Would you have liked to see Pioneer dub the franchise?

[NitroEX]

I would have loved to see Pioneer do a complete English Dub of Z and Dragon Ball. I sometimes wish I could go to another dimension where Pioneer did do the full series and buy all the DVD's they have for it.

Did you not read that long post that Vorige Waffe made about how Pioneer never did any dubbing? I'm a bit baffled that people seemed to be ignorant of how the "Pioneer Movies" were still Funimation's productions.

And it baffles me that people still don't realize that Funimation had barely any creative control over these dubs. Just because they own the rights to them doesn't mean Pioneer had no influence, just look at what Funimation produced without Pioneer and see how long it took them to reach the same levels of quality.

Calling them Pioneer's movies is just an easy way to identify them, the same as calling the first DBZ English dub the "Saban dub", if we call everything of that era the Funimation dub then no one will know what you're talking about.

[MetaMoss]

And it baffles me that people still don't realize that Funimation had barely any creative control over these dubs. Just because they own the rights to them doesn't mean Pioneer had no influence, just look at what Funimation produced without Pioneer and see how long it took them to reach the same levels of quality.

Calling them Pioneer's movies is just an easy way to identify them, the same as calling the first DBZ English dub the "Saban dub", if we call everything of that era the Funimation dub then no one will know what you're talking about.

I'm genuinely curious, do we actually have information on the extent of the control that Pioneer had on these movies' dubs?

[NitroEX]

I'm genuinely curious, do we actually have information on the extent of the control that Pioneer had on these movies' dubs?

I can't recall it being detailed in any Funimation interviews (I can't imagine the company would be proud of it...) but the evidence is all there as far as I can tell.

Pioneer are credited in the films as having produced the English dubs in association with Funimation which means they had to have at least had some control over the creative decisions that went down.

From my perspective Pioneer's influence on the movie dubs is pretty evident, aside from keeping Funi's established dub names, the direction and translation was unusually faithful for a Funimation dub which was uncharacteristic of the company at that point in time. After the deal with Pioneer ended Funi went on to dub the rest of the Z movies themselves in a less faithful style when compared to the dubs Pioneer previously produced. The best examples are Funimation's own redubs of the first three movies (which they did once Pioneer's rights expired). Not only did they choose to use replacement BGM for the redubs but their script of movie 3 featured many of the same errors present in the unfaithful Saban TV version (I believe Sean Schemmel also mispronounces Kaioken in those dubs whereas Pioneer made sure Kelamis said it right the first time). It's pretty apparent to me that the two companies just had differing views on how anime dubs were meant to be handled and this came through in the final product.

According to this page from 1998, it states that Pioneer "has the rights to produce an uncut subtitled version" so this could mean that Funimation offered them a deal which allowed them to produce and distribute uncut DBZ. This would help explain why Pioneer had as much freedom as they did on those movies.

[Adrian Malacoda]

According to this page from 1998, it states that Pioneer "has the rights to produce an uncut subtitled version" so this could mean that Funimation offered them a deal which allowed them to produce and distribute uncut DBZ. This would help explain why Pioneer had as much freedom as they did on those movies.

According to this 1998 interview with Barry Watson, Funimation had an agreement with Pioneer for them to produce an uncut dub for VHS. The way he words it strongly suggests Pioneer had creative control over this project:

Then again, obviously, there are some die-hard anime fans who would really rather see the uncut version, and for that we're working with Pioneer. Pioneer is releasing uncut versions of the episodes as well as the TV versions, so for people who want to see the show uncut, that'll also be readily available. For the uncut versions, they do a second recording. Pioneer basically oversees the anime script, and we coordinate to some extent with them.

For whatever reason, we never got the TV show in this format, but the movies were probably part of this deal.

[NitroEX]

For whatever reason, we never got the TV show in this format, but the movies were probably part of this deal.

Just a theory but, they might've originally planned to dub the series uncut but due to the show being cancelled abruptly after only two seasons, it forced them to hurry things along and dub the movies instead.

Since DBZ wasn't proving to be successful at the time, Pioneer likely didn't want to waste more money than necessary dubbing 67 episodes. Also, if they were contractually obligated to produce an uncut release then the movies would have been the more appealing option.

[VegettoEX]

I don't quite understand this "wasn't successful" mindset. In a pre-Pokemon era, DBZ got upgraded to its own full hour-long timeslot in a syndicated weekend television block. That's... not insignificant.

The only thing holding DBZ back was FUNimation's business situation. In spite of that, and in spite of all its production issues, it was a colossal success over the course of 1996-1998.

[ABED]

I don't quite understand this "wasn't successful" mindset. In a pre-Pokemon era, DBZ got upgraded to its own full hour-long timeslot in a syndicated weekend television block. That's... not insignificant.

The only thing holding DBZ back was FUNimation's business situation. In spite of that, and in spite of all its production issues, it was a colossal success over the course of 1996-1998.

In terms of viewers? Not saying you're wrong, but what is your support for that? I don't think it was an abject failure, but I wouldn't call DBZ a runaway success until it got on Cartoon Network.

[VegettoEX]

That's what people keep saying, but that's not the point.

Yes, DBZ saw MORE success when it hit Cartoon Network, but to dismiss the fact that it ALREADY WAS a success before that? Seems to be just another narrow-minded "nothing existed before Toonami" mindset.

Again, it got its own hour-long timeslot. In syndication. Across the country. That doesn't just happen for no reason or is given to a failure of a show.

[ABED]

That's what people keep saying, but that's not the point.

Yes, DBZ saw MORE success when it hit Cartoon Network, but to dismiss the fact that it ALREADY WAS a success before that? Seems to be just another narrow-minded "nothing existed before Toonami" mindset.

Again, it got its own hour-long timeslot. In syndication. Across the country. That doesn't just happen for no reason or is given to a failure of a show.

No, it wasn't an abject failure, and having an hour block on syndication is nothing to sneeze at, but it wasn't a big success.

[Theophrastus]

I mean...the fact that Saban pulled out and apparently didn't see any value in providing any funding for a third season of the Ocean dub (which eventually resulted in Funimation taking the production in-house) would seem to imply that it didn't really meet whatever their expectations for popularity were, at least.

[8000 Saiyan]

Hell yes, if it was dubbed like the first three movies.

Nah, the voices WERE a problem. What people DO like is the attitude toward the dub. But they also didn't have Japanese audio, so the casting is WAY off.

More realitically - Saffron Henderson- Masako Nozawa, Cathy Weseluck- Kuririn, Roshi- Garry Chalk, Matt Hill- Yamcha, Mark Hildreth- Tenshinhan/16, Christopher Judge- Kenji Utsumi, Venus Terzo- Bulma, Don Brown- Kaio-sama, Tara Strong- Chi-Chi, Brian Dobson- Piccolo, RIC- Vegeta, David Sobolov- Nappa, Lee Tockar- Freeza, Kirby Morrow- Trunks, & between David S & K, Scott McNeil, & the Dobson bros, hopefully we'd cover the bases of Lord Gori.

I'm quite sure that Tara Strong never acted in Vancouver, only in Toronto.

[Hellspawn28]

Pioneer/Geneon died out in 2007, so I wonder if Dragon Ball would have kept them alive after 2007 if they had the rights to the series instead of Funimation? Or if another company would have pick up to Dragon Ball after 2007.

[Attitudefan]

Pioneer/Geneon died out in 2007, so I wonder if Dragon Ball would have kept them alive after 2007 if they had the rights to the series instead of Funimation? Or if another company would have pick up to Dragon Ball after 2007.

Most likely Pioneer would still be around today if they milked DBZ like FUNi has done. FUNi is around only today for DBZ.

It looks like there would have been a Saban dub (which we got), and a complete uncut DBZ anime series with the movies and the TV show (essentially what FUNi did in the early 2000s, offering a edited VHS but uncut DVDs). So the plan was to have the cartoony TV Saban/FUNi/Ocean directed/produced dub and the Pioneer/FUNi/Ocean directed/produced home release dub. That is actually the best way things could have gone. It is a damn shame FUNi ran out of money and opted for what we got instead.

However, it is possible that the home release Pioneer version of DBZ could have been similar to the Orange Brick dub in the sense that only some lines would be rerecorded (or removed, such as "my arm will grow back" just being omitted) and would still retain much of the bad translations. That is a large possibility. However, if Pioneer did have such a deal with FUNi that gave them a large creative role in production, it is possible the whole TV show would have been redubbed faithfully like the movies were.

I lean towards a faithful uncut Pioneer produced home release of the TV anime because, while the Tree of Might movie had the edited Saban version for TV airings, it was completely re-recorded faithfully for home release. That clues me to think that Pioneer had a large amount of creative power to plan a wholly faithful uncut English dub of the entire series, uncut/unedited without a replacement score.

As some of the arguments made earlier in the thread saying that without the edited dub, it would have been like Ranma with a cult following only. I think FUNi/Pioneer/Saban/Ocean were aware of this and that is why they had the edited version and a planned uncut version. Therefore, the Toonami boom still happens but we get a FAITHFUL uncut dub of the series as well.

Man, what could have been.....

[Sailor Haumea]

Can someone explain which dub is which?

I know what the Funi, AB Groupe, and Malaysian dubs are, and the Ocean dub is the one with the censorship, but what are the 4Kids, Pioneer, Westwood, and Blue Water dubs?

[Attitudefan]

Can someone explain which dub is which?

I know what the Funi, AB Groupe, and Malaysian dubs are, and the Ocean dub is the one with the censorship, but what are the 4Kids, Pioneer, Westwood, and Blue Water dubs?

The edited 1996 dub that aired on TV was a collaboration by FUNimation, Saban, and Ocean Studios. The Pioneer dub is actually a home release deal FUNimation made to distribute the show uncut. So, the uncut films made in the late 90s were produced by FUNimation, Pioneer, and Ocean Studios. These versions were aired and had home distribution in most (if not all) of the English speaking world.

the "Westwood dub" is really the AB Groupe licensed version of the show where they hired Ocean Studios (from Vancouver; the Vancouver location is the Westwood branch of Ocean Studios) to do the voice work for Z only (missing the second half of the Ginyu arc and all of Freeza up until Trunks defeats Freeza). The Blue Water dub is AB Groupe's produced dub as well for the original and GT but not Z. Blue Water is the branch of Ocean Studios located in Calgary (and therefore, a much smaller location with less actors) whom were hired by the AB Groupe. The Blue Water dub is predominantly uncut with original Japanese BGM. The AB Groupe dub was aired in Canada, the UK, and the Netherlands.

There is no 4Kids dub of DB/Z/GT. EDIT: I forgot, the 4Kids 'version' is just a a broadcast version with more edits and alterations of the already edited Funimation/Nicktoons version. They used their own talent pool to redub and replace some lines (they barely did it, but there was a sentence or two that were redubbed) that they perceived as too harsh (Vegeta's line of "get the trash off the battlefield" was completely redubbed by a 4Kids actor to make it more G-rated). 4Kids also made some edits that painted over, most notably Popo was recoloured and lines were removed from Freeza's crotch area. Otherwise it was just the TV version of FUNi's Kai dub that aired on Nicktoons.

[Sailor Haumea]

Can someone explain which dub is which?

I know what the Funi, AB Groupe, and Malaysian dubs are, and the Ocean dub is the one with the censorship, but what are the 4Kids, Pioneer, Westwood, and Blue Water dubs?

The edited 1996 dub that aired on TV was a collaboration by FUNimation, Saban, and Ocean Studios. The Pioneer dub is actually a home release deal FUNimation made to distribute the show uncut. So, the uncut films made in the late 90s were produced by FUNimation, Pioneer, and Ocean Studios.

the "Westwood dub" is really the AB Groupe licensed version of the show where they hired Ocean Studios (from Vancouver; the Vancouver location is the Westwood branch of Ocean Studios) to do the voice work for Z only (missing the second half of the Ginyu arc and all of Freeza up until Trunks defeats Freeza). The Blue Water dub is AB Groupe's produced dub as well for the original and GT but not Z. Blue Water is the branch of Ocean Studios located in Calgary (and therefore, a much smaller location with less actors) whom were hired by the AB Groupe. The Blue Water dub is predominantly uncut with original Japanese BGM. The AB Groupe dub was aired in Canada, the UK, and the Netherlands.

There is no 4Kids dub of DB/Z/GT.

Which dub is the most faithful to the original Japanese?

For 4Kids, I remember Kai having Blue Popo for 4Kids.

[simtek34]

Can someone explain which dub is which?

I know what the Funi, AB Groupe, and Malaysian dubs are, and the Ocean dub is the one with the censorship, but what are the 4Kids, Pioneer, Westwood, and Blue Water dubs?

The 4kids one was the DBZ Kai Funimation dub edited for the FCC, for example, Blue Popo, No Death, and Sean Schemmel having to re-record lots of lines. (Sean also worked for 4kids also)
The Pioneer Dub is the ocean dub of the first 3 movies uncut and with Kai-Like (Mabye Better) scrips and voice acting. The Westwood Dub was the Brand-New Ocean dub for Trunks-Kid Boo Sagas. It was edited and censored similar to the BLT and Saban Ocean Dubs. The Blue Water Dub was the Ocean Dub for GT and OG Dragon Ball (Including Episodes 1-13) with accurate scripts.

There You Go!

[simtek34]

Which dub is the most faithful to the original Japanese?

For 4Kids, I remember Kai having Blue Popo for 4Kids.

The Pioneer one or Blue water

[Sailor Haumea]

So basically, to get the most accurate English experience (with filler):

Blue Water dub of Dragon Ball
Funi dub of Dragon Ball (Episodes 14-153)
Pioneer dub of movies
Funi dub of DBZ
Blue Water dub of GT

Does the Blue Water dub have much censorship?

[Attitudefan]

So basically, to get the most accurate English experience (with filler):

Blue Water dub of Dragon Ball
Funi dub of Dragon Ball (Episodes 14-153)
Pioneer dub of movies
Funi dub of DBZ
Blue Water dub of GT

Does the Blue Water dub have much censorship?

This is about right. However, DBZ is unfaithful in all English dubs despite the visual content being uncut; the English script in all dubs are poor, censored, and unfaithful to the original content. Otherwise Kai would be the way to go. But yes, with filler, I guess FUNi's Texas dub would be the best (term used loosely) for a more accurate English experience.

Pioneer only did the first 3 DBZ movies sadly. So the rest would have to be FUNi's Texas dub again, which has the problems Z has in English. The only exception would be the first Broly film, movie 8, which is dubbed pretty faithfully by FUNi's in-house cast.

I believe Blue Water retains the Japanese script except there are no curse words. They do use the Japanese terms for ki attacks and names of characters.

So the most faithful English experience (without Kai) would be:

Blue Water dub of Dragon Ball
Pioneer dub of movies (movies 1-3)
FUNi dub for the rest of the films
Funi dub of DBZ
Blue Water dub of GT