No, it's not a sign of desperation, it's just that a few people have probably mentioned that to you now, but it hasn't made a difference.Magneto wrote:That`s because I am . And grammar remarks are signs of desperation . And Goku mentioned bringing both of them to Vegeta , thus individually neither one of them were strong enough to beat him .
The key here is the particle や (ya), which not only doesn't mean "and", but isn't even as strong as definitely one or the other - what he's talking about is someone, with Gohan and Gotenks as two possible examples.Magneto wrote:Original Japanese Manga : http://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=149qn5.jpg
Your logic is quite funnyNo, it's not a sign of desperation, it's just that a few people have probably mentioned that to you now, but it hasn't made a difference.
And Goku mentioned bringing both of them because they are both stronger than Goku.
Why exactly would he bring both of them , if it was already stated that at full power SSJ3 Goku is stronger than him , yet according to you both of them are stronger than Goku , thus only one would be needed ? Don't completely ignore what I write and a manga scan I've posted and then tell ME to read your posts. Except kid buu couldn't transform into buff buu. As evident in the fact that he held the form for a few seconds and then THE MANGA EXPLAINS that its a regression of buu's first absorptions.Read my posts before writing the same thing . Good Boo was already disconected from Boo`s body , and all that remained was Kid Boo`s body , and despite that he transformed into Buff Buu . Which means , that Kid Boo`s power was enough to transform into Buff Boo , thus South Kaioshin couldn`t have made him stronger and Kid Boo > Super Boo .
Completely ignoring me proving you wrong doesn't make you less wrong, just more of a troll sorry, you're going to have to do much better than ignore the evidence you don't like to be anything other than a troll.Without being fused , at that size they couldn`t have won , thus the comment Goku made about Vegeta breaking the potara . And the rest you wrote is pretty much useless , so yeah .. Goku > Kid Buu > Gohan > Gotenks .
No he does not suggest they beat him and find an exit. He says it as a question. After a pause and while sweating at the thought. This is after vegeta says its going to be trouble and goku yells at him for breaking the potora, and goku is quite worried at the fact that buu knows they cannot fuse.Goku suggests that they can beat him and find an exit , so this doesn`t really sound like "desperation" . And I already replied to everything you wrote there in SS2 Vegeto`s post , I`m not going to repeat myself .
You must be really slow for not getting it . I never said it wasn`t a regression , I said that South Kaioshin was no longer connected to Kid Boo , thus the energy level that Kid Boo had was enough to attain the Buff Buu transformation .Don't completely ignore what I write and a manga scan I've posted and then tell ME to read your posts. Except kid buu couldn't transform into buff buu. As evident in the fact that he held the form for a few seconds and then THE MANGA EXPLAINS that its a regression of buu's first absorptions.
Kaioshin even states: This process... He's turning back.
Completly ignoring ? Trolling ? What the hell are you talking about ? You have a wild imagination lolCompletely ignoring me proving you wrong doesn't make you less wrong, just more of a troll sorry, you're going to have to do much better than ignore the evidence you don't like to be anything other than a troll.
That statement was made before buu appeared, before they realised they were so weak inside of buu. The were just going to bust out of buu right then. Super buu > Goku and Vegeta.
So he asks Boo if they wil have to find an exit after defeating him ? Why would he do that ?No he does not suggest they beat him and find an exit. He says it as a question. After a pause and while sweating at the thought. This is after vegeta says its going to be trouble and goku yells at him for breaking the potora, and goku is quite worried at the fact that buu knows they cannot fuse.
And presenting two easily disputed pieces of evidence over and over and over does not make you right. That just makes you annoying
You really are a slow one . It was a remark that insinuated the fact that they will beat him and find an exit for themselves . The literal translation clearly shows that it says Gohan(Rice) and Gotenks so I don`t see the problem . Who to trust , 3 translators and 2 persons who translated it for me and also about 3 different versions of the manga , or you ?The key here is the particle や (ya), which not only doesn't mean "and", but isn't even as strong as definitely one or the other - what he's talking about is someone, with Gohan and Gotenks as two possible examples.
I haven't been following the thread so I don't even know what's being discussed, but I thought I'd chime in with some Japanese help.
Because, when he mentioned to Vegeta, "I know! You're gonna Gohan and Gotenks to fight with us!" he already faded from SSj3 and mentioned he was actually losing power after almost reaching his full power.Magneto wrote:Your logic is quite funny
Ok, let me ask this, if SSj3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan weren't stronger than Goku, and Goku couldn't use SSj3 anymore, what would be the point of even wanting them to come in the first place?yet according to you both of them are stronger than Goku , thus only one would be needed ?
If anything , both of them being stronger than Goku according to you supports even further the ideea that both of them wouldn`t be needed .
It matters a lot. I think it's highly illogical that all the ki within him vanishes/drains out instantly (regardless of a long lasting transformation). When you pull the stopper out of a tub full of water, it doesn't instantly blast down the drain with extreme speed and force. The Ki drained out, some of it was weaker, some of it was stronger. Everthing drained out, and Buu's body changed in accordance to that.Magneto wrote:It doesn`t really matter Kid Boo hadn`t appeared yet , the point is that nobody was connected to him anymore , thus the power that appeared was him all along . It doesn`t really matter Good Buu charged him up all day , because he was already disconnected when Buff Buu appeared , using Kid Buu`s power .I don't view it as an issue of power at all. When the Buu of pure Innocence was removed, it triggered a rapid degression back to his original state. It did not need to have anything to do with Chibi Buu's ability, because Chibi Buu had not appeared yet, and the Good Buu had been charging him with that energy the entire day. Upon his removal, he simply passed through that form to arrive back at the very start of his being.
I`m not talking about the fact that he made the statement after the fight , I`m talking about the fact that the Dragonballs were already mentioned before the fight with Kid Boo , so Vegeta knew that they could revive Gohan & Gotenks anytime , yet he said Goku is the only one who can fight him .Vegeta first mentions the dragonballs (during the course of that fight) 36 pages after he first refers to Goku as the only one who can beat Buu. In that time, he never makes this statement again. In fact...I just checked. I don't see him ever making that statement again. Goku was alive, Vegeta was alive, and anyone else who was alive was completely useless in the fight...Vegeta serves only to buy time, and Goku can match Buu, and apparantly "obliterate him", should he reach full power. Only Goku can kill Buu.
Original japanese manga had Goku saying that he thought Vegeta revived everyone on Earth so that Gohan or the boys could come up to fight Buu (and believe me, he said OR, meaning that in his mind either one of them could do the job). Besides, Vegeta was risking a lot with having Goku use the Genki Dama because both other times it had been used it failed. He gave his reasons as to why, and none of those reasons included Gohan and/or Gotenks not being strong enough to beat Chibi Buu.
You know , this is the 2nd time somebody says to me that Vegeta said OR when he said AND . So either you told him about this , he told you about this , or both of you have been told wrong .
Original Japanese Manga : http://img259.imageshack.us/my.php?image=149qn5.jpg
The text from where Goku says to bring Gohan and Gotenks :
なんだわかつたぞ!ごはんやゴテシクスをいきかえらせてたたかつてもらおうつてんだ
The literal translation (I`m too lazy to get it right) :
The [wa] which is what and it is!Boiled rice and [goteshikusu] it goes and the gill [se] [te] it is the connection which connection probably will receive high it is it is
In japanese Gohan means rice . So yeah , he says bring Gohan and Gotenks .
So stop using arguments you`ve heard/seen at somebody else , without checking it out yourself . I know a guy who used to do the same thing, using the arguments from the mfg forum , and when counter arguments came he blocked .
Who said anything about losing power ? I said that at that size they couldn`t have beaten Buu , nothing reffering to their powerlevel . By that comments , Goku said that it would be easier if they fused outside with the potara (since potara couldn`t be used inside Boo`s body) than fighting Boo inside his own body . I see nothing wrong with that . As for Super Buu saying that , well Goku also insinuated that they can beat him and find an exit . Besides , why wouldn`t Boo be confident since he was fighting inside his own body ?Them shrinking down as much as they did wouldn't have caused them to lose power in any way, since Gohan, Goten, Trunks, and Piccolo were all shrunk down to the same size yet they were still supplying Buu with their full ki. To add to that, Vegetto makes a point of stating that he'd "kept his strength" upon being turned into candy. Do you suppose that he would be any weaker, should he be of the same size without any changes or alterations to his body? I wouldn't think so. I'd say he'd be just as strong as ever. Further, Goku seems anything but confident, come face to face with Shin Buu in his own body. Whereas he has no desire to attempt any sort of fusion against Chibi Buu, he panicks and and continues to stress the issue to Vegeta, who is completely decided on the fact that he will never be one with Goku again, in Shin Buu's case.
Vegeta: Now this looks like...it could be trouble...!
Goku: I told you to keep the potara on!! This would've been easy if we could combine!!
Shin Buu: ! (continued) ...So...You can't combine anymore...
Goku: RK?!
Vegeta: Idiot!! You couldn't keep your mouth shut?!!
Shin Buu: Hee hee hee...That's nice.
Goku and Vegeta: UH...!!
Goku: Try it -- and we'll blow a hole in your body!!
I'm really picking up a hint of desperation, here. They were practically wetting themselves. Looking it over, I don't see any signs of confidence in either of them, when faced with the problem of having to fight him. They continually try to find another way out. So why such a panick over someone they can just obliterate and solve the problem? When I look at this, I see two individuals just as worried about the problem staring them in the face as they had been when it was first brought up. To add even more to this, Majin Buu (Gotenks Prime) had already encountered Goku in super saiya-jin 3 state, and Shin Buu can both sense ki, and retains the memories of his previous forms. Yet upon Goku's inquiry of the necessity of defeating him to escape, Shin Buu states plainly: "You can't do it. You're gonna die."
On the "plan" point, it's true that they didn't believe that Chibi Buu could come there, but I have serious doubts that a permanent fusion would even be considered when it wasn't absolutely necessary.
And when you are smaller than a flea, as they were against Super Boo , potara was absolutley necessary .
Read my posts before writing the same thing . Good Boo was already disconected from Boo`s body , and all that remained was Kid Boo`s body , and despite that he transformed into Buff Buu . Which means , that Kid Boo`s power was enough to transform into Buff Boo , thus South Kaioshin couldn`t have made him stronger and Kid Boo > Super Boo .No matter how you want to rationalise it, it was a regression from the various absorptions back to the original buu. Its even explained in the manga.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j52/M ... w/buu3.jpg
All the kaioshins got ripped out at once when vegeta removed the good buu from super buu. Buu then reverts through the transformations back to his original form.
As a matter of fact they did , proven by later statements , which i`m not about to repeat .They didn't underestimate him that much, because they say that they can take him at first, and by your own admission, SSJ3 goku is stronger than buu.
Without being fused , at that size they couldn`t have won , thus the comment Goku made about Vegeta breaking the potara . And the rest you wrote is pretty much useless , so yeah .. Goku > Kid Buu > Gohan > Gotenks .
You've already said that SSJ3 goku is stronger than buu, but that gohan and gotenks aren't? Jesus
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j52/M ... w/buu1.jpg
Now obviously you think that by "like this" he's talking about being small, even though he references not being fused in the same panel. Or in the very next chapter goku and vegeta are completely unaware of how powerless they are inside of buu's body. That was a pretty common troll argument six years ago, but it just doesn't work anymore.
They're talking about their chances against the actuall super buu, which gohan manhandled and gotenks fought evenly against. Gohan > Gotenks > Goku.
Goku suggests that they can beat him and find an exit , so this doesn`t really sound like "desperation" . And I already replied to everything you wrote there in SS2 Vegeto`s post , I`m not going to repeat myself .Actually, when buu appears inside his own body, vegeta comments that it could be trouble, and both vegeta and goku are sweating. Goku still sweating mind you says in as a question that they have to beat buu first. Then vegeta rips out the other buu.
He broke the potora because he Likes to rely on his own abilities, and they were both confident in SSJ3 beating buu. Which you apparently agree.
I love how you just declare yourself the winner of every topic. And feel the need to space in-between periods, and other punctuation. And as far as Goku knew, Gohan and the others were still passed out, and even after mentioning to have them come fight, Vegeta rejected the idea.
That`s because I am . And grammar remarks are signs of desperation . And Goku mentioned bringing both of them to Vegeta , thus individually neither one of them were strong enough to beat him .
Because, when he mentioned to Vegeta, "I know! You're gonna Gohan and Gotenks to fight with us!" he already faded from SSj3 and mentioned he was actually losing power after almost reaching his full power.
Moments sooner prior to saying to Vegeta that he`s gonna bring Gohan and Gotenks to fight with them , it was stated that at full power , Goku can obliriate Kid Buu . Now if both Gohan & Gotenks were stronger than Goku at full power , there would be no need to mention bringing them both , since only one of them would be enough to obliriate Kid Buu , according to you . Thus , since he said both it means that neither of them are stronger than Goku`s full power .Ok, let me ask this, if SSj3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan weren't stronger than Goku, and Goku couldn't use SSj3 anymore, what would be the point of even wanting them to come in the first place?
He (Goku) mentions he wanted Gohan and Gotenks to come and fight. But never states it'll take all of their combined efforts to actually beat Chibi Boo.
Not in this case since the power actually increased . You can`t increase power with something you don`t have .It matters a lot. I think it's highly illogical that all the ki within him vanishes/drains out instantly (regardless of a long lasting transformation). When you pull the stopper out of a tub full of water, it doesn't instantly blast down the drain with extreme speed and force. The Ki drained out, some of it was weaker, some of it was stronger. Everthing drained out, and Buu's body changed in accordance to that.
Not needing somebody else and somebody else not being able to fight Kid Buu are 2 different things . If Vegeta truly would have meant only for that moment , then he would have said something like "Now that Gohan and Gotenks are dead , you are the only one who can fight him" but he didn`t .If they had no desire to involve anyone else at that point (or need, from Vegeta's perspective at the time), it wouldn't have even mattered. At that point in time, Goku was the only one who could beat him...because, at that point in time, he was the only one stronger than Buu. There's no need to consider the power's of dead men theoretically, in such a statement regardless of the possibility of ressurection, when at that point in time they are dead. That statement does not have any need to involve them. It could just as easily, and probably was, as statement concerned with the hear and now.
I asked 3 persons who speak the Japanese language , I`ve myself used 2 translators , and I`ve also checked 4 mangas .I made a slight error, here. If you want to get really literal on this point, the word translates directly to neither "or" nor "and". You, in turn, appear to have used a babelfish translation, or some other internet website/text translator, which is one of the single worst sources I could possibly think to rely on. If someone else translated it for you, they probably used one. If they say they didn't, they're probably lying, because I get the same results on babelfish. I've done my homework, and I've got a Japanese - English dictionary right next to me. I can translate again and break it down this time if you or anyone else can get me the Romaji so that I can just look it up in a few minutes. It's in Katakana right now, and I still need to cross refference a lot of different sources to get something clearly accurate on the non-romanized characters.
EDIT: I checked up on it. The term in question, "ya" can be used to mean and as well as or, depending on the character(s) used. In this instance, it is neither "and" nor is it "or". As has been said by Mystery Person X, the particle や (ya), not only doesn't mean "and", but isn't even as strong as definitely one or the other - what he's talking about is someone, with Gohan and Gotenks as two possible examples.
Besides , all the official mangas are translated by professionals , and eventough sometimes they make mistakes , 4 different mangas saying the same thing is a little too much . There`s a difference between a flea and a candy and there`s also a huge difference between Vegeto & Goku . And no , Goku didn`t state that he was stronger than them , in the Japanese manga he says that he is too strong , not that he is stronger than them . (the literal translation is "His strength doesn`t serve us at all" . And if you`re about to fight somebody inside his own body , and even worse , a person who can regenerate (And buu could most likely regenerate inside his own body since all the enviorment was practically him) , then it`s only normal to panic like they did . But even in those conditions , Goku insinuated that they will beat him and find an exit (Why exactly would he question Shin Buu , when it was obvious ?) .If their power levels didn't weaken, there's no reason to assume that size made that much of a difference. Vegetto certainly didn't have much trouble as a coffee drop (in fact, it was even more difficult because Buu couldn't attack him), and Goku had blatantly stated that he was still stronger than either of them...so if their power levels didin't drop, and Shin Buu is still stronger than either of them, then Shin Buu>>>Goku>>>Chibi Buu. Further, Goku ends off by emphasizing to Vegeta not simply the point that they would fail to destroy him if they had gone out in an unfused state, but that they would both be killed. Goku had never insinuated that he could win either...he recognized the fact, and questioned Shin Buu on it, and to me he looked quite aggrevated. We've never been shown that Shin Buu has any extra advantages within his own body other than the ability to move freely through it, and such has never been hinted at. It doesn't seem rational to me to assume that he probably did regardless, simply for the sake of one scenario becoming more plausible in that instance. And if I had a power level marginally higher than my opponent's, I wouldn't be too worried about the safety of my own life, regardless of something like stature.
I stand fully behind what Mystery Person X said. That's how I take what Goku said anyway.Magneto wrote:Moments sooner prior to saying to Vegeta that he's gonna bring Gohan and Gotenks to fight with them, it was stated that at full power, Goku can obliterate Kid Buu. Now if both Gohan & Gotenks were stronger than Goku at full power, there would be no need to mention bringing them both, since only one of them would be enough to obliterate Kid Buu, according to you. Thus, since he said both it means that neither of them are stronger than Goku's full power.
Why would be the point of bringing them? I suspect Gohan is not much weaker than Kid Buu, more like a 1.1 difference, but still enough for Kid Buu to have a slight advantage in their fight. And with both him and Gotenks fighting against Kid Buu, they would have a chance at beating him. And since Goku says to bring them both it does mean that it takes their combined efforts.
Mystery Person X wrote:It could refer to both of them. It could also refer to just one of them, or those two plus various other people, or possibly someone else entirely. The key thing here is uncertainty, which is what や brings into the equation.
I don't think translating it as "Gohan and Gotenks" is wrong, but I also don't think it's clear enough in the Japanese that you can use it as the basis of an argument.
I hope you don't mind me answering this one too. Goku wasn't saying to Boo "We'll beat you then find a way out." With a look of extreme discomfort on his face and sweat on his head he said something along the lines of "So...we have to beat you first...?" and this was said as if these were the lest words he'd ever say. That's my point of view anyway. And Vegeta didn't appear to have confidence in Goku either. If he did I'm sure he'd let him fight, but instead he went for door #2: pulling Boo's pod.Magneto wrote:Goku insinuated that they will beat him and find an exit (Why exactly would he question Shin Buu, when it was obvious ?).
I'm not following your logic any more than I think you're following mine. Imagine you dropped a hairdryer into a pond, before it is drained shortly. The current of electricity can only travel so far, so some of that water will be charged with electricity, whilst other parts you could probably drink if it were clean enough. You could take this "electrified" ki as the ki that showed up in Buff Buu, phasing Buu through a sort of "supercharged" state if but for a few short moments. Or, you could view it the opposite. The electrifying part as damaging, and detrimental, once washed out, allowing a temporary boost in power, until the rest of the usable ki drains out with it. Their were different types of ki in Buu, beneficial and detrimental. I find it perfectly logical that he would recieve a boost of strength at some point during this breakdown greater than the starting point and the end product.Magneto wrote:
Not in this case since the power actually increased . You can`t increase power with something you don`t have .It matters a lot. I think it's highly illogical that all the ki within him vanishes/drains out instantly (regardless of a long lasting transformation). When you pull the stopper out of a tub full of water, it doesn't instantly blast down the drain with extreme speed and force. The Ki drained out, some of it was weaker, some of it was stronger. Everthing drained out, and Buu's body changed in accordance to that.
Not needing somebody else and somebody else not being able to fight Kid Buu are 2 different things . If Vegeta truly would have meant only for that moment , then he would have said something like "Now that Gohan and Gotenks are dead , you are the only one who can fight him" but he didn`t .If they had no desire to involve anyone else at that point (or need, from Vegeta's perspective at the time), it wouldn't have even mattered. At that point in time, Goku was the only one who could beat him...because, at that point in time, he was the only one stronger than Buu. There's no need to consider the power's of dead men theoretically, in such a statement regardless of the possibility of ressurection, when at that point in time they are dead. That statement does not have any need to involve them. It could just as easily, and probably was, as statement concerned with the hear and now.
I asked 3 persons who speak the Japanese language , I`ve myself used 2 translators , and I`ve also checked 4 mangas .I made a slight error, here. If you want to get really literal on this point, the word translates directly to neither "or" nor "and". You, in turn, appear to have used a babelfish translation, or some other internet website/text translator, which is one of the single worst sources I could possibly think to rely on. If someone else translated it for you, they probably used one. If they say they didn't, they're probably lying, because I get the same results on babelfish. I've done my homework, and I've got a Japanese - English dictionary right next to me. I can translate again and break it down this time if you or anyone else can get me the Romaji so that I can just look it up in a few minutes. It's in Katakana right now, and I still need to cross refference a lot of different sources to get something clearly accurate on the non-romanized characters.
EDIT: I checked up on it. The term in question, "ya" can be used to mean and as well as or, depending on the character(s) used. In this instance, it is neither "and" nor is it "or". As has been said by Mystery Person X, the particle や (ya), not only doesn't mean "and", but isn't even as strong as definitely one or the other - what he's talking about is someone, with Gohan and Gotenks as two possible examples.
1.The Viz Manga , the one that most people on the forums go about , which is the official manga says Gohan and Gotenks .
2.The French Manga ,which is again official says Gohan and Gotenks:
http://img361.imageshack.us/my.php?image=frenchfq4.png
3.The Spanish Manga also says Gohan and Gotenks :
http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spanishkl4.png
4.The Italian Manga also says Gohan and Gotenks :
http://img168.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... 081wd2.jpg
I`ve checked 2 different dictionaries (one is an online one , and the other is a program for translating)
The first one : http://img508.imageshack.us/my.php?imag ... torzy7.png
The second one :
http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image ... torlm9.png
So 3 official mangas (not so sure about the spanish one) , 3 japanese speakers and 2 japanese dictionaries all say the same thing , yet you say different .
There`s a difference between a flea and a candy and there`s also a huge difference between Vegeto & Goku . And no , Goku didn`t state that he was stronger than them , in the Japanese manga he says that he is too strong , not that he is stronger than them . (the literal translation is "His strength doesn`t serve us at all" . And if you`re about to fight somebody inside his own body , and even worse , a person who can regenerate (And buu could most likely regenerate inside his own body since all the enviorment was practically him) , then it`s only normal to panic like they did . But even in those conditions , Goku insinuated that they will beat him and find an exit (Why exactly would he question Shin Buu , when it was obvious ?) .If their power levels didn't weaken, there's no reason to assume that size made that much of a difference. Vegetto certainly didn't have much trouble as a coffee drop (in fact, it was even more difficult because Buu couldn't attack him), and Goku had blatantly stated that he was still stronger than either of them...so if their power levels didin't drop, and Shin Buu is still stronger than either of them, then Shin Buu>>>Goku>>>Chibi Buu. Further, Goku ends off by emphasizing to Vegeta not simply the point that they would fail to destroy him if they had gone out in an unfused state, but that they would both be killed. Goku had never insinuated that he could win either...he recognized the fact, and questioned Shin Buu on it, and to me he looked quite aggrevated. We've never been shown that Shin Buu has any extra advantages within his own body other than the ability to move freely through it, and such has never been hinted at. It doesn't seem rational to me to assume that he probably did regardless, simply for the sake of one scenario becoming more plausible in that instance. And if I had a power level marginally higher than my opponent's, I wouldn't be too worried about the safety of my own life, regardless of something like stature.
Since 3 official mangas , all translated by professionals and 2 dictionaries say the same thing , I don`t really care what he says .I stand fully behind what Mystery Person X said. That's how I take what Goku said anyway.
It wasn`t a question , he was actually insinuating that`s what they`ll do . Why would he ask Boo that , when it was obvious ?I hope you don't mind me answering this one too. Goku wasn't saying to Boo "We'll beat you then find a way out." With a look of extreme discomfort on his face and sweat on his head he said something along the lines of "So...we have to beat you first...?" and this was said as if these were the lest words he'd ever say. That's my point of view anyway. And Vegeta didn't appear to have confidence in Goku either. If he did I'm sure he'd let him fight, but instead he went for door #2: pulling Boo's pod.
I`m feeling better , besides I`m not going to highschool so I have time on my hand .Hey, take it easy man. I don't want you to get worse.
Good Boo is an amalgam of both South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin so he was actually sending only one type of ki , an combination between this 2 beings`s ki . And even if a trace of Good Boo`s ki still remained inside Super Buu , which I seriously doubt , and frankly there`s no way to prove it besides speculating , then his power still shouldn`t have increased . The only effect it would have is retain his power for a while longer , not actually increase it .I'm not following your logic any more than I think you're following mine. Imagine you dropped a hairdryer into a pond, before it is drained shortly. The current of electricity can only travel so far, so some of that water will be charged with electricity, whilst other parts you could probably drink if it were clean enough. You could take this "electrified" ki as the ki that showed up in Buff Buu, phasing Buu through a sort of "supercharged" state if but for a few short moments. Or, you could view it the opposite. The electrifying part as damaging, and detrimental, once washed out, allowing a temporary boost in power, until the rest of the usable ki drains out with it. Their were different types of ki in Buu, beneficial and detrimental. I find it perfectly logical that he would recieve a boost of strength at some point during this breakdown greater than the starting point and the end product.
In his position, it wouldn't even cross my mind to say that. You can speak to the present situation without pulling in every other factor that could be theoretically thrown in to the mix, given a certain event, or set of events.
The thing is that 3 different official mangas , all translated by experts in the japanese language , all say the same thing . 3 different mangas translated by professionals . And also 2 different dictionaries . If at least one of them would have said "or" or any other word I would have probably include the possibility that it says that but all 3 of them saying the same thing , and all 3 of them being officially translated is too much .Don't take this as an offense, but I think your "native Japanese consultants" are either BS'ing about the translation, making continual errors in their own language, which I highly doubt (unless you just gave them the Romaji for "ya" which has a million different definitions, and forced em' to guess based on the context) or not Japanese. Because I don't trust them, or their work and you really couldn't blame me. Not an illogical assumption for me to make, considering my position. I have the raw of the entire last volume, the Romaji and Katana (including the full katakana phrase right here in this topic), a Japanese - English dictionary sitting beside me, and the confirmation of another member. I can give you the definition straight out of the dictionary, if you want. Their are separate characters for both the "and" and "or" meanings of "ya", and neither is used, but the particle "ya" instead. Aaaand, translators are going to substitute either "and" or "or" for the particle "ya", because you have to substitute one of them for it to appear as one word (translated straight) in the English language. Japanese is a bad language to run through a language - language translator.
Well , first of all Vegetto`s transformation into a smaller state is different than Goku`s because he was transformed into a candy while Goku`s size was reduced because of the absorption . And Vegeto being that strong could be the cause of him retaining his power , for the simple fact that he was too strong for the attack . But as I said , that`s pretty much insignificant because the statement that Goku made inside Buu isn`t because of his power , it`s because of his size . Goku stating that Boo is too strong and they will get killed if they go out like that is only true when Goku is smaller than a flea , but certainly not when they are at the same size . Here are some points to support this : If Goku truly knew that he would regain his size once exiting Super Buu`s body , then why was he shocked/surprised when they exit Super Buu`s body and screams : Yes!!Everybody`s back to normal!! ? Why didn`t Goku contradict Vegeta when he said they won`t need the potara once saving everybody , when he already knew the power that Super Buu had ? Why would Vegeta want to go outside if Super Buu was that strong , that he would beat even Goku according to you , when Vegeta witnessed Super Buu`s power also ? This pretty much shows that there`s a varible brought in , that being their size .Vegetto stated that he "kept" his strength. Being that much smaller (let alone canfy) didn't weaken him in the least, and there's no reason to believe being shrunk down from there to flea size would be any different. Vegetto being stronger than Goku doesn't merit the assumption that he's somehow immune to the process of ki decreasing in proportion to size...or even with size at all. Goku stating that Shin Buu will kill them if they exit still stands as a testimony to the difference in their power. Being "too strong", as in "too strong" for them certainly indicates to me that Chibi Buu is simply "too weak" in comparison. And further, if you beat the embodiment of Buu's conciousness, I'd think that would be pretty bad for Buu. And again, Goku hardly seemed overly enthusiastic about the thought of having to fight Shin Buu...and being not a question (if but for nothing more than to confirm his fading hope), why the question mark?
And it's a correct translation. But the Japanese is still somewhat vague. Japanese is sometimes hard to translate into English precisely, and translators have to make decisions about how to get the most information across. In this case, a nuance was lost.Magneto wrote:The thing is that 3 different official mangas , all translated by experts in the japanese language , all say the same thing . 3 different mangas translated by professionals .
...then they would have been decent dictionaries. Which dictionaries did you use again? I'm too lazy to check the thread. Note: Online translation sites are not dictionaries.And also 2 different dictionaries . If at least one of them would have said "or" or any other word
But it is clear he is a fluent Japanese speaking person too. So I doubt anyone can simple "blow him off."Magneto wrote:Since 3 official mangas, all translated by professionals and 2 dictionaries say the same thing, I don't really care what he says.
It's the same as if I told someone I know they killed someone and they reply, "I killed someone?" They're not implying they killed someone, but asking a question. Again, his face shows a great deal of discomfort as if he didn't want to do it. I'll try to get a scan later.It wasn't a question, he was actually insinuating that's what they'll do. Why would he ask Boo that, when it was obvious?
Glad you're feeling better. What's keeping you from school? I've had the day off today too, although I hadn't checked up on any of the forums I attend until just now.Magneto wrote:Since 3 official mangas , all translated by professionals and 2 dictionaries say the same thing , I don`t really care what he says .I stand fully behind what Mystery Person X said. That's how I take what Goku said anyway.
It wasn`t a question , he was actually insinuating that`s what they`ll do . Why would he ask Boo that , when it was obvious ?I hope you don't mind me answering this one too. Goku wasn't saying to Boo "We'll beat you then find a way out." With a look of extreme discomfort on his face and sweat on his head he said something along the lines of "So...we have to beat you first...?" and this was said as if these were the lest words he'd ever say. That's my point of view anyway. And Vegeta didn't appear to have confidence in Goku either. If he did I'm sure he'd let him fight, but instead he went for door #2: pulling Boo's pod.
I`m feeling better , besides I`m not going to highschool so I have time on my hand .Hey, take it easy man. I don't want you to get worse.
Good Boo is an amalgam of both South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin so he was actually sending only one type of ki , an combination between this 2 beings`s ki . And even if a trace of Good Boo`s ki still remained inside Super Buu , which I seriously doubt , and frankly there`s no way to prove it besides speculating , then his power still shouldn`t have increased . The only effect it would have is retain his power for a while longer , not actually increase it .I'm not following your logic any more than I think you're following mine. Imagine you dropped a hairdryer into a pond, before it is drained shortly. The current of electricity can only travel so far, so some of that water will be charged with electricity, whilst other parts you could probably drink if it were clean enough. You could take this "electrified" ki as the ki that showed up in Buff Buu, phasing Buu through a sort of "supercharged" state if but for a few short moments. Or, you could view it the opposite. The electrifying part as damaging, and detrimental, once washed out, allowing a temporary boost in power, until the rest of the usable ki drains out with it. Their were different types of ki in Buu, beneficial and detrimental. I find it perfectly logical that he would recieve a boost of strength at some point during this breakdown greater than the starting point and the end product.
In his position, it wouldn't even cross my mind to say that. You can speak to the present situation without pulling in every other factor that could be theoretically thrown in to the mix, given a certain event, or set of events.
The thing is that 3 different official mangas , all translated by experts in the japanese language , all say the same thing . 3 different mangas translated by professionals . And also 2 different dictionaries . If at least one of them would have said "or" or any other word I would have probably include the possibility that it says that but all 3 of them saying the same thing , and all 3 of them being officially translated is too much .Don't take this as an offense, but I think your "native Japanese consultants" are either BS'ing about the translation, making continual errors in their own language, which I highly doubt (unless you just gave them the Romaji for "ya" which has a million different definitions, and forced em' to guess based on the context) or not Japanese. Because I don't trust them, or their work and you really couldn't blame me. Not an illogical assumption for me to make, considering my position. I have the raw of the entire last volume, the Romaji and Katana (including the full katakana phrase right here in this topic), a Japanese - English dictionary sitting beside me, and the confirmation of another member. I can give you the definition straight out of the dictionary, if you want. Their are separate characters for both the "and" and "or" meanings of "ya", and neither is used, but the particle "ya" instead. Aaaand, translators are going to substitute either "and" or "or" for the particle "ya", because you have to substitute one of them for it to appear as one word (translated straight) in the English language. Japanese is a bad language to run through a language - language translator.
Well , first of all Vegetto`s transformation into a smaller state is different than Goku`s because he was transformed into a candy while Goku`s size was reduced because of the absorption . And Vegeto being that strong could be the cause of him retaining his power , for the simple fact that he was too strong for the attack . But as I said , that`s pretty much insignificant because the statement that Goku made inside Buu isn`t because of his power , it`s because of his size . Goku stating that Boo is too strong and they will get killed if they go out like that is only true when Goku is smaller than a flea , but certainly not when they are at the same size . Here are some points to support this : If Goku truly knew that he would regain his size once exiting Super Buu`s body , then why was he shocked/surprised when they exit Super Buu`s body and screams : Yes!!Everybody`s back to normal!! ? Why didn`t Goku contradict Vegeta when he said they won`t need the potara once saving everybody , when he already knew the power that Super Buu had ? Why would Vegeta want to go outside if Super Buu was that strong , that he would beat even Goku according to you , when Vegeta witnessed Super Buu`s power also ? This pretty much shows that there`s a varible brought in , that being their size .Vegetto stated that he "kept" his strength. Being that much smaller (let alone canfy) didn't weaken him in the least, and there's no reason to believe being shrunk down from there to flea size would be any different. Vegetto being stronger than Goku doesn't merit the assumption that he's somehow immune to the process of ki decreasing in proportion to size...or even with size at all. Goku stating that Shin Buu will kill them if they exit still stands as a testimony to the difference in their power. Being "too strong", as in "too strong" for them certainly indicates to me that Chibi Buu is simply "too weak" in comparison. And further, if you beat the embodiment of Buu's conciousness, I'd think that would be pretty bad for Buu. And again, Goku hardly seemed overly enthusiastic about the thought of having to fight Shin Buu...and being not a question (if but for nothing more than to confirm his fading hope), why the question mark?
But it is clear he is a fluent Japanese speaking person too.
I'm not fluent
You`re example is one of the worst . And in this case , there`s really no need for a question . Why exactly would he do that ? Why would he ask something obvious , if not for showing that it`s something they will do ?It's the same as if I told someone I know they killed someone and they reply, "I killed someone?" They're not implying they killed someone, but asking a question. Again, his face shows a great deal of discomfort as if he didn't want to do it. I'll try to get a scan later.
Well I went to the doctor because I was feeling bad and I could barely sleep at night , so that`s pretty much the reason I missed school .Glad you're feeling better. What's keeping you from school? I've had the day off today too, although I hadn't checked up on any of the forums I attend until just now.
It makes sense if Buff Buu appears even if only Kid Buu`s ki was present because it furher sustains the fact that South Kaioshin couldn`t have made him stronger thus Kid Buu`s ki was only necessary . And as I said , Good Boo was an amalgam of South Kaioshin and Dai Kaioshin so if ki from him would have still remained for some time on Super Buu , eventough I seriously doubt that and it`s just a speculation , it couldn`t have made Super Buu stronger but only sustain his power for a time until all the remaining traces disspear .It was a fairly slow transformation from Shin Buu to Chibi Buu, and it doesn't make much sense that Buff Buu would even appear if only by Chibi Buu's own ki, being that if his own ki remains alone, he should be....Chibi Buu. All that it would require to have passed through a stronger form first would be for the powerful, or "beneficial" ki to have remained longer than the detrimental ki. As it washed out and vanished, it simply cleared out some of the "junk" before all of it drained out all togethe
You know , I actually asked the japanese guy to translate the whole sentence for me . And here`s what I got : Ok , I got it ! Are you going to restore Gohan and Gotenks back to life again so they can fight ? . They they shows that it reffered to both of them fighting thus the "ya" symbol actually means [and] in this case . I can`t belive this was actually so simple lol"And" isn't an incorrect translation. Neither would "or" be. If you translate that character to one word, you have to substitute it for one of those words. The point is, that neither "and" nor "or" is more or less correct translation to one word of this particular character "ya", but to mean exclusively "and" or "or" their are two entirely different characters. The character used here is the particle "ya", different than both. If I were to phrase it in a way that I think I could best express it in English...maybe "Gohan, perhaps Gotenks", "Gohan, maybe Gotenks", "Gohan, possibly Gotenks", etc. It's something that could mean either one, or both.
It`s not the same as wiping out a solar system or a planet because in this case , the enemy can actually regenerate and avoid the blast . And it also takes some time in order for Goku to charge a very huge blast compared to his size , and what do you think Super Buu would do in that time ? Besides , his SSJ3 holds up for a very short time . And let`s also not forget the fact that they still had Gohan & the others to protect .I don't believe that the size matters, at all. If you are weaker, you have a lower power level. If your size makes you weaker, you have a weaker power level in accordance to that. Your power level is your strength, the measurement of your ability to cause damage. What you are saying, to me, is akin to saying the SSJ2 Complete Cell couldn't actually wipe out the solar system with all of his ki, because the solar system is countless times larger than him, and infinitesimal difference. And regardless of what got him their, Vegetto was smaller. And if smaller size results in lesser strength and ability, no matter how strong you are you should not be immune to the normal process of power decreasing with size...regardless of how weak the ki was (comparitavely) in the attack that put you in that position...because Buu's henka beam turns you into candy, normally quite small, and Vegetto was evidently turned into a very small piece of candy - I see no reason to assume differently for him, which is somehow a given for anyone else. The only thing his huge level of ki would, should, and did effect was the ability to harness and use his ki in a state that normally would have made that difficult to impossible; i.e. as an otherwise inanimate object (retaining a soul of course, to make this possible for even him). If the ki of Goku and Vegeta was not weakened, then the strengths of Goku and Vegeta were not weakened - the actuall ki remaining at full not even a particulat subject of debate, the absorbed persons supplying Buu with their full ki. "Like this" could very easily refer to them being in an unfused state, and almost certainly did, fusion being mentioned in the next breath, and continually emphasized afterwards. On taking down Buu after rescuing everyone, that wouldn't quite be difficult if the "absorbee's" were their to fight, assuming one of them, generally, and two of them including use of fusion were stronger. With Vegeta intending to free them and just leave, he would die in just about any scenario now, wouldn't he?
We are talking about the manga and Kaioshin says Kid Buu is the strongest only in the anime . But yeah , Kid Buu > Gohan & Gotenks .. but he is not stronger than Super Buu w/Gohan. He is the 3rd strongest Boo after Super Buu w/Gohan and Super Buu w/Gotenks .I would have to agree with Mag on this I think that Kid buu is stronger than Super Buu .Mag has made most of the points I would have used so I will not repeat them .I also think if Gotenks or Gohan had fought Kid Buu they would have been in bother if he had used his instant trans on them.Goku could have handled this though I know this is just speculation.It could have been the way it was dubbed but last night I watched the episode in which Goku and Vegeta were given the potara for the second time (while Kid Buu was blowing up planets). In this episode the supreme kai said ,word for word,"Now that Buu is back to his original form he is STRONGER than ever".He said this after the earings were crushed by Goku and Vegeta. This is my opinion which I am entitled to.I typed this quickly as I on my work break so there is probably gram mistakes.If you are responding to this please ensure it is about my comments and not petty remarks about punctuation etc. Thank you !
