Who has done the most damage to Dragonball?

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:41 am

He means that Toriyama meant to end DB after Freeza (or stuff along the same tangent)... I dunno where you got that gag manga stuff from.

Toriyama wanted to end it after Pilaf and after Piccolo too. Also the evil editors were responcible for the cooler parts of the Androids/Cell story. So hooray for editors.

Vegard Aune · Post by **Vegard Aune** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:58 am

Hao_Kaiser wrote:He means that Toriyama meant to end DB after Freeza (or stuff along the same tangent)... I dunno where you got that gag manga stuff from.

Yeah, and then again at the end of the Cell Game, which would have made a perfect ending in my opinion, as that one can actually be considered an ending as it is now, while the Freeza-saga would have to be rewritten so everyone dies, which would not make a very good ending, in my opinion.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:01 am

Vegard Aune wrote:
Hao_Kaiser wrote:He means that Toriyama meant to end DB after Freeza (or stuff along the same tangent)... I dunno where you got that gag manga stuff from.
Yeah, and then again at the end of the Cell Game, which would have made a perfect ending in my opinion, as that one can actually be considered an ending as it is now, while the Freeza-saga would have to be rewritten so everyone dies, which would not make a very good ending, in my opinion.

Problems with the Cell Games ending:

1. Still has the "everybody's a SUPAA SIAJIN!!!11!" sillyness.
2. Gohan is the hero.

Vegard Aune · Post by **Vegard Aune** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:07 am

Rocketman wrote:
Vegard Aune wrote:
Hao_Kaiser wrote:He means that Toriyama meant to end DB after Freeza (or stuff along the same tangent)... I dunno where you got that gag manga stuff from.
Yeah, and then again at the end of the Cell Game, which would have made a perfect ending in my opinion, as that one can actually be considered an ending as it is now, while the Freeza-saga would have to be rewritten so everyone dies, which would not make a very good ending, in my opinion.
Problems with the Cell Games ending:

1. Still has the "everybody's a SUPAA SIAJIN!!!11!" sillyness.
2. Gohan is the hero.

1. Yeah, the whole "Goku is the only Super Saiyan" thing would have been a good thing about ending it with Freeza, and I'll agree that it's overused after that, but I could live with that.
2. You really don't like Gohan, do you? Wasn't it pretty clear that Toriyama WANTED Gohan to be the hero? I think having someone other than Goku saving the world in the end would be a good thing, really.

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:11 am

Vegard Aune wrote:2. You really don't like Gohan, do you? Wasn't it pretty clear that Toriyama WANTED Gohan to be the hero? I think having someone other than Goku saving the world in the end would be a good thing, really.

I don't like Gohan being the hero. And if someone else has to save the world, have it be Piccolo or Vegeta.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:14 am

The thing that I liked the most out of the Cell Saga was the fact that SSjs didn't mean anything (towards the end), but not to the point of Trunks and Goten killing the form. Every SSj was bitched at one point or another and Gohan, who was the least likely candidate to be the victor, was the victor.

The end of the Cell Saga left everything complete where ending it with Freeza would make it seem like a dark ending (unless they ended it with Goku saying he'd return on his own), ending it with Buu would be okay but after seeing what happens to the characters in GT, its a bust. Besides, the Cell Game was the last real time that all of the heroes fought, it reminds me of Movie 3.

-Rick

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:20 pm

Ending it at the Cell Games would not have worked. There were several characters whose stories were not finished. It was fine as an ending point for Trunks, but Gohan, Vegeta and Kuririn's stories needed to be completed.

Sebastian (SB) · Post by **Sebastian (SB)** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:11 pm

Victator Supreme wrote:Ending it at the Cell Games would not have worked. There were several characters whose stories were not finished. It was fine as an ending point for Trunks, but Gohan, Vegeta and Kuririn's stories needed to be completed.

Agreed. That's why we have Buu come into play, while not such a dynamic ending, it definitely did some completion on Vegeta's part.

Synapse · Post by **Synapse** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:13 pm

Toriyama was seriously planning to end it at the Freeza saga? Damn, that would only make DBZ 107 episodes. How would we find out what happened to Goku?

The decision to lengthen the series was good in my opinion, but if they switched the Freeza and Majin Buu sagas, I wouldn't mind that, since Freeza is a villain with more history and connection to Goku than Buu. Of course, they would have had to make certain changes

(see my thread on the Freeza saga).

SatoSky · Post by **SatoSky** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:31 pm

Synapse wrote:Toriyama was seriously planning to end it at the Freeza saga? Damn, that would only make DBZ 107 episodes. How would we find out what happened to Goku?

The decision to lengthen the series was good in my opinion, but if they switched the Freeza and Majin Buu sagas, I wouldn't mind that, since Freeza is a villain with more history and connection to Goku than Buu. Of course, they would have had to make certain changes (see my thread on the Freeza saga).

Goku was supposed to die at the end of the Freeza saga as well.

Synapse · Post by **Synapse** » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:28 pm

Ohhh

That's stupid. I'd take the GT ending over that anticlimatic crap any day.

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:50 am

Synapse wrote:Ohhh

That's stupid. I'd take the GT ending over that anticlimatic crap any day.

Huh? First off, if it ended at the Freeza arc it would have been very different from how we know it today (obviously they wouldn't all go back to Earth and play mini-putt with the Namekians or whatever the fuck). I won't go into details since it's all just speculation, but looking at how the story was crafted up until Saichourou's revival, it's pretty obvious how things would have played out.

Second, I don't know how you can call the Freeza arc anticlimactic. It's clearly the climax of the entire series, and it actually wraps up all the storylines very neatly (if ended properly). The events from DBZ as early as the arrival of Raditz all build up to the legendary Saiya-jin and the final showdown with Freeza. The story during this time is brilliantly crafted, something which cannot be said of later DBZ arcs, and certainly not of GT.

(Sorry about the rant)

Also, I'll just say that Toei sucks for many reasons, but I don't consider filler one of them (excluding GT). It was necessary, just accept it.

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 2:18 am

The Cell Saga was great. It's what got me into the show; for me, Freeza seemed to be background history to Cell and Buu.

nathantheguitarist · Post by **nathantheguitarist** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:13 am

The way the Freeza Saga was going was pure genius. Vegeta died, Piccolo died, the Namekians died, Goku finishes off Freeza, and then Namek goes "boom" while Goku was still there.

It would have made the ending a hell of a lot more bigger and shocking.

But I still like the fact that it went on.

Vhanos · Post by **Vhanos** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 5:25 am

I thought the buu saga could have been the best place to end the entire thing. Goku proving his heroicness again and finally killing the main villain. But the ending with him flying off with Ubuu didn't compliment it.

Synapse · Post by **Synapse** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:33 pm

DBW wrote:Second, I don't know how you can call the Freeza arc anticlimactic. It's clearly the climax of the entire series, and it actually wraps up all the storylines very neatly (if ended properly). The events from DBZ as early as the arrival of Raditz all build up to the legendary Saiya-jin and the final showdown with Freeza. The story during this time is brilliantly crafted, something which cannot be said of later DBZ arcs, and certainly not of GT.

Naw, of course it was the climax of the whole series. I mean, Goku's arrival on Earth, everyone he'd met, especially Vegeta, Radditz, and Nappa, and his need to avenge his father all revolved around Freeza, which is why I said I wouldn't have minded the Freeza arc switching places with the Buu arc, making Freeza a little more powerful of course.

However, Goku dying? That's pretty anticlimactic. I mean, the series ending with everyone mourning and Gohan never really spending enough time with his dad wouldn't have been too favorable. If everyone was older and Goku died, it would be a different story, but ending after Freeza would have left a lot to be desired.

Speaking of which, why did Toriyama end the manga after DBZ? I mean, didn't he consider that the reader was wondering if Goku would ever see his family again and what would happen to Uub and their adventures?

Rocketman · Post by **Rocketman** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:51 pm

Synapse wrote:Speaking of which, why did Toriyama end the manga after DBZ? I mean, didn't he consider that the reader was wondering if Goku would ever see his family again and what would happen to Uub and their adventures?

Cause he'd been doing it for ten years and was tired of it.

However, Goku dying? That's pretty anticlimactic.

I disagree. Dragonball was about Goku's life. It just makes sense for it to end with his death as the universe's hero.

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 3:58 pm

Apathetic fans get on my nerves too, now. Fans still taket he cake for most damage to Dragonball.

PythonMonty504 · Post by **PythonMonty504** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 4:35 pm

Synapse wrote: Speaking of which, why did Toriyama end the manga after DBZ? I mean, didn't he consider that the reader was wondering if Goku would ever see his family again and what would happen to Uub and their adventures?

I think the same thing. The ending comes off way too much as a cliffhanger (which makes more since in the anime thanks to GT). I guess I'm just picky becuase the series was finally ending.

Synapse · Post by **Synapse** » Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:02 pm

Yeah, GT's ending was better than Goku dying with Freeza or flying away with Uub with no explanation never to be seen again.

Besides, I understand the hero of the universe dying in the end is a powerful idea, but the way the Dragon Ball series evolved from Goku being an innocent little boy with kick-ass misadventures to a grown man in more serious undertakings, I really wouldn't want this guy's last words to be "Chikusyo!!!!!!!!!"

That would be like making a buddy cop comedy movie where the two guys are having hilarious mishaps and all of a sudden the loveable one gets AIDS and dies right after the biggest drug bust of his life and the movie ends. It's just not gonna cut it.

So with that in mind, I gotta disagree with those who say that Dragon Ball was damaged by the people who made Toriyama keep doing the manga and Toei, who decided to keep it going with DBGT.

Except no matter what the ending, Goku's always a complete douche to his wife.

Kanzenshuu

Who has done the most damage to Dragonball?

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