Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character

[ABED]

Most people understand that it was a retcon, but it doesn't contradict anyone's character. THAT is the difference.

So you're saying that if a retcon changes someone's character, we should just say, "Well it's a retcon" each time? We're just going to ignore what it did to the character? Hey, guess what, if it changes the character, it's a bad retcon... but that doesn't change the fact that the character proceeded in such a way. If we're watching Dragon Ball Z and we're really into it, we can't start going, "Oh, well that's different... probably a retcon." No, you keep going on with the story. So in the story, that's what happened with Goku's character. If you're watching an episode of Friends and you see that suddenly in one episode, Joey bangs Monica, you can't say "Well that's uncharacteristic... The writer probably had a weird day." No, you go "OH MY GOD!" or whatever your reaction would be.

Huh? React however you want, but at least acknowledge that if the retcon causes an inconsistency in a character, it's much worse than if the retcon changes an event. I'm not going to hold it against Goku for acting in a way that's inconsistent with his character because Toriyama made a blunder in his plotting.

If Joey bangs Monica, that wouldn't be out of character if she and Chandler aren't together. She had a crush on him once upon a time. If they got together when Chandler and Monica were a couple, I would hold it against the writers for being inconsistent with Joey's character. He doesn't cheat on his friends. And who says we all have to react in the same way?

[TheGreatness25]

What I'm saying is that you almost use the fact that it was a retcon as an excuse for his character. It doesn't matter what it's attributed to; that's what his character has become in the Boo arc.

When I mentioned it, you went "Well that's a retcon." And my question to you is: So what? How's that change anything?

[ABED]

What I'm saying is that you almost use the fact that it was a retcon as an excuse for his character. It doesn't matter what it's attributed to; that's what his character has become in the Boo arc.

When I mentioned it, you went "Well that's a retcon." And my question to you is: So what? How's that change anything?

It's a legit excuse. I can't blame a character for an inconsistency on the writer's behalf. The fact that it's a retcon of his character means he's not acting in character. How can I blame a character for not acting in character? It's one thing if a character makes a bad choice but it's in character. I don't have a problem pointing out Goku's recklessness in allowing the Cyborgs to be created. That's perfectly in his character to do so. It isn't bad writing.

[DBZAOTA482]

Kid and Teen is the best version of Goku. The Saiyan blood bullshit brought his character down for me.

Super's Goku is just a disgrace.

[coola]

For me, Buu Saga Goku is the worst Goku, not only he messed up, letting Buu wake up, to make Vegeta-chan happy, but have nerve to force kids to fight his battle for him, to fix mess he made, i almost hated Goku because of what he did

[ABED]

For me, Buu Saga Goku is the worst Goku, not only he messed up, letting Buu wake up, to make Vegeta-chan happy, but have nerve to force kids to fight his battle for him, to fix mess he made, i almost hated Goku because of what he did

But if it's the result of a retcon that is inconsistent with who he is, how can you hold that against Goku?

[TheGreatness25]

Because Goku's not real...

Everything that ever happens to him is written, so if I don't hold the retcon against "him," who do I hold it against? In that case, why should I hold anything against anyone in a work of fiction? How could I hold it against Joker when he kills a bunch of people? He was written that way; I should hold it against his writer.

It's a work of fiction. If he's written that way because of a bad day or a retcon or whatever the hell happens, that's who the character becomes.

[ABED]

Because Goku's not real...

Everything that ever happens to him is written, so if I don't hold the retcon against "him," who do I hold it against? In that case, why should I hold anything against anyone in a work of fiction? How could I hold it against Joker when he kills a bunch of people? He was written that way; I should hold it against his writer.

It's a work of fiction. If he's written that way because of a bad day or a retcon or whatever the hell happens, that's who the character becomes.

Yes, he's not real, hold it against the author. And no, that's not who the character becomes. If the character does something out of character then there's a problem with the writing. That pulls me out of the story. However, if the writing and the performances are so good, I can emotionally invest in the characters and their decisions. I can be disgusted by Walter White's decisions because he's in character and the writing is amazing. If Kuririn destroys the remote control, I can emotionally invest because he's in character. If Goku acts out of character or Toriyama makes a continuity error, it pulls me out of the story. That's what you are missing in all of this.

If who the character becomes is a result of bad writing, how can you invest emotionally? The character became something that he wasn't before and not because of development, but because an author didn't think the story through.

[sintzu]

Yes, he's not real, hold it against the author. And no, that's not who the character becomes.

This would apply to a very drastic change, like a character going from one extreme to the other but in Goku's case here it doesn't cause he had been developing slowly over the course of 10 years and the changes that were made to his character weren't drastic and felt natural.

[ABED]

Yes, he's not real, hold it against the author. And no, that's not who the character becomes.

This would apply to a very drastic change, like a character going from one extreme to the other but in Goku's case here it doesn't cause he had been developing slowly over the course of 10 years and the changes that were made to his character weren't drastic and felt natural.

It doesn't feel natural that in the middle of a crisis he would have a fight (which he had to be cojolled into) and then hold back to spare the feelings of an adversary especially when it wasn't a challenge and then lie about it and have someone else clean up his mess.

[sintzu]

It doesn't feel natural that in the middle of a crisis he would have a fight (which he had to be cojolled into) and then hold back to spare the feelings of an adversary

especially when it wasn't a challenge and then lie about it and have someone else clean up his mess.

He never said he did it to spare his feelings, he said he saved 3 for an emergency.

The reason he wanted them to clean up his mess was because he didn't belong there and he wanted the next generation to depend on themselves like how he wanted Gohan to depend on himself.

[ABED]

It doesn't feel natural that in the middle of a crisis he would have a fight (which he had to be cojolled into) and then hold back to spare the feelings of an adversary

especially when it wasn't a challenge and then lie about it and have someone else clean up his mess.

He never said he did it to spare his feelings, he said he saved 3 for an emergency.

The reason he wanted them to clean up his mess was because he didn't belong there and he wanted the next generation to depend on themselves like how he wanted Gohan to depend on himself.

But he created the mess and when did he ever create a mess he didn't intend to deal with? He let Piccolo and Vegeta live because HE wanted to fight them. He let Freeza live out of mercy.

[precita]

Goku actually gets character development in the Buu arc. I'm surprised people don't see this.

[ABED]

Goku actually gets character development in the Buu arc. I'm surprised people don't see this.

In what way?

[Low Tone G]

I agree, Buu saga Goku is the best version of the character. He began to grow up, and now he's a complete idiot. To mention, Buu saga Goku's body physics is also the best one in my opinion. But I liked him in Cell saga too... I always liked him in such arcs when he didn't save the day.

[TheMikado]

This is pretty much a perfect example of why DBZ was far more exceptional and even in DB.
Goku basically grows up from a aimless kid to a full on hero in the original dragonball.
In the beginning of Z we basically see Goku retired and living in peace, settled down and had a kid.
Plus he seems to deeply care about his family.
We see this extend throughout Z and into the Cell saga where he basically pins all his hopes on his only son.
Then when he dies he makes an incredibly mature decision to stay dead for the good of the Earth and they enjoy several years of peace.
In the Buu arc he is not only mindful of the destruction Vegeta causes but also acknowledges why Vegeta is on the path in the first place.
Vegeta believes evil is his source of strength and Goku needs to convince his that evil is not the only path to power otherwise he risks having Vegeta as an enemy to the world which is NOT a good idea especially if going up against Buu.
Goku also recognizes the strength of the kids, he even actually appears to have decent parenting skills in the way he compromises with Goten and Trunks.
He wants those who are alive to handle the issue of Buu, to be honest I feel the reason he really steps in is because Goku's appearance seems to have helped trigger the events.

Anyway, Super is just plain terrible in its characterization of Goku. He was much smarter and more mature than this. Its rather baffling. At least in GT he's kid sized and the stakes are never very high til baby so its much more tolerable. Super in terms of pacing, characterization, arc linking, pales in comparison to the original formula which made the series so popular in the first place.

[SSJ Human]

To me GT was when Goku's character was at its best.

He wasn't bad by any means. I can't really talk about his characterization in GT without talking about GT.

[sintzu]

Then when he dies he makes an incredibly mature decision to stay dead for the good of the Earth and they enjoy several years of peace.

Anyway, Super is just plain terrible in its characterization of Goku. He was much smarter and more mature than this. Its rather baffling.

At least in GT he's kid sized and the stakes are never very high til baby so its much more tolerable.

Super in terms of pacing, characterization, arc linking, pales in comparison to the original formula which made the series so popular in the first place.

He even told Gohan to take care of Chi Chi which shows he took his wife into account while making his decision.

Super's Goku doesn't even feel like a character anymore, all the character development he went through has been completely left behind in favor of whatever it is they're doing now.

Gt's still had a personality and feelings for others, Super's has been reduced to nothing more than a design on paper. he has so little personality I don't even know why they're bringing in Nozawa to voice him.

According to the Super "fans" it's just as good if not better and if you say otherwise then you don't know anything about the franchise.

[ABED]

all the character development he went through has been completely left behind in favor of whatever it is they're doing now.

What character development are you referring to other than him being a little smarter?

[ekrolo2]

I pretty much loathe every version of Goku after Namek with the exception of GTs.