Kuririn wasn't dumb

[FoolsGil]

What if it was Seventeen cowering with Sixteen? Would Krillin have done the same thing? Or would have done the right thing?

...Look into your hearts-you know it to be true. He was even flashbacking to Eighteen's kiss while he was making the decision. Goodness, Morality, the honest to goodness right thing, fall when you're in lust with an immortal fembot.

[MaxZ]

What was literally the first thing she was going to do before Cell showed up. KILL GOKU! She only stopped because Cell showed up. She had no intention of not killing Goku til a bigger threat forced her into hiding. They were going to beat the shit out of everyone if they didn't talk at Kame House, and also threatened to kill Piccolo if he didn't talk. Nowhere does 18 give a shit about any of that or having second thoughts. She was in it to kill Goku.

the androids made many threats, and didn't follow through with any of them. it was all just a game.

they also said they'd kill anyone who got in the way of Vegeta and 18's fight, and then when that happened they went out of their way to not kill anyone. Vegeta himself was more villainous at the time than the androids were, to be frank.

He shouldn't have smashed the remote at all. There is no telling what she may or may not do. He let his crush get in the way of his judgement. If that were 17 there and not 18, he would not have done that shit. Even the guidebooks support he did it because he fell in love with 18, and not because he was being noble.We all know Vegeta is at the worst fault, but Krillin is also hugely in the wrong. Hell he could wish her back later if he really wanted to afterwards. Killing her then would have been the smartest thing. Even Piccolo knew this shit when he told Evil Boo to go kill all the humans. They could not only be wished back, but if they die now, the humans would die either way. Sometimes sacrifices for the greater good must be made. Especially in Dragon Ball where death isn't even much of a consequence at all.

there's no reason why he can't have two motivations behind his actions, nobility and having a crush. it was a little bit of both.

as for Super Buu, it was a certainty that he was going to kill people. Piccolo could do nothing else to stop him or stall him. Cell is entirely different, there was no certainty at all that he'd be able to absorb her. in fact, it was impossible for him to absorb her unless Vegeta allowed him to, ergo Vegeta holds 100% of the blame.

at that point, Vegeta's victory over Cell was assured, and 18 was no longer a threat at all. Piccolo, Vegeta, Trunks, and soon Goku and Gohan could all defeat her easily. Vegeta was a bigger threat than she was at that point, Vegeta also spat nonsense about fighting and killing Goku in the Cell Saga.

[dbzfan7]

the androids made many threats, and didn't follow through with any of them. it was all just a game.

they also said they'd kill anyone who got in the way of Vegeta and 18's fight, and then when that happened they went out of their way to not kill anyone. Vegeta himself was more villainous at the time than the androids were, to be frank.

It wasn't a game. They were going to kill Goku and showed no sign of stopping. Likely after that, they'd kill everyone else as they'd need a new purpose. I doubt after killing Goku they'd just do nothing. The only reasons they didn't kill them then was because they could fight them later. Though if they weren't given senzu's they may not even have survived.

there's no reason why he can't have two motivations behind his actions, nobility and having a crush. it was a little bit of both.

as for Super Buu, it was a certainty that he was going to kill people. Piccolo could do nothing else to stop him or stall him. Cell is entirely different, there was no certainty at all that he'd be able to absorb her. in fact, it was impossible for him to absorb her unless Vegeta allowed him to, ergo Vegeta holds 100% of the blame.

at that point, Vegeta's victory over Cell was assured, and 18 was no longer a threat at all. Piccolo, Vegeta, Trunks, and soon Goku and Gohan could all defeat her easily. Vegeta was a bigger threat than she was at that point, Vegeta also spat nonsense about fighting and killing Goku in the Cell Saga.

'

There was NO nobility at all. All he thinks about is being kissed by her. It was all based on crush. He can't even properly say why he let her go, further showing it was all based on crush. There was nothing about him mentioning or thinking it's based on them being good.

Why the hell would Krillin trust Vegeta? When has Vegeta ever been reliable to do the right thing for others? Before this he wanted the cyborgs to be activated to be fought. Where does that sound like a team player? If anything he never at all should have trusted Vegeta as he never does the right thing. He's an even bigger idiot for thinking Vegeta wouldn't let him reach his perfect form. Not only that but, SHE CAN BE REVIVED. Death is meaningless in Dragon Ball. She could be brought back anyways. So there's no damn reason to not just do that. Piccolo knew the greater good mattered, and Krillin did not care. If there is any chance something can go wrong, especially in a world where all errors can be fixed, you damn well take that chance.

It wasn't assured. Even Goku himself said the same thing about Cell, that he is unpredictable. Hell even without Vegeta's help, Cell coulda done the Taiyoken and accomplished the same thing. Even then if he wanted to wait, he shouldn't have smashed the remote. The minute things could go wrong, he can use the device, and then the Dragon Balls if needed. Krillin would NOT have done the same thing for 16 or 17, so that throws out all nobility.

[MaxZ]

It wasn't assured. Even Goku himself said the same thing about Cell, that he is unpredictable. Hell even without Vegeta's help, Cell coulda done the Taiyoken and accomplished the same thing. Even then if he wanted to wait, he shouldn't have smashed the remote. The minute things could go wrong, he can use the device, and then the Dragon Balls if needed. Krillin would NOT have done the same thing for 16 or 17, so that throws out all nobility.

How do you know he would not have? Krillin was the only person to try and reason with the androids prior to that, the only person who saw them as people. I don't believe Krillin would kill 17 either, not like that. maybe if 17 became hostile, but while he was just cowering there? no way.

[dbzfan7]

It wasn't assured. Even Goku himself said the same thing about Cell, that he is unpredictable. Hell even without Vegeta's help, Cell coulda done the Taiyoken and accomplished the same thing. Even then if he wanted to wait, he shouldn't have smashed the remote. The minute things could go wrong, he can use the device, and then the Dragon Balls if needed. Krillin would NOT have done the same thing for 16 or 17, so that throws out all nobility.

How do you know he would not have? Krillin was the only person to try and reason with the androids prior to that, the only person who saw them as people. I don't believe Krillin would kill 17 either, not like that. maybe if 17 became hostile, but while he was just cowering there? no way.

Because it kissed him. That's why. If 18 NEVER flirted with him, he'd never have hesitated. He only took sudden interest, because of his crush. He believed there was good in 18 just cause he got kissed and formed some form of stockholm relationship to her. This is because a hopeless romantic is part of Krillin's character at this time. He never takes any interest in 16 or 17. We know he wouldn't have done such a thing for them, because he only showed mercy from his emotions confusing him. He never cared about the Cyborgs til he was kissed.

What makes it even stupider other than Krillin thinking the pride lustful Vegeta would actually do the right thing, is that the Dragon Balls literally can bring her back anyways, so killing her is no big deal at all. It's why it wasn't such a big deal to Piccolo either. It sucked sure, but he knew the humans could come back anyways. Krillin uses the remote, Cell dies, 18 is resurrected, EVERYONE WINS! World saved in the most safe efficient way possible.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

We know he wouldn't have done such a thing for them, because he only showed mercy from his emotions confusing him. He never cared about the Cyborgs til he was kissed.

This would make Kuririn an exceptionally shallow person, and I just don't see it. And killing her because "She might have turned evil" is putting the punishment before the crime.

Kuririn did the right thing. The only reason anything bad happened from his choice was Vegeta. And while not killing 18 is the way to go morally, it also makes sense in your "do the smartest thing for the greater good" philosophy. If 18 did turn evil, Vegeta or Piccolo or Gohan or Gokuu could have killed her anyway. But that wasn't Kuririn's motivation.

[dbzfan7]

We know he wouldn't have done such a thing for them, because he only showed mercy from his emotions confusing him. He never cared about the Cyborgs til he was kissed.

This would make Kuririn an exceptionally shallow person, and I just don't see it. And killing her because "She might have turned evil" is putting the punishment before the crime.

Kuririn did the right thing. The only reason anything bad happened from his choice was Vegeta. And while not killing 18 is the way to go morally, it also makes sense in your "do the smartest thing for the greater good" philosophy. If 18 did turn evil, Vegeta or Piccolo or Gohan or Gokuu could have killed her anyway. But that wasn't Kuririn's motivation.

It makes him a more flawed and interesting person, not shallow. He was emotionally confused and not a pure do gooder. He didn't do the right thing, and paid for it. If he did it the other way it would have been the right thing, but not as interesting thing. Any typical hero does the right thing, a flawed hero is confused. He was emotionally weak. Let his emotions override proper judgement.

Who he trusted like an idiot, as Vegeta never was a team player. He always looked out for himself. He already once went over his head with the Cyborgs, so what makes anyone think he wouldn't do it again? 18 also can be brought back to life either way, so you end up saving the world and bringing her back to life either way. So without a doubt killing her was the right thing to do. Not killing 18 was morally wrong as by not doing it, that led to more and more people dying. Good job on that Krillin.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

Not killing 18 was morally wrong as by not doing it, that led to more and more people dying. Good job on that Krillin.

It's Cell that did all the killing, not Kuririn.

[dbzfan7]

Not killing 18 was morally wrong as by not doing it, that led to more and more people dying. Good job on that Krillin.

It's Cell that did all the killing, not Kuririn.

Because he trusted Vegeta, the guy who still kills innocent people, and already let his ego go out of control before to fight a challenge out of his league. The guy who let the Cyborgs who were prophesied to kill everyone exist, because he wanted a challenge. Oh yes, that was totally unexpected from the guy who never cared about anyone other than himself, to think of himself above others yet again. Who would have thought the selfish homicidal maniac, would be a selfish homicidal maniac. No way! Way to go Krillin, really good guy to trust there.

Krillin had the power to stop Cell, and said fuck it I want 18 because I love her. Nothing to do with merely sex as some people point out, but because he loves her. She's his hopeless romantic crush. He picked 1 life over the life of his friends, and the entire planet. Also from the people who beat his friends to near death, which 17 said they'd die if he didn't heal them. What was the only thing he thought of when asking Trunks if they had to be that bad. 18. I wonder why.

The only point I concede with being wrong, is mine about the Dragon Balls. I remembered they didn't exist at the time, but even then they would have been brought back sooner or later anyways. So even then she still could be wished back if he felt bad.

Also from D2

His mind clouded by memories of No. 18, Kuririn doesn't press the deactivation controller button.

Kuririn soon fell in love with Artificial Human No.18, and saves her life.

[Friezacooler]

I would wonder if Vegeta killed or tried to kill innocent bystanders, wether Bills and Whis would let him act like Vegeta or they would interfere? or do they care even less about the bystanders then Vegeta? Krillin does it cause of crush and the Gods cause of good food lol.

[MaxZ]

We know he wouldn't have done such a thing for them, because he only showed mercy from his emotions confusing him. He never cared about the Cyborgs til he was kissed.

This would make Kuririn an exceptionally shallow person, and I just don't see it. And killing her because "She might have turned evil" is putting the punishment before the crime.

Kuririn did the right thing. The only reason anything bad happened from his choice was Vegeta. And while not killing 18 is the way to go morally, it also makes sense in your "do the smartest thing for the greater good" philosophy. If 18 did turn evil, Vegeta or Piccolo or Gohan or Gokuu could have killed her anyway. But that wasn't Kuririn's motivation.

It makes him a more flawed and interesting person, not shallow. He was emotionally confused and not a pure do gooder. He didn't do the right thing, and paid for it. If he did it the other way it would have been the right thing, but not as interesting thing. Any typical hero does the right thing, a flawed hero is confused. He was emotionally weak. Let his emotions override proper judgement.

Who he trusted like an idiot, as Vegeta never was a team player. He always looked out for himself. He already once went over his head with the Cyborgs, so what makes anyone think he wouldn't do it again? 18 also can be brought back to life either way, so you end up saving the world and bringing her back to life either way. So without a doubt killing her was the right thing to do. Not killing 18 was morally wrong as by not doing it, that led to more and more people dying. Good job on that Krillin.

I just can't agree with this "greater good" thinking.

It's never right to kill an innocent person.

[dbzfan7]

This would make Kuririn an exceptionally shallow person, and I just don't see it. And killing her because "She might have turned evil" is putting the punishment before the crime.

Kuririn did the right thing. The only reason anything bad happened from his choice was Vegeta. And while not killing 18 is the way to go morally, it also makes sense in your "do the smartest thing for the greater good" philosophy. If 18 did turn evil, Vegeta or Piccolo or Gohan or Gokuu could have killed her anyway. But that wasn't Kuririn's motivation.

It makes him a more flawed and interesting person, not shallow. He was emotionally confused and not a pure do gooder. He didn't do the right thing, and paid for it. If he did it the other way it would have been the right thing, but not as interesting thing. Any typical hero does the right thing, a flawed hero is confused. He was emotionally weak. Let his emotions override proper judgement.

Who he trusted like an idiot, as Vegeta never was a team player. He always looked out for himself. He already once went over his head with the Cyborgs, so what makes anyone think he wouldn't do it again? 18 also can be brought back to life either way, so you end up saving the world and bringing her back to life either way. So without a doubt killing her was the right thing to do. Not killing 18 was morally wrong as by not doing it, that led to more and more people dying. Good job on that Krillin.

I just can't agree with this "greater good" thinking.

It's never right to kill an innocent person.

Piccolo had the entire earth killed by Boo to buy time, for the greater good. Cole MacGrath killed thousands of conduits to save millions of humans, for the greater good. Spock killed himself for the greater good. Superman kills Zod for the greater good. Goku let himself remain dead because he believed in for the greater good. Or better yet as the great Spock once said "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few." You do what is right for the world, and not what is right for one person or your own feelings. You do not put the well being of 7 billion lives at risk, just because of one person no matter how innocent, which she really isn't. You do not let all the men, women, and children suffer or die because of one person. You do not let a planet suffer because of one person. Why should the majority have to suffer? Why should the many have to be punished because of one? Why should every single human being risk death over a single life? Why should one person have priority over 7 billion innocent?"

This is why Goku and Vegeta were wrong to let the Cyborgs even exist. They wanted to selfishly have someone strong to fight. They put their own desire over the safety of the world. That's putting billions of innocents on the line because they wanted a challenge. Any time you put more countless people at risk for any one of your decisions, your immediately in the wrong. If one choice can save the entire world, even if it includes sacrifice, it's worth it. Nothing is ever worth the cost of the entire planet and everyone elses life.

[MaxZ]

Piccolo had the entire earth killed by Boo to buy time, for the greater good. Cole MacGrath killed thousands of conduits to save millions of humans, for the greater good. Spock killed himself for the greater good. Superman kills Zod for the greater good. Goku let himself remain dead because he believed in for the greater good. Or better yet as the great Spock once said "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few." You do what is right for the world, and not what is right for one person or your own feelings. You do not put the well being of 7 billion lives at risk, just because of one person no matter how innocent, which she really isn't. You do not let all the men, women, and children suffer or die because of one person. You do not let a planet suffer because of one person. Why should the majority have to suffer? Why should the many have to be punished because of one? Why should every single human being risk death over a single life? Why should one person have priority over 7 billion innocent?"

This is why Goku and Vegeta were wrong to let the Cyborgs even exist. They wanted to selfishly have someone strong to fight. They put their own desire over the safety of the world. That's putting billions of innocents on the line because they wanted a challenge. Any time you put more countless people at risk for any one of your decisions, your immediately in the wrong. If one choice can save the entire world, even if it includes sacrifice, it's worth it. Nothing is ever worth the cost of the entire planet and everyone elses life.

but it wasn't worth the cost of the planet, because they found another way. the situation was not a no win situation, it was not a position where there was no other choice.

in fact, if 18 had been killed, Cell probably would have ended up blowing himself up and destroying the Earth.

an a lot of your scenarios are not the same. Buu was going to kill everyone anyway, so it made no difference. Zod was not an innocent person, so I don't see any validity to that comparison.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

If one choice can save the entire world, even if it includes sacrifice, it's worth it. Nothing is ever worth the cost of the entire planet and everyone else life.

If you must sacrifice some one to save the world, let it be yourself. 18 didn't volunteer to blow herself up, and wasn't obligated to.

[MaxZ]

Exactly.

Are you gonna tell me 18 was morally obligated to kill herself to stop Cell?

[dbzfan7]

Piccolo had the entire earth killed by Boo to buy time, for the greater good. Cole MacGrath killed thousands of conduits to save millions of humans, for the greater good. Spock killed himself for the greater good. Superman kills Zod for the greater good. Goku let himself remain dead because he believed in for the greater good. Or better yet as the great Spock once said "The needs of the many, outweigh the needs of the few." You do what is right for the world, and not what is right for one person or your own feelings. You do not put the well being of 7 billion lives at risk, just because of one person no matter how innocent, which she really isn't. You do not let all the men, women, and children suffer or die because of one person. You do not let a planet suffer because of one person. Why should the majority have to suffer? Why should the many have to be punished because of one? Why should every single human being risk death over a single life? Why should one person have priority over 7 billion innocent?"

This is why Goku and Vegeta were wrong to let the Cyborgs even exist. They wanted to selfishly have someone strong to fight. They put their own desire over the safety of the world. That's putting billions of innocents on the line because they wanted a challenge. Any time you put more countless people at risk for any one of your decisions, your immediately in the wrong. If one choice can save the entire world, even if it includes sacrifice, it's worth it. Nothing is ever worth the cost of the entire planet and everyone elses life.

but it wasn't worth the cost of the planet, because they found another way. the situation was not a no win situation, it was not a position where there was no other choice.

in fact, if 18 had been killed, Cell probably would have ended up blowing himself up and destroying the Earth.

an a lot of your scenarios are not the same. Buu was going to kill everyone anyway, so it made no difference. Zod was not an innocent person, so I don't see any validity to that comparison.

It was off a complete fluke. Just like how if Freeza hadn't tipped off Vegeta on going to Namek, Vegeta would have returned to earth and killed everyone before Goku could heal. It was also a fluke because Cell could have just gone around killing, but instead garnered a new ego. Another lucky break. He only killed because he was attacked after he became perfect.

If he even had the chance to. He'd be killed off instantly by either Vegeta or Trunks at that point if there's no 18.

18 could be brought back to life later so it made no difference if she died. That's the big point. Stopping her is the right thing to do. Letting her live led to Perfect Cell which was the absolute worst thing to do. Which then led to more death and more loss. Less people die when she goes. Piccolo coulda just taken the long walk instead of just sacrificing earth, but instead took the chance as any thing that could buy more time for the boys was worth it. He coulda just gone with plan B too and locked both sides in the ROSAT, but instead went with sacrifice to increase their odds.

If one choice can save the entire world, even if it includes sacrifice, it's worth it. Nothing is ever worth the cost of the entire planet and everyone else life.

If you must sacrifice some one to save the world, let it be yourself. 18 didn't volunteer to blow herself up, and wasn't obligated to.

I would if it meant that. Anyone who doesn't is a self centered asshole who would doom everyone else because they're cunts who think too much of themselves. Anyone who would literally let 7 billion innocents suffer and burn alongside them because they don't want to give themselves up deserves to die.

I never want you in this spot. You'd let billions suffer for no good reason. You'd let billions of men, women, and children all suffer because of 1 innocent.

[RedRibbonSoldier#42]

I never want you in this spot. You'd let billions suffer for no good reason. You'd let billions of men, women, and children all suffer because of 1 innocent.

Fortunantly for both of us, I highly doubt a situation that extreme will happen. And I don't think Kuririn's was that extreme either. He wasn't dooming millions, he was saving one (or 2 if 16 counts). Cell and Vegeta get all the blame here.

[dbzfan7]

I never want you in this spot. You'd let billions suffer for no good reason. You'd let billions of men, women, and children all suffer because of 1 innocent.

Fortunantly for both of us, I highly doubt a situation that extreme will happen. And I don't think Kuririn's was that extreme either. He wasn't dooming millions, he was saving one (or 2 if 16 counts). Cell and Vegeta get all the blame here.

He did. He put his trust in a guy who never does anything for anyone but himself. Because Vegeta is a trust worthy guy. Vegeta. The guy who killed a random person because he got in the way of a fight. Yeah, real smart Krillin. A guy who already has shown he'd let his own family die without a care in the world. THAT is the guy Krillin thinks would do the right thing. Cell is a guy who would kill all life, and even more life in the universe once he was done with earth. So hell 7 billion is actually minuscule to the amount of lives Cell threatened, because Krillin wouldn't push a damn button and revive her later once the Dragon Balls were restored. He puts faith in a one of the most evil vile people he's met to stop Cell, and then won't push a button to temporarily stop a girl who could be brought back to life anyways. No Krillin is a piece of shit.

[MaxZ]

I don't know how to make it any more clear

what Krillin did was not some ridiculous made up black and white trolly problem scenario. nothing is ever that black and white. he chose to try and help her avoid Cell instead of killing her, and it was the right thing to do. killing her was not the only way to stop Cell, and of story.

human lives should not be valued based on percents and statistics. if that's how you look at morality, maybe 18 isn't the android in this situation.

[MaxZ]

I never want you in this spot. You'd let billions suffer for no good reason. You'd let billions of men, women, and children all suffer because of 1 innocent.

Fortunantly for both of us, I highly doubt a situation that extreme will happen. And I don't think Kuririn's was that extreme either. He wasn't dooming millions, he was saving one (or 2 if 16 counts). Cell and Vegeta get all the blame here.

He did. He put his trust in a guy who never does anything for anyone but himself. Because Vegeta is a trust worthy guy. Vegeta. The guy who killed a random person because he got in the way of a fight. Yeah, real smart Krillin. A guy who already has shown he'd let his own family die without a care in the world. THAT is the guy Krillin thinks would do the right thing. Cell is a guy who would kill all life, and even more life in the universe once he was done with earth. So hell 7 billion is actually minuscule to the amount of lives Cell threatened, because Krillin wouldn't push a damn button and revive her later once the Dragon Balls were restored. He puts faith in a one of the most evil vile people he's met to stop Cell, and then won't push a button to temporarily stop a girl who could be brought back to life anyways. No Krillin is a piece of shit.

why would Krillin ever think Vegeta wouldn't kill Cell? he's Vegeta, the guy who loves fighting and killing people. Vegeta would take great pleasure in killing Cell.