"Future" Trunks Arc Timeline & Paradox Discussion Thread

[Marlowe89]

It's a bit of a stretch, but as far as explanations go it's far more elegant (in my opinion, at least) than theories on broken causal time loops and time rings preserving Black as a 'leftover' of an overwritten history that should've vanished, contradicting time travel mechanics as Dragonball had previously presented them to us.

You're certainly right about that. Personally, I still don't understand the logic behind the "broken time loop" theory - if Beerus' actions were a fundamental part of the loop (and we know that they indeed would be, since Beerus' investigation is what led to Goku fighting Zamasu) then he couldn't have "broken" or "interfered" with that loop since his decisions were partially driving the entire circular chain of events to start with. Beerus also doesn't have the same temporal powers that his attendant Whis possesses, so he couldn't have changed the natural flow of his timeline without manipulating time itself.

But as you said, if Toei happens to explain this further in the upcoming episodes and they do it in a way that resolves the current issue, I'll be all for that.

[Shinomori]

I've been on youtube and seen various explanations and attempts to try and reconcile what we are seeing in Super. While interesting, the only real answer to all these things is going into the past, whether it be through Trunks' time machine or Whis rewinding time, creates multiple timelines. This is what things really boil down to. My biggest problem here is, if that is the answer, why doesn't Super highlight it as the answer? Of course this could be explained later on, but I really wish they would point it out now. So far it appears they only want us to think along the lines of their being only two timelines. One being the present timeline, while the other is Future Trunks' timeline. With that, if you think along those lines, you will be absolutely confused about what's going on. How can Black be alive if Beerus killed him? It makes no sense if Black is the exact same Zamasu Beerus killed. How can Goku still be alive if Black switched bodies and killed him? Again, makes no sense if they are all one in the same.

Now, it's not as though the show hasn't made mention there are many timelines. For one, along with the silver time ring, there were four green time rings in Gowasu's box, which he stated were created by someone messing with time. So if each ring represents how many times "time" was affected, there are then at least 4 or 5 timelines if you include the silver ring. Also we have the scene with Future Trunks explaining his timeline with present Trunks. However, these scenes are very minimal in the overall scope of things and are ultimately canceled out with the show harping on the present and Trunks' timlines. We even have a scene earlier in the arc where Whis was explaining how changing one thing can have great implications on the future. Making it seem as though time is linear and that you can effect your own time by going into the past. (Which we already know is not true as seen in the Android Saga in DBZ)

So this latest episode kind of bugged me on this point in alluding to multiple timelines being the answer, but explicitly wanting the audience to only think about the two relevant timelines as being the only ones.

[dbs fanboy]

For me it was obvious since the beginning that Black was from another timeline, not only for the inconsistences that you just said but because earlier in ep 60, Trunks's said:"If my Future was fixed why would i be here"? it doesn't make any sense to commit the inconsistence that Trunks explained earlier.

Also if Black came from the main timeline,then once Trunks went to the past, he would find Goku dead.
So we know that Black came from a timeline where Trunks didn't warn the Z fighters about Black. The mistery would be wich timeline?, i honestly think that is the #2, you know, the timeline that Trunks saved before getting killed by Cell.

[Shinomori]

For me it was obvious since the beginning that Black was from another timeline, not only for the inconsistences that you just said but because earlier in ep 60, Trunks's said:"If my Future was fixed why would i be here"? it doesn't make any sense to commit the inconsistence that Trunks explained earlier.

Also if Black came from the main timeline,then once Trunks went to the past, he would find Goku dead.
So we know that Black came from a timeline where Trunks didn't warn the Z fighters about Black. The mistery would be wich timeline?, i honestly think that is the #2, you know, the timeline that Trunks saved before getting killed by Cell.

Yep. (By the way, I like your avatar. Every time I look at Black using his saber move while flying, I think of the Gundam series) Now probably the most confusing part about all of this is the show setting things up to where Black would have never existed had Goku not fought Zamasu in universe 10. Thus creating an infinite paradox loop. I don't like that in itself, but I really dislike it for this show because now I'm mostly convinced we won't get great answers to the whole Zamasu/Black arc. For one, what is a universe 10 Kaio doing in universe 7? How did this mess end up affecting Future Trunks timeline specifically?

[dbs fanboy]

For me it was obvious since the beginning that Black was from another timeline, not only for the inconsistences that you just said but because earlier in ep 60, Trunks's said:"If my Future was fixed why would i be here"? it doesn't make any sense to commit the inconsistence that Trunks explained earlier.

Also if Black came from the main timeline,then once Trunks went to the past, he would find Goku dead.
So we know that Black came from a timeline where Trunks didn't warn the Z fighters about Black. The mistery would be wich timeline?, i honestly think that is the #2, you know, the timeline that Trunks saved before getting killed by Cell.

Yep. (By the way, I like your avatar. Every time I look at Black using his saber move while flying, I think of the Gundam series) Now probably the most confusing part about all of this is the show setting things up to where Black would have never existed had Goku not fought Zamasu in universe 10. Thus creating an infinite paradox loop. I don't like that in itself, but I really dislike it for this show because now I'm mostly convinced we won't get great answers to the whole Zamasu/Black arc. For one, what is a universe 10 Kaio doing in universe 7? How did this mess end up affecting Future Trunks timeline specifically?

Thanks!!!
I hope they explain more, because,while i don't have issues understanding this, what i'm doing is headcanon, and i really hope that Black is not from the main timeline but a timeline where he met Goku for whatever reason.

[dbs fanboy]

Thinking a little this is the conclusion I reached to explain the timelines without making a time paradox:

We have 4 timelines:
#1: Future Trunks timeline, where the current arc is taking place (Black arc)
#2: DBS main timeline
#3: Cell's timeline
#4: Timeline where Zamasu changes his body with Goku's and kills him and his family. I assume this timeline separated from the main timeline because Trunks travelled to the second timeline, so this is what would have happened if Trunks never travelled back to the past.

Everything starts in timeline 4 (here the Black arc never happened), for some reason Goku and Vegeta meets Zamasu, the most possible explanation I find to this is that they met in the 12 Universes tournament, Goku showed interest in Zamasu and after the tournament he asks Whis to take him to Universe 10 Kaioshin's Realm, they fight a little and we reach to the same conclution that was showed in Ep 53. Zamasu gets annoyed because of that, kills Gowasu, steals the time ring and uses it to find the dragon balls quickly and changes his body with Goku's, then he goes to the future looking for a partner and finds Zamasu from timeline #1, there they use the sdb to wish for immortality, they kill all the gods and then they start killing the humans until they reach the Earth in U7.

Some people say that Zamasu changed his body with Goku from DBS Ep. 1, just because of the outfit he was wearing when Black explained everything. Remember we saw Goku wearing that outfit many times through DBS being the last time in Ep 42. Also, if it was Goku from DBS ep. 1, then he wouldn't be able to fight with Trunks, fight with SSJ2 Goku, and also transform in SSR (this transformation could be explained with being Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan with evil god ki).

Also some people claim that Black never saw SSB, but that's something we don't really know, when Black saw Vegeta in SSB he was only smiling and Trunks said that he didn't get amazed by seeing SSB, so we have no idea of that.

This is a theory to avoid a time paradox and to keep things easy to understand.

Lol, that's what i assumed while watching the episode, i knew i couldn't be the only one that thinks about this.
It seems that what's confusing here is the fact that Black said that he's the Zamasu from the past that fought Goku, but if he fought Goku in another timeline where as in the main timeline, the events are placed in the present, wouldn't it make sense that Black said "the past"?, and after listening Goku's thought he would pretty much know that Goku fought with him in his timeline.
I mean, it's like when in ep 47 Trunks said "the past" to talk about the main timeline or how Black did the same while talking with Future Zamasu.

In fact, when Black said that the past didn't affect him because the time ring, i assumed that it's because he came from another timeline so anything that happens in the past of any other timeline, wouldn't have any effect on him.

Why would Toei/Toriyama create this huge paradox after the explanation Ft Trunks gave to kid Trunks about time travel in ep 60?

The other theories are confusing asf

[dbs fanboy]

The biggest issue with this is that from what we know, it should have created another green time ring like the same day Gowasu and Zamasu look at them, but ... whatever.

Wait a minute, what about if the time ring Gowasu said that appear a few time back is the one created by Trunks using the time machine?

[Cipher]

Wait a minute, what about if the time ring Gowasu said that appear a few time back is the one created by Trunks using the time machine?

That was very much the implication of that scene.

[dbs fanboy]

Wait a minute, what about if the time ring Gowasu said that appear a few time back is the one created by Trunks using the time machine?

That was very much the implication of that scene.

Then what's the issue with the time ring? i might have misinterpreted your post.

[Cipher]

Then what's the issue with the time ring? i might have misinterpreted your post.

Oh. Which instance of Trunks' time-travel were you referring to? If I recall correctly, Gowasu says the last ring appeared a few years back, which I took to refer to the whole Cell-Trunks time-travel shenanigans.

If Trunks traveling back in this storyline created a new timeline, a new ring would have shown up the very same day Gowasu and Zamasu check the box.

[dbs fanboy]

Then what's the issue with the time ring? i might have misinterpreted your post.

Oh. Which instance of Trunks' time-travel were you referring to? If I recall correctly, Gowasu says the last ring appeared a few years back, which I took to refer to the whole Cell-Trunks time-travel shenanigans.

If Trunks traveling back in this storyline created a new timeline, a new ring would have shown up the very same day Gowasu and Zamasu check the box.

That's true. Damn, Toriyama wasn't lying when he said that things would get confusing.

[Shinomori]

There's no time loop, in the original time line Zamasu would have learned about Goku from watching the tournament between U6 and U7 on God tube. He would have also seen Goku at the multiverse tournament, which is what I had originally thought was the case, but when they swapped bodies Goku didn't recognize Zamasu, so he must have seen him from God tube instead.

That's an excellent point. Perhaps some might say it's nitpicking because Goku didn't have a lot of time to react to the switch before dying, but he didn't say anything like "Why do I look like Zamasu". Plus if Black really is the present Zamasu, when he switched with Goku, why was Goku farming? We know for a fact Goku was with Beerus, Whis, and Kaoshin the moment Zamasu struck Gowasu down. This is (or should be) concrete evidence that Black is a Zamasu from another timeline. Yet all in all, I have no reason to think Super will be able to give sufficient answers for all these things. I feel they just want to play on the paradox and we as fans are supposed to say "Aaaah, that's interesting".

By the way, this paradox stuff is a pet peeve of mine. I didn't like it in Terminator, and I really don't like it in Dragon Ball because we in fact have a better explanation in the show already with multiple timelines. (I still love Terminator of course, just hate that paradox. )

[Captain Strawberry]

There is no starting point or at least not anymore.

Now I am probably going to contradict myself, probably as the timeline rules in Dragon ball, you create another timeline so in other words, you're universe hopping.

Also I would like to say, rules of the rings 'effects' may be different to how the Trunks time machine even though the key difference is going to the future (only) instead of the past.

Black went back to the past. This led to... Black being created because Zamasu had met Goku which becomes a circle.

This is kinda of inspired by Izanami where Itachi 'creates' an eternal loop of illusions. Also inspired by Prince of Persia.

What do I mean there not being a starting point anymore?

So in order for idea to make sense, we have to think outside the box which is to think that the past, present and future is happening at the SAME time.

Yes, this is going to involve a bit of predestination but just hold on.

Prince from Prince of Persia: "Most people think time is like a river that flows swift and sure in one direction, but I have seen the face of time, and I can tell you: They are wrong. Time is an ocean in a storm.

The reason I brought this up is because people like to think of time as a straight line. Following me right? What if it is a bit more complex than that.

Imagine a pen and a tablet writing everything that you do and before you do and what you 'may' do however, you still have to work for that destiny in order to achieve it.

Now imagine there are suddenly changes.

Imagine a race track that was planned all the way through, you're running through it. But suddenly, you're certain action starts to change the tract out of nowhere.

So try to think of a sub timeline within the same timeline. X was supposed to happen, it was written this way but Beerus interfering had made it why Y. It was supposed to be like that.

With the Pen and tablet analogy, Zamasu originally was not killed by Beerus, it was written that he would survive.It was Zamasu's fate but he changed it. Reminds of the Prince changing his own fate from the Dahaka as he was supposed to die. Following me? So in way, the past and the present and future is happening at the happening at the same time. Two points are connecting X and Y, as Beerus was about to kill Zamasu, a point in time was written where Zamasu had already left the time stream so he was outside the bubble.

Shoutout to Geekdom101 and Sawyer7mage

So what if the original way it was written was different.

In a sub timeline, things went out differently, they were in a way to say, written differently of the same tablet (universe).

But that might be a contradiction as that would create a new tablet. That may be so but the nonlinear part of time is still the same timeline as the ring goes to the future and thus does not create a new timeline (or atleast I don't think so). And thus in the ORIGINAL written version of the timeline, the original race track, Zamasu had met Goku (probably) in a slightly different way even though Whis was the one that directed Goku for Goku become the 'catalyst' to become Black. So what if, Black had to exist (obviously), Black had to be written to exist and Trunks was the catalyst for Goku to become the catlyst. Whaaaat??? I mean in the nonlinear part of the time, the original time, Goku would eventually meet Zamasu somehow or in someway but not in the same speed or same intentions. So Trunks was seemingly going to speed up the creation of Goku Black but did not since Beerus stopped the cycle/loop. So it was in way of saying, Goku's destiny to meet Zamasu regardless of how it went about, whatever reason. Time wanted Goku to meet Zamasu.

In other words, it was written they would meet anyway and thus it would begin to create a cycle as the original original starting point.

I'm okay if you strongly think I am wrong, I too, lost myself a bit writing this at times but I think this is how I make sense of things.

[Nejishiki]

The only time Goku Black traveled to the past is when he followed the trail Future Trunks' time machine left. In his era, he traveled forward in time to make a wish and then parallel to Future Trunks' era to team up with Future Zamasu. They traveled forward into the future twice to make two wishes. I believe that's the extent of his time traveling, if I didn't miss anything. None of these accounts created new timelines. It's to my understanding Beerus would destroy all existences of Zamasu in normal circumstances. It's the extraordinary that was unaccounted for. Goku Black owes his survival to the Time Ring and his partner, Future Zamasu, his immortality. Those two interfered with history instead. The original course of history was lost before Dragon Ball Super. Goku Black is just another result of the original split, whether Future Trunks was ultimately responsible or not. This is my personal take, but I'd like to think Zamasu and Goku meeting wasn't meant to occur in proper history. We're withstanding never-ending consequences. I'm giving Goku Black and Future Zamasu credit for their taunting there. The series continues to play with parallel worlds taking off on their own. For the rest of your analysis, I view time in the same light somewhat. Perceiving it as a higher being reveals everything as fluid reality.

[dbs fanboy]

Off topic.
If this is so confusing to us, then how are the kids going to understand it?

[TheMikado]

Off topic.
If this is so confusing to us, then how are the kids going to understand it?

They aren't, the story seems to be written with the attitude that "they're 7, they just want to see cool fights... who care that it doesn't make sense"

[PsionicWarrior]

Off topic.
If this is so confusing to us, then how are the kids going to understand it?

They aren't, the story seems to be written with the attitude that "they're 7, they just want to see cool fights... who care that it doesn't make sense"

The arc's real strong point IMO is its atmosphere. True, many things don't make sense at all and others are outright annoying, still the plot is interesting enough to keep people's interest, with emergence of many fan theories. I think there should be much more effort in the fighting scenes and chars facial expressions, and subtly improve the writing and the chars through future arcs, upgrading Super in a sense should be achievable, with a bit of good will from Toei. I don't have much hopes up and none at all for some aspects, still the series can slowly become better, or worse, huge possibilities happened with the universes and timelines, remains to see how it will all develop.

[Captain Strawberry]

The only time Goku Black traveled to the past is when he followed the trail Future Trunks' time machine left. In his era, he traveled forward in time to make a wish and then parallel to Future Trunks' era to team up with Future Zamasu. They traveled forward into the future twice to make two wishes. I believe that's the extent of his time traveling, if I didn't miss anything. None of these accounts created new timelines. It's to my understanding Beerus would destroy all existences of Zamasu in normal circumstances. It's the extraordinary that was unaccounted for. Goku Black owes his survival to the Time Ring and his partner, Future Zamasu, his immortality. Those two interfered with history instead. The original course of history was lost before Dragon Ball Super. Goku Black is just another result of the original split, whether Future Trunks was ultimately responsible or not. This is my personal take, but I'd like to think Zamasu and Goku meeting wasn't meant to occur in proper history. We're withstanding never-ending consequences. I'm giving Goku Black and Future Zamasu credit for their taunting there. The series continues to play with parallel worlds taking off on their own. For the rest of your analysis, I view time in the same light somewhat. Perceiving it as a higher being reveals everything as fluid reality.

I think i might have meant future instead if past

I would also would summarize my post as

Because Black used the time ring, because he traveled to the future, it did not create a new timeline hence history being rewritten. There being more than one Zamasu of the same timeline is sort of my evidence I guess

[Will]

I don't think a new timeline was created.

Before Trunks arrived in Dragon Ball Super:

In Goku's timeline, Goku will fight against Zamasu for x reason (he could know him from Kibito like in the mangas or from Godtube), Zamasu will kill gowasu and steal the time ring, make his wish, kill the Son family and travel to Trunk's timeline.

After Trunks arrived in Dragon Ball Super:

In Goku's timeline, Beerus killed Zamasu before he could make his plan.

But Black is protected by his time ring even his past is completly changed.

Goku:
"Didn't Beerus destroy you in the past?"

Black:
"It's all thanks to this time ring."
"Nothing that happens in the past can affect my current self."

[Terra-jin]

I don't think we should take Black's word for it just yet. The gods have been shown to be incorrect about their assessment of time travel mechanics, so until there's further confirmation, I wouldn't accept Black's statement as necessarily correct.