed it.

[rereboy]

Beerus is a god. He doesn't destroy things out of malice, it's his job. He's not evil, he just IS. Freeza killed because he could and enjoyed it.

He chooses what to destroy based on his stomach, comfortable pillows and who makes him made mad, not what needs to be destroyed the most for the sake of the equilibrium in the universe between creation and destruction.

He is a god, it's his job, but he is using that as an excuse to fulfill his own petty needs, like a cop who pick and chooses who he gives a speeding ticket to based on his own petty reasons. That makes him a bully, and, by extension, petty and evil.

[ABED]

Beerus is a god. He doesn't destroy things out of malice, it's his job. He's not evil, he just IS. Freeza killed because he could and enjoyed it.

He chooses what to destroy based on his stomach, comfortable pillows and who makes him made mad, not what needs to be destroyed the most for the sake of the equilibrium in the universe between creation and destruction.

He is a god, it's his job, but he is using that as an excuse to fulfill his own petty needs, like a cop who pick and chooses who he gives a speeding ticket to based on his own petty reasons. That makes him a bully, and, by extension, petty and evil.

I'm basing this purely on what I've seen from the movie and while there's some truth, he's still the "god of destruction" a title he didn't give himself. Yeah, he destroys on a whim but it's still fulfilling his job.

[MetaMoss]

*snip*

I can understand the pain of your preferred version of the series being thrown to the wayside, and I really don't appreciate the harsh tone Akira took with you, but I think you're lacking some perspective here. From how I'm reading this (and I could be mistaken), it looks like you see Vegeta's recent character development in the movies and Super to be unrealistic based on how Vegeta was portrayed in the old Funimation dub. My question is where did you get the idea that Toei/Toriyama should give any care to how Funimation adapted the series from 1996-2005? Funimation itself has shown since 2010 with the Kai dub and after that they don't care how they adapted the series back then. They'll re-release the old dub, for sure (it works well to get them fat stacks of cash), but any Dragon Ball adaption from this decade by Funimation has shown to have a priority of having characterizations that match the Japanese original.

Back to the Japanese production: they are producing a continuation to the series that was serialized in their country in Weekly Shonen Jump from 1984-1995 and was adapted as a TV anime produced by Toei that aired on Fuji TV from 1986-1996. Vegeta's character in Super comes from this, because why wouldn't it? Japan is still the audience that Dragon Ball primarily targets; the other places it's a success in are just a nice bonus. Funimation's changes to how the original was presented are Funimation's problem and theirs alone. I'd bet they even realized that their inaccurate adaption might come to bite them in the ass (as we can see here), so when they had a "clean slate" with Kai, they took the chance to give English-speaking fans the series in a way that is compatible with how the Japanese and other countries with accurate dubs experienced it.

Still, Funimation's old dub still ended up screwing people over, because we have folks like you who fell in love with the series through airings on Cartoon Network (or the DVDs and VHS tapes), but are now left in the dust, with no continuation of their DBZ to speak of. I myself was raised on this dub (it was the way I could relate to my parents when I was really young), but I was able to transition with the Kai dub and ended up reading the manga, so I became familiar with the "more accurate" characterizations. Lots of folks, including you, didn't get there. I don't blame you, Funimation presented a complete version of DBZ, so you had no reason to seek out another version. But here lies a big issue that people have with inaccurate adaptions: it ends up fracturing the fanbase, and if a more accurate one comes along later, it ends up screwing over fans of the older one.