"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Jinzoningen MULE]

It's really not. Have you read Toyble's AF?

I think he was more pointing to the part where you said the guy apparently doesn't know the manga as well as you and some others, just because he doesn't have a big problem with Toyotaro's homages. Kinda condescending there.

I wasn't trying to condescend, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I was referring to people who are deeply familiar with the manga's art, to those of us who value integrity of the drawings as much as fans of she show value 4:3 and film grain on old releases.

For someone who isn't intimately familiar with the drawings, of course Toyotaro's tracing is just as jarring.

[Bansho64]

I wasn't trying to condescend, maybe I wasn't clear enough. I was referring to people who are deeply familiar with the manga's art, to those of us who value integrity of the drawings as much as fans of she show value 4:3 and film grain on old releases.

I'm still not 100% with you on that one but I do understand what you're trying to convey. I don't think it necessarily think it has to do with integrity and all that but I get whatcha sayin'. That's not what you said in your first post though. You said this,

Maybe it's not jarring for you because you don't know the original manga as well as some of us.

This is came across as kinda rude because you were questioning dbgtFO's knowledge of the manga, just because he didn't have as much of a problem with Toyotaro's copying/homages as you did.

[dbgtFO]

I own the entirety of the manga in my local language and knows it far better than I do the original anime series.
The fact that I happened to have that opinion really had to draw into question my knowledge of the manga?
Really?
Come on now

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I wonder how Viz's Super manga will be formatted. The single volumes were 12 chapters, so I'm interested if they're going to keep it like that.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

I wonder how Viz's Super manga will be formatted. The single volumes were 12 chapters, so I'm interested if they're going to keep it like that.

It will probably be the same way that DBS has been released in Japan, which seems to be 9 chapters per volume. If it goes long enough, they'll probably make a 3-in-1 edition.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Oh, I had no idea it was released that way in Japan. Thanks for that.

[Noah]

Goku mentioned Super Saiyan Blue using stamina in the anime, too. It's not maintaining Super Saiyan Blue that's the problem, it's consecutively switching the power on and off.

So was Vegeta really that dumb to waste energy with using SSGSS to fight briefly with Black? Damn

[Patrolman Jaco]

So you're saying a you've never had a sweater that stretches? Unless you only wear skinny jeans amd tank tops I'd say that most of your clothes could probably stretch a lot before ripping.

Not to a near Hulk-like build no. Seems to me that Toei was just being lazy.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

I don't see how that anime picture reusing a shot has anything to do woth my argument, either. I said that the anime has more reason to do callbacks from the original anime than the manga because the anime only seems to do them during specific scenes that have the same transformation, attack, etc. and not just throwing in a whole bunch of poses from the original manga in a fight.

You're complaining about the manga copying and pasting things from the original manga so of course the anime copying from the previous anime should have lots to do with your argument. No being the same transformation and the same attack does not give you more reason to reuse composition, animation sequences, etc. Especially when there are factors that should prevent them from looking virtually the same, like with Future Trunks using SS Grade 3 again. A rehash is a rehash you're just making excuses for the anime.

Ah yes, the two face lunch lol. I hate that, but completely forgot about it. It's not really a homage though, because it's done throughout the dragonBall series so much. It's basically a staple at this point.

Again with trunks, it makes sense because both scenes are directly related. Although the hair and shirt doing that is stupid.

If you're going to use excuses like "staple" and "directly related" the same can be applied to the manga, for instance people were calling out Future Trunks catching Dabura's sword as an "homage" to the original manga even though that's a fairly common trope.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... BladeBlock
or Kibito dying by Dabura's hands in FT's timeline just being a parallel to the same event in the main timeline.

The only really obnoxious "homage" in DBS, is Piccolo's death in the RoF arc, not only is that a visual retread, but they were essentially reusing character moments from a previous arc.

[Miracles]

Why does the manga have to say that he can't? That has nothing to do with this. They literally cannot be the same story because different events happened in the anime and the manga.

Because Dragonball Super manga and anime are checked by Toriyama. If story says one can't do something and the other does it then that would be a contradiction. Different story. However what we witnessed is supplemented info from the anime. None of this refutes the manga in anyway. The anime and manga of Dragonball Super simply compliments one another. Toriyama HIMSELF checks each chapter making sure it is on track!

But he didn't, he won the tournament in different ways. The metaphor totally passed by your head.

Let me try to explain in a more practical way. I'm going to Columbus, Ohio at 9AM on 10/1/2016, then I'm going to Charlotte, North Carolina at 9AM on 10/1/2016. After going to these places, I will head immediately home, no extra stops.

According to the principles you're going by, that timeline makes perfect sense. You're saying that I can be at the same place at the same time, and as long as the end result is the same, or the other trip could conceivably have been made, there are no contradictions. That's clearly not the case.

This example is not good. Those two trips are a clear contradiction. Two entirely different locations at the same time.
You're example proves my point further. Goku did not say that he could use kaioken in SSJB in anime and can not in the manga! No match....Thank you!
At the end of the day Toriyama checks and approves both, they are the same story!

I'm quickly going to add this to the whole discussion, I'm sure it'll put things into perspective.

Goku and Vegeta have both fully mastered the SSJ-form. Which means that just sustaining the form doesn't wear them out, whereas forms as SSJ2 and SSJ3 do (although SSJ2 does it to a lesser degree than SSJ3).
The SJB-form has been stated as simply being an SSJ form, infused with godly ki. So the basic rule of the fully powered SSJ-form still stands while using god ki.

Now, in the anime, this whole thing has been respected, and Vegeta vs Hit and Goku vs Hit basically came down to Hit having the edge with the time leap technique, and him continuously improving throughout the fight. Not a mention of SSB draining stamina or anything.
In the manga, however, Goku goes SSG, because of the fact that the blue form supposedly drains his stamina too quickly. As proven by Vegeta's state by the time he got to fight Hit. In the anime, Vegeta was simply outclassed, while the manga makes it so he loses the battle due to being worn out, rather than to being outclassed.

The main story is still the same, they're part of the same main continuity. But certain parts have played out so differently that it's acceptable to call the grey area in between the two a different continuity.

Episode 38...Hit tells Goku to transform and Goku tells him later, that drains my stamina real bad.
Therefore the manga supplementing as to why Vegeta got bodied by Hit so badly because he wasted too much energy!
Toriyama writes the plot outline for the anime, and checks it and approves it.
Toriyama himself checks and approves each storyboard for every chapter and OK's it.
Stating their two different stories is contradicting truth and not in line with Toriyama's authority.

[Bansho64]

Toriyama writes the plot outline for the anime, and checks it and approves it.
Toriyama himself checks and approves each storyboard for every chapter and OK's it.
Stating their two different stories is contradicting truth and not in line with Toriyama's authority.

Miracles, no offense, I don't think you understand what continuity means. Stories do not have to contradict each other to be separate. If different events happen, contradicting or not, they are two different stories in two different continuities.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

This has been explained to you beyond all reason. Just because Toriyama approves both, doesn't mean that they're exactly the same (which is necessary for it to be considered the same continuity).

Episode 38...Hit tells Goku to transform and Goku tells him later, that drains my stamina real bad.
Therefore the manga supplementing as to why Vegeta got bodied by Hit so badly because he wasted too much energy!

You just described different version of the same story that use a similar principle, fantastic! However, you saying this means that the rules established by one necessarily sets precedent for the other is pulled right from your ass. Never has this been established, it's total fiction straight from the depths of your imagination.

Toriyama writes the plot outline for the anime, and checks it and approves it.
Toriyama himself checks and approves each storyboard for every chapter and OK's it.

Neat, we know this. It doesn't actually mean anything, it's just one more step in the production prices, but you're right that it happens.

Stating their two different stories is contradicting truth and not in line with Toriyama's authority.

Toriyama has 0 authority here. Once approves both individual stories, both release, and then they have to stand by their own merits. However, the idea that Toriyama can't approve two contradictory stories is, once again, total fiction.


(PS: I'm still convinced that this whole thing stems from you not knowing what continuity is. Use a dictionary, a thesaurus, anything!)

[alakazam^]

So was Vegeta really that dumb to waste energy with using SSGSS to fight briefly with Black? Damn

No, that'd be manga logic.

Not to a near Hulk-like build no. Seems to me that Toei was just being lazy.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

There's nothing lazy about it. How many times have their pants been ripped off? And why haven't they? Think about it.

You're complaining about the manga copying and pasting things from the original manga so of course the anime copying from the previous anime should have lots to do with your argument. No being the same transformation and the same attack does not give you more reason to reuse composition, animation sequences, etc. Especially when there are factors that should prevent them from looking virtually the same, like with Future Trunks using SS Grade 3 again. A rehash is a rehash you're just making excuses for the anime.

If he's making excuses so are you. Of course making the same attack gives a reason to reuse stuff because that's exactly the point, it's supposed to mirror that past instance. You're conveniently forgetting that Toei had to animate everything again and spend precious time doing it, whereas Toyotarou probably spends 10~15 minutes tracing the panels he wants.

The only really obnoxious "homage" in DBS, is Piccolo's death in the RoF arc, not only is that a visual retread, but they were essentially reusing character moments from a previous arc.

That wasn't an homage, that was just a character doing stuff. As far as I remember, It wasn't even that big of a deal (except for Gohan), the plot moved forward without giving it much notice.

[Faustus]

Does Toyotaro even trace all that much anymore? I mean, sure, it was all but egregious back in his AF days, but now? He strikes me as more than capable of choreographing dynamic, thrilling battle scenes all on his own (see Beerus vs. Champa in Ch. 4 or Black vs. Trunks in Ch. 14); I certainly don't think he is borrowing poses as a crutch so much as for deliberate effect, as with the image of Trunks here. It's not like he's trying to sneak it past you; it's there to be noticed.

Now oversaturation of such visual homages makes for a different complaint, but even then I don't think he actually does it all that often. Would anyone be willing to point out some other instances?

[Miracles]

Toriyama writes the plot outline for the anime, and checks it and approves it.
Toriyama himself checks and approves each storyboard for every chapter and OK's it.
Stating their two different stories is contradicting truth and not in line with Toriyama's authority.

Miracles, no offense, I don't think you understand what continuity means. Stories do not have to contradict each other to be separate. If different events happen, contradicting or not, they are two different stories in two different continuities.

This has been explained to you beyond all reason. Just because Toriyama approves both, doesn't mean that they're exactly the same (which is necessary for it to be considered the same continuity).

Episode 38...Hit tells Goku to transform and Goku tells him later, that drains my stamina real bad.
Therefore the manga supplementing as to why Vegeta got bodied by Hit so badly because he wasted too much energy!

You just described different version of the same story that use a similar principle, fantastic! However, you saying this means that the rules established by one necessarily sets precedent for the other is pulled right from your ass. Never has this been established, it's total fiction straight from the depths of your imagination.

Toriyama writes the plot outline for the anime, and checks it and approves it.
Toriyama himself checks and approves each storyboard for every chapter and OK's it.

Neat, we know this. It doesn't actually mean anything, it's just one more step in the production prices, but you're right that it happens.

Stating their two different stories is contradicting truth and not in line with Toriyama's authority.

Toriyama has 0 authority here. Once approves both individual stories, both release, and then they have to stand by their own merits. However, the idea that Toriyama can't approve two contradictory stories is, once again, total fiction.


(PS: I'm still convinced that this whole thing stems from you not knowing what continuity is. Use a dictionary, a thesaurus, anything!)

Canon [Authority] is continuity, whatever the author says is Dragonball; Which Dragonball Super continues, that is the anime and manga of Super.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Toriyama writes the plot outline for the anime, and checks it and approves it.
Toriyama himself checks and approves each storyboard for every chapter and OK's it.
Stating their two different stories is contradicting truth and not in line with Toriyama's authority.

Miracles, no offense, I don't think you understand what continuity means. Stories do not have to contradict each other to be separate. If different events happen, contradicting or not, they are two different stories in two different continuities.

This has been explained to you beyond all reason. Just because Toriyama approves both, doesn't mean that they're exactly the same (which is necessary for it to be considered the same continuity).

Episode 38...Hit tells Goku to transform and Goku tells him later, that drains my stamina real bad.
Therefore the manga supplementing as to why Vegeta got bodied by Hit so badly because he wasted too much energy!

You just described different version of the same story that use a similar principle, fantastic! However, you saying this means that the rules established by one necessarily sets precedent for the other is pulled right from your ass. Never has this been established, it's total fiction straight from the depths of your imagination.

Toriyama writes the plot outline for the anime, and checks it and approves it.
Toriyama himself checks and approves each storyboard for every chapter and OK's it.

Neat, we know this. It doesn't actually mean anything, it's just one more step in the production prices, but you're right that it happens.

Stating their two different stories is contradicting truth and not in line with Toriyama's authority.

Toriyama has 0 authority here. Once approves both individual stories, both release, and then they have to stand by their own merits. However, the idea that Toriyama can't approve two contradictory stories is, once again, total fiction.


(PS: I'm still convinced that this whole thing stems from you not knowing what continuity is. Use a dictionary, a thesaurus, anything!)

Canon [Authority] is continuity, whatever the author says is Dragonball; Which is Dragonball Super, that is the anime and manga of Super, is so.

No, that's not what continuity is. Continuity implies a single, non-contradictory chain or web of events. If there are two different versions of one event, you can deduce one specific canon that incorperates both, but you cannot meld them into one continuity (unless you're personally re-writing it, in which case, all bets are off).

[ekrolo2]

The manga and anime do not exist in the same continuity as one another. Entire events happen completely differently making them impossible to exist in the same space.

Blacks introduction is completely different between the two, as is Vegeta vs Magetta, how Goku goes about defeating Hit, how the battle between Goku & Beerus happens,...

Just because these are kind of similar does not make them the same continuity/universe. That's like me saying TDKReturns and Batman v Superman are the same continuity because they've got a pissed off old Batman fighting Superman in power armor.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

The manga and anime do not exist in the same continuity as one another. Entire events happen completely differently making them impossible to exist in the same space.

Blacks introduction is completely different between the two, as is Vegeta vs Magetta, how Goku goes about defeating Hit, how the battle between Goku & Beerus happens,...

Just because these are kind of similar does not make them the same continuity/universe. That's like me saying TDKReturns and Batman v Superman are the same continuity because they've got a pissed off old Batman fighting Superman in power armor.

I think we've already gotten to the root of the issue. Miracles was confusing continuity with Toriyama's canon.

[FortuneSSJ]

-About Volume 2-

Volume 1 cover (front and back) is the best manga cover I ever saw, so I'm curious to see if Toyotaro will top it.
I'm also expecting a new ToriyamaxToyotaro interview.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

-About Volume 2-

Volume 1 cover (front and back) is the best manga cover I ever saw, so I'm curious to see if Toyotaro will top it.
I'm also expecting a new ToriyamaxToyotaro interview.

Hopefully something more original. But I can't deny it wasn't a good cover, I guess the homage in that case makes sense.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

-About Volume 2-

Volume 1 cover (front and back) is the best manga cover I ever saw, so I'm curious to see if Toyotaro will top it.
I'm also expecting a new ToriyamaxToyotaro interview.

Since this manga will reach into the Zamasu Arc, I hope we get a worthwhile cover.