Can our next arc villian be a woman?

[Kanassa]

Your misguided chivalry is a huge example of how deeply ingrained misogyny is in modern culture.

No it isn't! Socety is definitly sexist, but you are misusing the word misogyny. It is not hatred against woman, it's society thinking taking whiny idiots seriously that equality is simply making the previously 'In-Power' side less equal and that they can't comit the buzzwords they spout.

[Shin]

The only thing I would dread is fan reaction and if this thread is something to go by, it would be a total mess.

Not really, this thread proves more that the only noticable outcry would be minor. There's only been a few 'extreme' posts in this thread, where as 70% have been "Yes, we need more woman!" and 20% "Gender shouldn't matter"

You're right. I shouldn't focus too much on the very minor extreme negativity.

If you really find that an issue, you could always have the villainess get redeemed. That's what happens in a lot of Shojo. And it happens to 18.

If Goku can spare Freeza three times, why wouldn't he spare her?

This is a good point too! To automatically assume that Gokuu, or anyone, is gonna be killing her is very... weird.

[Boo Machine]

I get the side of the argument that says men shouldn't hit girls. I really do. I think everyone knows where that comes from.

But I still can't help but feel like, if there was a female fighter that was equal to Goku, Goku should be able to fight her regardless of gender, because she is either a warrior or a threat and saying he shouldn't fight her is disrespect toward her. Like she is lesser than goku because she is a woman and goku wouldn't be morally in the right to treat her as anything else but her gender. I feel like that's saying woman aren't worthy to be treated as warriors.

I think that would be more insulting than anything.

But I get it. I get why it's funny to see bulma slap goku but some people might be uncomfortable to see, someone like goku hit a female warrior regardless of how powerful she is. I know where that thought process comes from. But at what point is it unfair that woman can't join the super awesome fight club known as Dragonball because no one wants to see a woman be hit? When do we get to see Goku or any other male fight a worthy female warrior without immediately getting into the mind set of "The male fighter is in the wrong here."

I get the apprehension of it. Honestly I don't know how I would feel if Goku fought a Female fighter. Because as far as I remember, it hasn't happened before. I'm not saying I want goku going around sucker punching any woman that's even remotely a fighter. But I think any Female character should be given that chance to fight if they want to. I think it's an option we should be open to.

That's all I would really ask for really. Just for the option to be there without people fearing for goku's morality. There has got to be a point where we stop treating all woman like they're little flowers who need to be protected by men. I get why that sentiment exists. I really do . I just don't 100% agree with it.

[Viewtiful Jess]

[spoiler]What you lack in this logical argument is the fact that, in the end, the formidable foe, who happens to be a woman, get bashed hard by GOKU.
So far Goku minced aliens, artifacts, robots... but couldn't pass the concept "Goku, our hero, could easily bash a girl to death if needed".
Goku will become the one that killed a girl.
Even if the girl is an evil alien that treat our (fictional) galaxy.
Having Goku kill a girl put him in a morale field the character WASN'T scripted for. So, why not a kid villain? And why not torture some evil one?

As for the series you quoted, they're about female leads, and if someone harm them is naturally the evil one.

And why punching a girl is immoral?
'Cause, in 99.999999% of cases, girls do their daily jobs and doesn't train in martial arts or do heavy lifting or any kind of strenght boost. They have 0 combat level. That's doesn't mean to disqualify girls, but let's face reality: girls in 99.99999% of cases, must be protected by the 0.000001% of strong evil ones that want to harm them.
There are bad guys out here.
Every day we read bad stories about girls being harmed by human worms.
Goku punching a girl will kill any hope I have that one day girls will not be bashed by ANYONE, not even a fictional hero.

...while strong girls can fight along with him against evil ones at the same level (and that's the difference to note).[/spoiler]

So what if Goku beats and kills her? Goku loves to fight, and has a sense for right and wrong. She is evil, she ends up defeated or destroyed. The end.

The entire second part of that post is dated, sexist, and ignorant garbage.

[Shin]

I get the side of the argument that says men shouldn't hit girls. I really do. I think everyone knows where that comes from.

But I still can't help but feel like, if there was a female fighter that was equal to Goku, Goku should be able to fight her regardless of gender, because she is either a warrior or a threat and saying he shouldn't fight her is disrespect toward her. Like she is lesser than goku because she is a woman and goku wouldn't be morally in the right to treat her as anything else but her gender. I feel like that's saying woman aren't worthy to be treated as warriors.

I think that would be more insulting than anything.

But I get it. I get why it's funny to see bulma slap goku but some people might be uncomfortable to see, someone like goku hit a female warrior regardless of how powerful she is. I know where that thought process comes from. But at what point is it unfair that woman can't join the super awesome fight club known as Dragonball because no one wants to see a woman be hit? When do we get to see Goku or any other male fight a worthy female warrior without immediately getting into the mind set of "The male fighter is in the wrong here."

I get the apprehension of it. Honestly I don't know how I would feel if Goku fought a Female fighter. Because as far as I remember, it hasn't happened before. I'm not saying I want goku going around sucker punching any woman that's even remotely a fighter. But I think any Female character should be given that chance to fight if they want to. I think it's an option we should be open to.

That's all I would really ask for really. Just for the option to be there without people fearing for goku's morality. There has got to be a point where we stop treating all woman like they're little flowers who need to be protected by men. I get why that sentiment exists. I really do . I just don't 100% agree with it.

Which is what I've been trying to say this whole time! Thank you. Your whole post is right on the mark.

[Kanassa]

There has got to be a point where we stop treating all woman like they're little flowers who need to be protected by men. I get why that sentiment exists. I really do . I just don't 100% agree with it.

Well of course, it's a strange case of both ways sexism.

[ArchedThunder]

Your misguided chivalry is a huge example of how deeply ingrained misogyny is in modern culture.

No it isn't! Socety is definitly sexist, but you are misusing the word misogyny. It is not hatred against woman, it's society thinking taking whiny idiots seriously that equality is simply making the previously 'In-Power' side less equal and that they can't comit the buzzwords they spout.

Misogyny (/mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including social exclusion, sex discrimination, hostility, androcentrism, patriarchy, and male privilege ideas, belittling of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.

The idea that all women are delicate and must be protected, regardless of their deeds, is ingrained prejudice from the days when women were no more than the property of a man, it's discrimination based on sex and androcentrist view. Before you try and come at someone on social issues maybe you should do some research first.
And what the actual fuck are you talking about "making the previously in-power side less equal"? Who are you even talking to, because it sure as hell isn't me. Not treating all women as helpless beings that need to be protected isn't putting men any lower in society, unless your societal view of a man is one who protects women, in which case you are all kinds of messed up.

[HeroR]

We don't need video game material in Super.

Maybe. Unless Toriyama decides to bring back another villain, make him stronger in a randomly way and kill him in the same movie/saga, adding nothing to the plot. If that is to happen again, then we will urgently need Dragon Ball Online stuff in Dragon Ball Super.

Freeza was still a character in the manga and he didn't get stronger randomly. He trained, just like all the other main characters who got BS power-ups from training, while video game characters are just that, video game characters. It's the same reason why Hatchiyack never appeared in any official way.

So we don't need Dragon Ball Online stuff anywhere near Super. Especially weak sauce villains like Towa and Mira.

[Viewtiful Jess]

Also Trunks completely ANNIHILATED #18, nobody is up in arms about that? Future Trunks; HUGELY popular character, Hero of Time, Saiyan Prince - killed an evil villian who took everything away from him.

And she was a woman.

[Kanassa]

And what the actual fuck are you talking about "making the previously in-power side less equal"? Who are you even talking to, because it sure as hell isn't me. Not treating all women as helpless beings that need to be protected isn't putting men any lower in society, unless your societal view of a man is one who protects women, in which case you are all kinds of messed up.

I was trying to find a short way to refer to the times where woman had less rights, as in I was saying these days idiots are thinking that instead of achieving actual equality, the roles should just be swapped. Though I will admit that I have misunderstood the wider definition of mysogony, I've only seen the context of the word as only hatred.

[ArchedThunder]

I was trying to find a short way to refer to the times where woman had less rights, as in I was saying these days idiots are thinking that instead of achieving actual equality, the roles should just be swapped. Though I will admit that I have misunderstood the wider definition of mysogony, I've only seen the context of the word as only hatred.

Fair enough, but nobody is talking about swapping roles here, just that women should be treated equally. If there is a female villain who is incredibly strong then there should be no uproar about her gender/sex, she should be treated the same as any other villain in the franchise's history.

[Kanassa]

I was trying to find a short way to refer to the times where woman had less rights, as in I was saying these days idiots are thinking that instead of achieving actual equality, the roles should just be swapped. Though I will admit that I have misunderstood the wider definition of mysogony, I've only seen the context of the word as only hatred.

Fair enough, but nobody is talking about swapping roles here, just that women should be treated equally. If there is a female villain who is incredibly strong then there should be no uproar about her gender/sex, she should be treated the same as any other villain in the franchise's history.

Agreed, there will always be a backlash, but that with any topic. Besides, this is the dragonball community, the sex of the character will be the least of their concerns. Power levels, design and the pilaf gang will probably come first

[ryou766]

This reminds me of a scene from the latest Mob Psycho 100 episode, which touched the subject of hitting women when Shigeo was up against an insanely strong woman.
[spoiler]




[/spoiler]

[A Man named RJ]

That's fine. You don't have to agree, I'm going to watch regardless and I don't have a problem with a female villain. I just personally would find it very hard to believe in that sense and I would also know its just to be PC rather than an organic part of the story.

What the hell are you talking about? Biology doesn't make men the strongest by any means, have you seen some of the women the world had in boxing, the olypics, mma, body building, etc? And if your going by DB rules;

#18, a cyborg with no interest in fighting at all broke Vegeta's arm like a twig. She was stronger than him. Beat his ass at his peak form, and only walked away with a few scuffs. So ???

On average men are stronger than women. Sure there are exceptions (this is an average) but that's what biology intended.
To imply otherwise is a grievous ignorance toward Biology, Anatomy (Make of the human body - men are stockier in the upper body for a reason), and Chemistry (Hormones)

of course Dragon Ball is fiction so it really doesn't matter, but to imply biology is an "excuse" in real life is like me saying that's just an "excuse" whenever you say men cannot give birth - or lactate - or have a period
Women Boxing doesn't mean anything when some of the best professional women's teams cant even outmatch High-school boy's teams or old guys who smoke all day and are no longer athletic
Men also have better teamwork skills in regards to getting things done. Survivor UK accidentally made a case study for this.
(BTW women have a higher tolerance to pain, and have much more flexible bodies)

This is not some construct, this is a Biological fact

That is all I will say to this topic. Deviating to explain this makes me feel like I'm walking on eggshells with the mods

The show is already called misogynistic for the total sausage fest it is and how takes strong female characters and demotes the to the small of being "the mom (TM)" by both viewer and non-viewers.

just because 18 became a mom doesnt make her some "demoted small" That argument REALLY doesnt work in a series that became the Goku and Vegeta Show Literally everyone who isn't Goku or vegeta became useless even the gods who arent Beerus and Whis - we shall call it "Useless Egalitarianism." If you think the show is misogynistic because there are mostly stocky guys fighting, why don't I complain that the main leads of the Winx Club, or any of the Precure franchises are Misandrist because they're all beautiful women/girls.
Also the show (as per the demographic)is FOR BOYS Young and Teenage!

What is with this whole no feminism thing? I don't get it. You can have both in a character. I don't think Dragon Ball is quite there yet but if they could they can and it's not a bad thing.

Creating a "feminist" character is just pandering. Making a character with a social agenda behind them (unless the series is explicitly satirical) makes the character come off as a token, and limits them to being an archetype. - which is nonsense. My persional opinions of Feminism aside (And trust me, they aren't good), I'm saying to create the character AS A GOOD CHARACTER FIRST. Why do you think so many people (men and women) latched onto Bayonetta? Because who doesnt wanna be a sexy badass who wrecks shit like it was Friday?

Anybody can relate to a good character
Nobody can relate to a stereotype (again, outside of explicit satire)

My entire point has just been to avoid pandering when creating the character.

[Shin]

That's fine. You don't have to agree, I'm going to watch regardless and I don't have a problem with a female villain. I just personally would find it very hard to believe in that sense and I would also know its just to be PC rather than an organic part of the story.

What the hell are you talking about? Biology doesn't make men the strongest by any means, have you seen some of the women the world had in boxing, the olypics, mma, body building, etc? And if your going by DB rules;

#18, a cyborg with no interest in fighting at all broke Vegeta's arm like a twig. She was stronger than him. Beat his ass at his peak form, and only walked away with a few scuffs. So ???

On average men are stronger than women. Sure there are exceptions (this is an average) but that's what biology intended.
To imply otherwise is a grievous ignorance toward Biology, Anatomy (Make of the human body - men are stockier in the upper body for a reason), and Chemistry (Hormones)

of course Dragon Ball is fiction so it really doesn't matter, but to imply biology is an "excuse" in real life is like me saying that's just an "excuse" whenever you say men cannot give birth - or lactate - or have a period
Women Boxing doesn't mean anything when some of the best professional women's teams cant even outmatch High-school boy's teams or old guys who smoke all day and are no longer athletic
Men also have better teamwork skills in regards to getting things done. Survivor UK accidentally made a case study for this.
(BTW women have a higher tolerance to pain, and have much more flexible bodies)

This is not some construct, this is a Biological fact

That is all I will say to this topic. Deviating to explain this makes me feel like I'm walking on eggshells with the mods

The show is already called misogynistic for the total sausage fest it is and how takes strong female characters and demotes the to the small of being "the mom (TM)" by both viewer and non-viewers.

just because 18 became a mom doesnt make her some "demoted small" That argument REALLY doesnt work in a series that became the Goku and Vegeta Show. If you think the show is misogynistic because there are mostly stocky guys fighting.

Also the show (as per the demographic)is FOR BOYS Young and Teenage! Why don't I complain that the main leads of the Winx Club, or any of the Precure franchises are Misandrist because they're all beautiful women/girls.

What is with this whole no feminism thing? I don't get it. You can have both in a character. I don't think Dragon Ball is quite there yet but if they could they can and it's not a bad thing.

Creating a "feminist" character is just pandering. Making a character with a social agenda behind them (unless the series is explicitly satirical) makes the character come off as a token, and limits them to being an archetype. - which is nonsense. My persional opinions of Feminism aside (And trust me, they arent good), I'm saying to create the character AS A GOOD CHARACTER FIRST. Why do you think so many people (men and women) latched onto Bayonetta? Because who doesnt wanna be a sexy badass who wrecks shit like it was Friday?

Anybody can relate to a good character
Nobody can relate to a stereotype.

We are saying we want a well written antagonist, who's a woman, with no dumb stereotypes. That is all.

My persional opinions of Feminism aside (And trust me, they arent good),

lmao ok?

[A Man named RJ]

Your misguided chivalry is a huge example of how deeply ingrained misogyny is in modern culture.

No it isn't! Socety is definitly sexist, but you are misusing the word misogyny. It is not hatred against woman, it's society thinking taking whiny idiots seriously that equality is simply making the previously 'In-Power' side less equal and that they can't comit the buzzwords they spout.

Misogyny (/mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including social exclusion, sex discrimination, hostility, androcentrism, patriarchy, and male privilege ideas, belittling of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.

The idea that all women are delicate and must be protected, regardless of their deeds, is ingrained prejudice from the days when women were no more than the property of a man, it's discrimination based on sex and androcentrist view. Before you try and come at someone on social issues maybe you should do some research first.
And what the actual fuck are you talking about "making the previously in-power side less equal"? Who are you even talking to, because it sure as hell isn't me. Not treating all women as helpless beings that need to be protected isn't putting men any lower in society, unless your societal view of a man is one who protects women, in which case you are all kinds of messed up.

That definition makes me skeptical. The Justification segment of it is really long and arbitrary, like it's trying to make ANYTHING sexist. - and filled with buzzwords such as "patriarchy," and "male privilege ideas" and to the whole "sexual objectification of women" Sexual objectification being an idea - a theory, but not necessarily a solid fact - and the basis of which is wholly ingrained in the personal opinion.


May I inquire what dictionary you got this from?

[Yomi]

This kinda feels like asking for more Male characters in Magical Girl animes, or High School animes.
Do we really need to share genitalia to identify with a character? I didn't think we did...

[Kanassa]

just because 18 became a mom doesnt make her some "demoted small" That argument REALLY doesnt work in a series that became the Goku and Vegeta Show Literally everyone who isn't Goku or vegeta became useless even the gods who arent Beerus and Whis - we shall call it "Useless Egalitarianism." If you think the show is misogynistic because there are mostly stocky guys fighting, why don't I complain that the main leads of the Winx Club, or any of the Precure franchises are Misandrist because they're all beautiful women/girls.

To be fair, I do not think the poster you were quoting was saying Dragonball was misogynistic, just that it had already been called as such. If I remember the context of the full comment right, wasn't it arguing that the comments that would be caused shouldn't amtter as those people already view Dragonball as misogynistic?

[Shin]

No it isn't! Socety is definitly sexist, but you are misusing the word misogyny. It is not hatred against woman, it's society thinking taking whiny idiots seriously that equality is simply making the previously 'In-Power' side less equal and that they can't comit the buzzwords they spout.

Misogyny (/mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is the hatred of, contempt for, or prejudice against women or girls. Misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including social exclusion, sex discrimination, hostility, androcentrism, patriarchy, and male privilege ideas, belittling of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.

The idea that all women are delicate and must be protected, regardless of their deeds, is ingrained prejudice from the days when women were no more than the property of a man, it's discrimination based on sex and androcentrist view. Before you try and come at someone on social issues maybe you should do some research first.
And what the actual fuck are you talking about "making the previously in-power side less equal"? Who are you even talking to, because it sure as hell isn't me. Not treating all women as helpless beings that need to be protected isn't putting men any lower in society, unless your societal view of a man is one who protects women, in which case you are all kinds of messed up.

That definition makes me skeptical. The Justification segment of it is really long and arbitrary, like it's trying to make ANYTHING sexist. - and filled with buzzwords such as "patriarchy, and male privellage"


May I inquire what dictionary you got this from?

"Buzzwords" that explain what heavily affects modern media right? We can't pretend like all of this doesn't influence society. ESPECIALLY in a children's show in Japan. ( )

[A Man named RJ]

just because 18 became a mom doesnt make her some "demoted small" That argument REALLY doesnt work in a series that became the Goku and Vegeta Show Literally everyone who isn't Goku or vegeta became useless even the gods who arent Beerus and Whis - we shall call it "Useless Egalitarianism." If you think the show is misogynistic because there are mostly stocky guys fighting, why don't I complain that the main leads of the Winx Club, or any of the Precure franchises are Misandrist because they're all beautiful women/girls.

To be fair, I do not think the poster you were quoting was saying Dragonball was misogynistic, just that it had already been called as such. If I remember the context of the full comment right, wasn't it arguing that the comments that would be caused shouldn't amtter as those people already view Dragonball as misogynistic?

Fair enough, And I agree with the statement if it's as you're putting it. However I can still criticize the idea and why it's the most ridiculous thing ever