I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Speedster » Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:24 pm

As of now I do not personally support this theory. As for the scenes that require such a theory in the first place the majority come from anime-only material - in DBZ we had many such too. As far as Toriyama-written power-scaling goes the only main issue is with the fight of Piccolo against Frost – but there I am willing to reason that Frost was THAT weakened after his fight with SSJ Goku (after all in Toyotaro’s manga SSJB Vegeta dropped to less than 1/10th of his full power - you wouldn’t normally expect such a big decrease for someone non-injured but hey it happened). As for base Goku vs Hit, Hit was just holding back more (like Beerus when fought the Z fighters he used as much needed). I am waiting the manga to see how things will play out regarding the sparring of Goku with future Trunks.

Anyway, I guess if you really want to use the notion that Goku has a “godly base” (similar to how Gohan used to have a “mystic base”) you will also need to explain why Goku transformed into a regular yellow SSJ1 during the tournament arc (and now in the future trunks arc into SSJ2) if without transforming he can be stronger than a yellow SSJ1/SSJ2/SSJ3.

For instance:
  • Is using godly ki (even in base) a stamina draining process?
  • Is using godly ki so much more difficult in terms of pulling it off via ki control that they say “f*ck it, it is easier to just turn into SSJ, it’s enough to defeat this guy, why go through all the trouble to use God ki?”
  • Do they think it is a good training to fight their opponents at a somewhat equal terms (in terms of power level) so that they can beat them by skill instead of enormous power difference. In other word good for skill training.
In any case whatever the excuse it is nothing but a mere headcanon that is based on absolutely nothing. The show is dealing with the concept for over 30 episodes now and the yellow lineage of transformations (SSJ1, SSJ2, SSJ3) is constantly portrayed as a power-up upon the base (in episode 53, SSJ2 was even stated to be “several dozens times” increase in Ki of the base). Not once since the Champa arc and the re-appearance of the yellow form was it ever hinted at the slightest that it could be inferior to a supposedly “non-ordinary” base (aka “godly ki” base) in order to validate the speculation of two different (in power) base forms.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Anime Kitten » Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:50 pm

I think Goku and Vegeta using Super Saiyan with god ki is simply, well, a Super Saiyan with god ki. Although I'm fairly certain that Toriyama isn't going that deep into it.
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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Bullza » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:18 am

The newest episode also showed there was nothing to this two base theory.

Something that was argued for it was that Super Saiyan Blue was Goku or Vegeta as a Super Saiyan with the God Ki switched on and so Goku or Vegeta as a regular Super Saiyan was them as a Super Saiyan with God Ki switched off making them at regular levels (like Cell level).

However Goku turned into a Super Saiyan (or 2) against Zamasu to which Gowasa said that Goku's power rivals the God of Destruction so they are not at regular levels at all. Being as how Black, Magetta, Super Saiyan Cabba and to a lesser extent Frost were all sort of comparable to Super Saiyan (or 2) Goku or Vegeta then they too are certainly not at Cell or Buu arc levels.

Additionally Super Saiyan still makes them dozens of times stronger so there don't appear to be as strong as Super Saiyan God but obviously they are still much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Desassina » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:26 am

So we take one line that Beerus so eagerly contradicted afterwards to dismiss everything that happened? Let's not be so premature.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by sintzu » Mon Aug 01, 2016 7:35 am

Bullza wrote:The newest episode also showed there was nothing to this two base theory.

Something that was argued for it was that Super Saiyan Blue was Goku or Vegeta as a Super Saiyan with the God Ki switched on and so Goku or Vegeta as a regular Super Saiyan was them as a Super Saiyan with God Ki switched off making them at regular levels (like Cell level).

However Goku turned into a Super Saiyan (or 2) against Zamasu to which Gowasa said that Goku's power rivals the God of Destruction so they are not at regular levels at all.
When Goku went Blue against Freeza, King kai said he found a way to reach Ssjg on his own so I think that's what Blue is, not Ssj1 with god Ki.

Using the ritual to reach Ssjg = Red hair.
Using their own power to reach Ssjg = Blue hair.

This is pure speculation like everything else here but I think it makes the most sense and is the least complicated theory.
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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Bullza » Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:07 am

So we take one line that Beerus so eagerly contradicted afterwards to dismiss everything that happened? Let's not be so premature.
But it isn't just one line. Back in the Battle of Gods arc they made it abundantly clear that Super Saiyan Goku was pretty much as strong as Super Saiyan God.

What was said in the latest episode just confirms that that is still true. There was also Goku commenting on how his hand was trembling and he made a light comparison to Beerus.

After all there was never anything at all to suggest that Super Saiyan was at regular levels so there is no "everything that happened". This is now two things that suggest the complete opposite.
When Goku went Blue against Freeza, King kai said he found a way to reach Ssjg on his own so I think that's what Blue is, not Ssj1 with god Ki.
Well that's just something the two base theory crowd said.

Super Saiyan = No God Ki = Regular levels
Super Saiyan Blue = God Ki = God levels

There was also that Super Saiyan being equal to Super Saiyan God when he fought Beerus was just a one off when the power was flowing through him.

I still think them powering up internally has something to do with it.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:31 am

Outside the video-games, the two base theory is not a thing. Now, we have 3 different continuities:

Movie continuity [DBZ: Battle of Gods, DBZ: Resurrection "F" script/movie/manga]
Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God in his base form & made it his own, making him slightly weaker than Super Saiyan God to the point that he no longer needs the form anymore (he could still transform on his own, but didn't know how to do it at will yet), and his other transformations such as regular Super Saiyan no longer gave him a significant increase. Through his training with Whis, his Super Saiyan form evolved into Super Saiyan Blue, a form beyond Super Saiyan God, which was the only form that made him significantly stronger, and he abandoned Super Saiyan 2 & Super Saiyan 3.

Anime continuity [Dragon Ball Super anime]
Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God in his Super Saiyan form & made it his own, making him exactly as strong as Super Saiyan God. The transformations still give the same increases, so his base is 50 times weaker than his Super Saiyan form, Super Saiyan 2 & 3 make him x2 & x4 stronger respectively, and Super Saiyan Blue is an even stronger form. He can't turn into a Super Saiyan God on his own, but he doesn't need it since his regular Super Saiyan has the same power now.

Manga continuity [Dragon Ball Super manga]
Goku never absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God in his base or Super Saiyan forms. After training with Whis, Goku learned how to turn into a Super Saiyan God on his own, and also managed to achieve an even stronger form, Super Saiyan Blue.

---

Now, these are the facts so far. No mention of 2 base forms existing anywhere. But in my personal head canon, the BoG & FnF movies take place in the same continuity as the Dragon Ball Super manga from the U6 arc & beyond. So, my belief is that Goku absorbed the power of SSG in his base form in BoG, and learned how to become a SSB by the time of FnF. By the time the tournament in the U6 arc began, Goku had fully mastered the power of SSG, so he could now turn into a SSG on his own, and also freely deactivate the SSG power from his base form, bringing him back to his regular levels. So, he has now abandoned the base with SSG power form in favor of his SSG form, which is slightly stronger.

I'm not treating this as a fact, this is just my opinion for my personal canon.
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James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Desassina » Mon Aug 01, 2016 9:32 am

I've been against the idea of two fixed base states, and I proposed another where their base could range between two levels: regular and God-like. If Goku was using SSJ with all of his God power absorbed in the BoG arc of DB Super, then he still hadn't surpassed the threshold to become a SSJ Blue through the same transformation. We have enraged SSJ2 Vegeta inspiring Beerus to use 10% of his power, and he didn't become a SSJB, which means that the old transformations can help them reach the level of a God of Destruction. That doesn't rule out the idea of SSJB being the latest tranformation that they can use with power that is past a certain threshold. However, it would imply that SSJ2 and 3 can be turned blue as well.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by sintzu » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:20 am

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Anime continuity [Dragon Ball Super anime]
Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God in his Super Saiyan form & made it his own, making him exactly as strong as Super Saiyan God. The transformations still give the same increases, so his base is 50 times weaker than his Super Saiyan form.
Wouldn't his Ssj form give him a bigger increase due to it being as strong as Ssjg ?
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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Draconic » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:29 pm

sintzu wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Anime continuity [Dragon Ball Super anime]
Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God in his Super Saiyan form & made it his own, making him exactly as strong as Super Saiyan God. The transformations still give the same increases, so his base is 50 times weaker than his Super Saiyan form.
Wouldn't his Ssj form give him a bigger increase due to it being as strong as Ssjg ?
No, because his base would grow too, making that 50 times weaker that Super Saiyan God.
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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by buutenks » Mon Aug 01, 2016 12:58 pm

I don't believe in it. Never did, never will(unless its confirmed true in universe).

Goku's base form is simply very powerful.

I think the 2 base theory was created to make the u6 fighters weak.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Kishido » Mon Aug 01, 2016 3:12 pm

buutenks wrote:I don't believe in it. Never did, never will(unless its confirmed true in universe).

Goku's base form is simply very powerful.

I think the 2 base theory was created to make the u6 fighters weak.
The theory is shit... BUT so ar ethe power levels...

Or do you think Super Saiyan 2 Trunks could give a Base God level Goku a need to transform? The same Goku who fought in Base with fully trained Frieza... The Frieza who used his 1st form to own Super Saiyan Gohan?

And even some chapters ago Copy Vegeta owned Gotenks without problem... So why the heck does Goku even need to go Super Saiyan 2 against the likes as Trunks and Zamasu.

Hell even against Frost... He had no golden form or anything... Or do we really should think that Frost final form > Fieza final form (not golden)

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by buutenks » Mon Aug 01, 2016 5:49 pm

Kishido wrote:
buutenks wrote:I don't believe in it. Never did, never will(unless its confirmed true in universe).

Goku's base form is simply very powerful.

I think the 2 base theory was created to make the u6 fighters weak.
The theory is shit... BUT so ar ethe power levels...

Or do you think Super Saiyan 2 Trunks could give a Base God level Goku a need to transform? The same Goku who fought in Base with fully trained Frieza... The Frieza who used his 1st form to own Super Saiyan Gohan?

And even some chapters ago Copy Vegeta owned Gotenks without problem... So why the heck does Goku even need to go Super Saiyan 2 against the likes as Trunks and Zamasu.

Hell even against Frost... He had no golden form or anything... Or do we really should think that Frost final form > Fieza final form (not golden)
I guess that is a bit off haha ^^

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Kaboom » Mon Aug 01, 2016 6:07 pm

buutenks wrote:I think the 2 base theory was created to make the u6 fighters weak.
There's a veeeeeeeeery big difference between "weak" and "not on a godly level for no reason." Someone not wanting the power-scaling to be bloated on a scale never seen before does not mean they have some sort of vendetta where they dislike certain characters and want them to be as weak as possible. It's not unreasonable for someone to find it absurd that not just the Universe 6 folks, but the regular non-god guys from Universe 7 like Piccolo who fought them, could somehow rocket ahead in power to such a degree.

This is another example of the inexplicable vitriol against this theory that really confuses me. There's some assumption that people only have selfish reasons for coming up with explanations for things. Super hasn't explained jack squat about how all this god-ki stuff works, or the details of how it changed Goku and Vegeta's strength. There are holes all over the place. People have the prerogative to fill those holes in whatever fashion works best for them.
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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Tectorman » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:17 pm

(checks episode 53)

(checks current iteration of two-base theory)

Ain't been contradicted yet. My two-base theory is taking this in stride.

I will admit that I am broaching a notion similar to what Desassina said, that it might be more a gradation than a strictly binary God power on/God power off.
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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Doctor. » Mon Aug 01, 2016 10:21 pm

I think it's an overcomplicated mess that is needed to make sense out of a show with powerscaling even messier.

I was against it before the current arc, because everything could be fit into place if you just assumed the U6 contestants and PIccolo were god level. But when Trunks has trouble with Dabra, then Goku needs SS2 against Trunks and that same Goku is stronger than SS3 Gotenks in BASE, the two-base theory is obviously needed.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Bullza » Tue Aug 02, 2016 1:52 am

But an unknown amount of time passed between Trunks fighting Dabura to him fighting Goku. Goku also didn't need to use SSJ2 against him, he just used it to match him.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Hitiro » Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:44 am

Tectorman wrote:This is only an issue if you think that "God Ki Power" (Goku and Vegeta using the power of their God Ki) is inseparable from "God Ki Nature" (the fact that God Ki can't be sensed by non-Gods).

DB Super episode 13 had everyone suddenly start sensing Goku's ki again, meaning that his SSJG had timed out. And the same episode establishes that Goku kept the power of the form after dropping out of said form. So clearly, God Ki Power is a separate thing from God Ki Nature.

Meaning that Goku can indeed be fighting Frieza in "God-Mode Base", using his God Ki Power while it can still be sensed by non-Gods.
I don't see it like that. From what I see in episode 13 Goku converted a good portion of the God Ki into his regular Ki supply. Rather than keeping the God Ki. I think this was even more obviously suggested in the BoG movie. We are distinctly told that regular humans can't sense God Ki so I highly doubt that there is such a separation as it would have been made apparent. If he has "God Ki" in his base form it wouldn't be sensed by the others plain and simple.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by buutenks » Tue Aug 02, 2016 11:54 am

Kaboom wrote:
buutenks wrote:I think the 2 base theory was created to make the u6 fighters weak.
There's a veeeeeeeeery big difference between "weak" and "not on a godly level for no reason." Someone not wanting the power-scaling to be bloated on a scale never seen before does not mean they have some sort of vendetta where they dislike certain characters and want them to be as weak as possible. It's not unreasonable for someone to find it absurd that not just the Universe 6 folks, but the regular non-god guys from Universe 7 like Piccolo who fought them, could somehow rocket ahead in power to such a degree.

This is another example of the inexplicable vitriol against this theory that really confuses me. There's some assumption that people only have selfish reasons for coming up with explanations for things. Super hasn't explained jack squat about how all this god-ki stuff works, or the details of how it changed Goku and Vegeta's strength. There are holes all over the place. People have the prerogative to fill those holes in whatever fashion works best for them.
Well allot placed u6 fighters at cell games level, when they should be at minimum super buu level.

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Re: I want YOUR opinion of the Two-Base Theory

Post by Doctor. » Tue Aug 02, 2016 2:21 pm

Bullza wrote:But an unknown amount of time passed between Trunks fighting Dabura to him fighting Goku. Goku also didn't need to use SSJ2 against him, he just used it to match him.
Are you saying Trunks is god level too? Goku obviously needed SS2, otherwise he wouldn't have gone SS3.

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