Can anyone explain this paradox? | Theorists I summon you!

[Terez]

I think it's highly likely we do have a bootstrap paradox situation enabled by Zamasu's ability to move between timelines with the green rings, but until we know more about his plans and the creation of Black, it's all prediction and speculation. We'll be able to better map out how this arc works in the grand scheme of the series' time-travel once it's finished.

Agreed, but it's still fun (FOR ME) to try to puzzle it out in the meantime. Missing pieces make the theorizing more challenging. As someone who has been theorizing for a long time, I can say with certainty that it's not even about being right, or at least that being wrong a lot doesn't make it any less fun to try. The more complicated the mystery, the more fun the speculation (and the less likely I'm going to be 100% right no matter how hard I try).

[Geekdom101]

What's wrong with theories? I can understand if some people don't want to participate in the theorizing, but I don't understand why other people theorizing is so bothersome. To me, this is one of the most exciting aspects of Super, because back in the day when we were watching DBZ as it came out in the US (those of us who are old enough), everything was spoiled for us because it came out in Japan years before. So we didn't have the luxury of playing the theory game. Some of us enjoy that.

I'm cool with it bro, what I'm saying is the sheer amount of ones I get from people are VERY difficult to keep track of and sometimes, we should just wait and see.

[Geekdom101]

I heard from Geekdom101 that Toriyama said this arc will or might have plotholes

So I guess it's up to the fandom to explain this timeloop.

As it stands right now, there are now more than 4 timelines so this might be a factor to explain it.

I never said that LOL. Toriyama's quote was about how the timelines may be confusing, but just go with it.

oh sorry
I thought you said something about plot holes in one of your videos lol

I may have said it COULD have holes cause Toriyama's writing does sometimes, but Herms and I outlined the entire interview in a video and dissected it, and in there, Toriyama just mentioned the timelines might not make much sense right away.

[Geekdom101]

I think it's highly likely we do have a bootstrap paradox situation enabled by Zamasu's ability to move between timelines with the green rings, but until we know more about his plans and the creation of Black, it's all prediction and speculation. We'll be able to better map out how this arc works in the grand scheme of the series' time-travel once it's finished.

Agreed, but it's still fun (FOR ME) to try to puzzle it out in the meantime. Missing pieces make the theorizing more challenging. As someone who has been theorizing for a long time, I can say with certainty that it's not even about being right, or at least that being wrong a lot doesn't make it any less fun to try. The more complicated the mystery, the more fun the speculation (and the less likely I'm going to be 100% right no matter how hard I try).

Its fun for all of us bro. This is one of the most engaging arcs in the entire series.

[Cetra]

... but no one in Super has yet altered the past they know for themselves or for someone else ...

Altering the past is not the same as a timesplit. Just to add that to the conversation. Also I already agreed with Devil that the show has not shown it, still that is how timelines "work" in its overall concept. Basically the rings are the only thing to exclude this part of the concept other than that it would be self-explanatory.

[Geekdom101]

I made this: https://youtu.be/QGLZtPqbdtk

Kinda pulled it out of my butt, but i hope you enjoy!

[UpFromTheSkies]

You guys should watch the movie Predestination, maybe it will give you deeper understanding of time paradoxes... or possibly confuse you even more. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Cipher]

... but no one in Super has yet altered the past they know for themselves or for someone else ...

Altering the past is not the same as a timesplit. Just to add that to the conversation. Also I already agreed with Devil that the show has not shown it, still that is how timelines "work" in its overall concept. Basically the rings are the only thing to exclude this part of the concept other than that it would be self-explanatory.

Altering the known past always creates a time split. That's how Dragon Ball's time-travel works. It's returning to a parallel timeline after the point it deviates that doesn't necessarily create further splits (though it could, if, say, Super Trunks happened to go all the way back to the Cell Games, such that there were now two Trunks there; that would be altering his past and would create more splits; popping back in after his last departure should be fine though).

[Cetra]

Altering the known past always creates a time split. That's how Dragon Ball's time-travel works.

That is NOT altering the past. "Altering" would mean it would change something that was there before. Opening up a new timeline through something different happening that does not happen on one timeline does not change a single thing about that timeline, therefore terms like "altering" or "changing" are semantically misused - a mistake that many people make and about as wrong as using the words teleporting and warping synonymously or calling a Strawberry botanically a berry which it isn't. Alternate Timelines "exist" (in theory) exactly for the reason that you cannot change something on one and the same timeline as well as the fact that two opposite states cannot exist on that same timeline. Call it splitting, call it opening up a path, et cetera but altering is extremely misleading. You do not need to tell me how Cell travelling around and not travelling around creates a fork, et cetera. I know all those things. This is about the usage of certain words. If you are aware of that and just mean the word with a different meaning, feel free. I can assure you I am well more informed about causality, the concept of a bootstrap paradox, a multivesal tree, an impossible time change, et cetera. And that is exactly where "altering" is way more fitting. For the impossible time change. If you say you actually meant it differently, fine. Different context always allows different use of words. But be aware of it.

[Cipher]

Okay, sure. But I'm just looking for a term to differentiate between Trunks causing a different outcome within events he already knows -- say, giving Goku the heart medicine, which creates an alternate timeline -- and coming and going between new events in an already-divergent timeline, which doesn't.

If you can suggest a better term than "altering," feel free to give me one. I'm aware the effects of time travel don't produce changes within a single timeline. But the reason the timelines split is that someone goes back and adds a new or different element to events that have already occurred; the new outcome continues in its own timeline, but the events that originally happened are preserved in their own timeline as well.

Also, did you include an assumption that you're more capable of sussing out the rules of fictional time travel than I am? Not only was that completely unnecessary, it's probably not true.

[Cetra]

Okay, sure. But I'm just looking for a term to differentiate between Trunks causing a different outcome within events he already knows -- say, giving Goku the heart medicine, which creates an alternate timeline -- and coming and going between new events in an already-divergent timeline, which doesn't.

If you can suggest a better term than "altering," feel free to give me one. I'm aware the effects of time travel don't produce changes within a single timeline. But the reason the timelines split is that someone goes back and adds a new or different element to events that have already occurred; the new outcome continues in its own timeline, but the events that originally happened are preserved in their own timeline as well.

Actually the entire "splitting through differences/not being able to change a past as a time that was compared to still remains unaffected" part is really all I need. Good to see that you wanted to understand what I was saying we have come to understanding what we both said.

Also, did you include an assumption that you're more capable of sussing out the rules of fictional time travel than I am? Not only was that completely unnecessary, it's probably not true.

I do not know where you want to have read that but if anything you were the one explaining Dragon Ball's time travel like I would not know it, also using a word then that is extremely misleading as a try to just change something would automatically not change something but go a different way that the other timeline has nothing to do with. I really do not know why you had to edit that in now that we finally had the agreement.