Toei play it safe with Super?

[coola]

Besides childish and over the top characters. One of my biggest complaints with Super and Toei, is that it seem to be afraid to go out from comfort zone, besides Battle Of Gods, every new material is rehash of old stuff, or fanfiction coming to live, Universe 6 characters were great, but...it was yet another Tenkaichi Budokai, Copy Vegeta fight took place in almost exact same area as first Goku and Vegeta fight. GT is over 15 years old, and even then, ideas were mostly great, but execution was poor. I don't know if Toei is afraid to try something new, but so far, i feel like I'm watching fanfiction/Z rehash.

[ekrolo2]

I think a lot of it can be attributed to Toriyama too: the guy spent whatever he had left to say character wise with Battle of Gods and hasn't done anything worthwhile since in that department. I imagine there are some guys in Toei who are making these notes or scripts of Toriyama's into episodes might actually have some good concepts and ideas, but unlike GT, they can't really do anything with them because Toriyama's lead must be followed. GT didn't have this and that's why you got stuff like Baby and the Shadow Dragons, if Toriyama ran GT, no way in hell would either of that would've happened.

I know its easy to smash Toei to bits whenever something goes wrong but I honestly think Toriyama is a serious part of the problem story wise with Super. The guy clearly has nothing of value left to say about this universe besides giving them more guys to fight.

[coola]

Question is, how much Toriyama had control over Super? Or he just provide ideas, and Toei use them as they want? Don't think he have that much power over it, as Naoko Takeuchi with Sailor Moon (Who even choose actresses for musicals)

[ekrolo2]

Question is, how much Toriyama had control over Super? Or he just provide ideas, and Toei use them as they want? Don't think he have that much power over it, as Naoko Takeuchi with Sailor Moon (Who even choose actresses for musicals)

He certainly doesn't micro-manage it but provide outlines for how a story happens. The Goku vs Hit fight is probably a good example of this, he probably just wrote they fight and let the guys who actually make the stuff decide how it happens. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of guys felt intimidated or were actively discouraged from pursuing their own possible story ideas that could interfere with what Toriyama has in mind. Hence why I think we'd potentially see some cooler concepts and better character usage in a scenario where Toriyama left Super.

[LightBing]

Question is, how much Toriyama had control over Super? Or he just provide ideas, and Toei use them as they want? Don't think he have that much power over it, as Naoko Takeuchi with Sailor Moon (Who even choose actresses for musicals)

He certainly doesn't micro-manage it but provide outlines for how a story happens. The Goku vs Hit fight is probably a good example of this, he probably just wrote they fight and let the guys who actually make the stuff decide how it happens. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of guys felt intimidated or were actively discouraged from pursuing their own possible story ideas that could interfere with what Toriyama has in mind. Hence why I think we'd potentially see some cooler concepts and better character usage in a scenario where Toriyama left Super.

I disagree, based on the evidence presented so far. The apparent anime-only Copy Vegeta arc is pretty uninspired, they shouldn't be that hold down unless they wanted to age characters or give them new transformations. Plus, they apparently are free to make the fight's(results and details notwithstanding), the difference between manga and anime is proof of this.
Toyotarõ made a very entertaining gag fight between Vegeta and Magetta, Toei went full nostalgia mode. Stuff like this clearly shows them playing it safe and makes me doubt their ability to create interesting content on their own.

Not to say that if given time and opportunity to make an arc from scratch without any obligations, they couldn't pull of something. But yeah, Copy Vegeta arc and other anime exclusive content was weak. With the exception of slice-of-life material.

The direction they were going with Tagoma was actually decent, before destroying it completely with Ginyu.

[ekrolo2]

Question is, how much Toriyama had control over Super? Or he just provide ideas, and Toei use them as they want? Don't think he have that much power over it, as Naoko Takeuchi with Sailor Moon (Who even choose actresses for musicals)

He certainly doesn't micro-manage it but provide outlines for how a story happens. The Goku vs Hit fight is probably a good example of this, he probably just wrote they fight and let the guys who actually make the stuff decide how it happens. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of guys felt intimidated or were actively discouraged from pursuing their own possible story ideas that could interfere with what Toriyama has in mind. Hence why I think we'd potentially see some cooler concepts and better character usage in a scenario where Toriyama left Super.

I disagree, based on the evidence presented so far. The apparent anime-only Copy Vegeta arc is pretty uninspired, they shouldn't be that hold down unless they wanted to age characters or give them new transformations. Plus, they apparently are free to make the fight's(results and details notwithstanding), the difference between manga and anime is proof of this.
Toyotarõ made a very entertaining gag fight between Vegeta and Magetta, Toei went full nostalgia mode. Stuff like this clearly shows them playing it safe and makes me doubt their ability to create interesting content on their own.

Not to say that if given time and opportunity to make an arc from scratch without any obligations, they couldn't pull of something. But yeah, Copy Vegeta arc and other anime exclusive content was weak. With the exception of slice-of-life material.

The direction they were going with Tagoma was actually decent, before destroying it completely with Ginyu.

The Copy-Vegeta thing is actually a decent concept for an arc but I think it suffered more from the fact everyone wanted it done so Goku Blacks arc can start rather give it focus. After all, Black is Toriyama material and they know people get hard-ons if Toriyama so much as sneezes at something.

But if we ultimately have to choose between a GT situation of great concepts and okay execution or Toriyama phoning it in.... I'll take the GT route please.

[Lord Beerus]

The Copy-Vegeta thing is actually a decent concept for an arc but I think it suffered more from the fact everyone wanted it done so Goku Blacks arc can start rather give it focus. After all, Black is Toriyama material and they know people get hard-ons if Toriyama so much as sneezes at something.

But if we ultimately have to choose between a GT situation of great concepts and okay execution or Toriyama phoning it in.... I'll take the GT route please.

Describing the execution of the great concepts GT had as "okay" is being very generous. GT totally wasted 17 coming back, did nothing with Majin Boo and Oob fusing and royally fumbled the ingenuous idea of the Shadow Dragons. I did appreciate how well Baby tied into the Saiyan/Tuffle lore of the anime but that ultimately just turned into the Saiyan arc 2.0.

In regards to Toei playing it safe with Super... I think with how GT was received, Toei realised that drastic changes to the plot or how character looked never go down that well with the core fanbase in Japan, the fanbase that ultimately matters to most. In a nutshell, fans in Japan ultimately prefer to have new content but not to the degree where the status quo is radically changed. i.e. characters looking old, major characters no longer fighting, popular character getting killed off for real etc. I think this would mean that Super is likely going to stay in the 10 year gap for the foreseeable future which would be a shame, but, that doesn't mean good plots can't be churned out from that period. It just means that the stakes and tension will never be a high as it can be as it was in DB, Z or even GT, because you ultimately know that none of the main characters will be killed off for real.

[ekrolo2]

The Copy-Vegeta thing is actually a decent concept for an arc but I think it suffered more from the fact everyone wanted it done so Goku Blacks arc can start rather give it focus. After all, Black is Toriyama material and they know people get hard-ons if Toriyama so much as sneezes at something.

But if we ultimately have to choose between a GT situation of great concepts and okay execution or Toriyama phoning it in.... I'll take the GT route please.

Describing the exception of the great concepts GT had as "okay" is being very generous. GT totally wasted 17 coming back, did nothing with Majin Boo and Oob fusing and royally fumbled the ingenuous idea of the Shadow Dragons. I did appreciate how well Baby tied into the Saiyan/Tuffle lore of the anime but that ultimately just turned into the Saiyan arc 2.0.

In regards to Toei playing it safe with Super... I think with how GT was received, Toei realised that drastic changes to the plot or how character looked never go down that well with the core fanbase in Japan, the fanbase that ultimately matters to most. In a nutshell, fans in Japan ultimately prefer to have new content but not to the degree where the status quo is radically changed. i.e. characters looking old, major characters no longer fighting, popular character getting killed off for real etc. I think this would mean that Super is likely going to stay in the 10 year gap for the foreseeable future which would be a shame, but, that doesn't mean good plots can't be churned out from that period. It just means that the stakes and tension will never be a high as it can be as it was in DB, Z or even GT, because you ultimately know that none of the main characters will be killed off for real.

I can somewhat agree on Super 17 but I think the Shadow Dragon arc really works by the end when you have Nuova & Eis interacting with Goku and seeing Vegeta willing to sacrifice himself so the others can escape the planet and avenge him and Goku and with the ending of Goku leaving with Shenron. Oob I'm not sorry about because I just didn't really care for that whole idea even on an inception level.

I can somewhat understand the logic behind playing it safe with Super but honestly, Battle of Gods showed us how you can stick to the formula and still have interesting things to say about your characters and universe. A character examination that came from a non-Toriyama guy. Maybe that's what we need, a sort of compromise so we can get people willing to take some risks with Toriyama filtering some of that stuff through so the Japanese fanbase doesn't lose it shit because *le gasp* Dragon Ball wants to not be the middle of the road shit it currently is with Super.

[DBZ Macky]

I wonder if tying in the EoZ ending could cause them problems for exploring more options and killing off or reintroducing major characters.

[Hellspawn28]

I won't mind the Copy Vegeta arc had they just use Gryll as the main villain. Copy Vegeta was just "Vegeta's body being used from another being" that has been done before with Majin Vegeta and Bebi Vegeta. With Gryll, he looked cool and could have been a decent villain. For Super, I think they are playing it safe by doing it in the 10 time gap between Majin Buu and the end of DBZ because the characters are in their prime ages and the character designs from that era are very popular. Meaning it that it's easier for them to market things. If the cast is too old, fans probably won't like it.

I didn't mind having another Tenkachi Budokai because tournaments are my favorite part of the series and with the Champa saga, we got a tournament that was finished and the good guys won. Everyone thought the tournament would not be finished and Universe 7 would lose.

[sintzu]

I think a lot of it can be attributed to Toriyama too: the guy spent whatever he had left to say character wise with Battle of Gods and hasn't done anything worthwhile since in that department.

I know its easy to smash Toei to bits whenever something goes wrong but I honestly think Toriyama is a serious part of the problem story wise with Super.

The guy clearly has nothing of value left to say about this universe besides giving them more guys to fight.

Another thing BOG had that everything after didn't is another writer working with him.

They're both a major problem, Toei's writing is a complete mess and Toriyama's post BOG plots are severely underdeveloped.

And no one at Toei has the guts to tell him that which is also a major problem.

[Hellspawn28]

Toei started Super too soon. Had they start in January with the Champa saga, Super would be much better. Toei could have Digimon Adventure Tri be use for Kai's time slot until January.

[Sonicjamareiz]

Was the Champa arc really all Toei had at the time? Thats probably the reason why Toei use the BoG and RoF arcs only to save time on coming up with a new arc(Future Trunks arc). So Toei/Tori is probably coming up with as the Champa arc and Future Trunks arc continues. Why is everything in Super so clutch... sorry if my post doesn't make any sense I'm kinda under the influence.

[coola]

With reveal of [spoiler]female Saiyan, who, after turning into LSSJ, look exactly like Broly[/spoiler] I'm now convinced Toei/Toriyama like to rehash old ideas, at this point, I'm now convinced that Garlic Jr. will return at one point

[dbs fanboy]

With reveal of [spoiler]female Saiyan, who, after turning into LSSJ, look exactly like Broly[/spoiler] I'm now convinced Toei/Toriyama like to rehash old ideas, at this point, I'm now convinced that Garlic Jr. will return at one point

Yeah but at the same time we still get new stuff such as the gods, time rings and all this shit. I think that they like to mix old things with new things (like mising Trunk's story with other uuniverse) and i'm actually ok with that (unless it ends up being bad, like bringing back Freeza, or the copy Vegeta fight being a ripoff of Goku vs majin Vegeta)

[ekrolo2]

With reveal of [spoiler]female Saiyan, who, after turning into LSSJ, look exactly like Broly[/spoiler] I'm now convinced Toei/Toriyama like to rehash old ideas, at this point, I'm now convinced that Garlic Jr. will return at one point

It's proven how creatively dead it is so this and any other number of things can happen. Once Toriyama fully leaves I expect more numbered Super Saiyan forms to start shoving up.

[sintzu]

With reveal of [spoiler]female Saiyan, who, after turning into LSSJ, look exactly like Broly[/spoiler] I'm now convinced Toei/Toriyama like to rehash old ideas, at this point, I'm now convinced that Garlic Jr. will return at one point

Yeah but at the same time we still get new stuff such as the gods, time rings and all this shit. I think that they like to mix old things with new things (like mising Trunk's story with other uuniverse) and i'm actually ok with that (unless it ends up being bad, like bringing back Freeza, or the copy Vegeta fight being a ripoff of Goku vs majin Vegeta)

It seems like they want to keep introducing new ideas but they also want to bring back old concepts and fan favorites as a saftey net.

[Saturnine]

I don't think it's that bad. The worldbuilding has been amazing, and the expansion to 12 universes and beyond was a great move.

As for rehashing... GT rehashed Toei's original material and tropes found there many times (such as Kamehamehaing somebody into the Sun or an outbreak from Hell), while Super rehashes Toriyama's ideas instead. It's clear one is going to be better than the other...

[Cipher]

This is by far my biggest misgiving with Super.

It's in this odd spot where we get Toriyama being his typical subversive self, but even that feels hamstrung by the requirement everything fit within a predetermined time-skip in the original material (good-bye substantial character growth). Superficially, it feels more subversive and daring than, say, GT, with Toriyama providing his usual quirks. In execution, especially with its episode-by-episode scripts playing into predictable non-Toriyama-esque comedy beats and easy distillations of characters, feels a lot more calculated and safe. The entire premise of resurrecting a completed series twenty years later for a second TV run does, of course, feel a little unavoidably cynical. This isn't an author and editor taking a risk on a new idea, trying to figure it out as they go.

It's managed to shake this feeling only a handful of times for me. The end of the Trunks arc was really promising, as is direct fanbase-lampooning like our new Broli. Those feel like there's a bit of verve behind them. I guess I just have to keep hoping Toriyama pushes truly unexpected stuff through, and I mean that other than in terms of usually quirky designs.

[DBZAOTA482]

Toei plays it safe with Super because Toriyama himself plays it safe with Dragon Ball nowadays. The last 2 movies have been more within his comfort zone than the original series was... Toriyama back then was more willing to go above and beyond to provide an entertaining story for young boys with surprisingly good results leading to one of the most popular and influential media franchises ever, even though serious stories was never really his thing.