Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

[Bansho64]

I'm so sick of people comparing what they see as bad ideas to fanfiction. There's no connection. And I personally am quite insulted at the notion, being a fanfiction writer.

He's got a point. The idea of Trunks coming back is an extremely fanfiction. And so is the idea of an "Evil" Goku. I'm not saying that it's bad thing but it is a thing.

[Anime Kitten]

He's got a point. The idea of Trunks coming back is an extremely fanfiction. And so is the idea of an "Evil" Goku. I'm not saying that it's bad thing but it is a thing.

And yet nothing Mr. Toriyama had ever done before were fanfiction ideas? Not even Super Saiyan? SSJ2? 3? Again, I'm quite insulted when people draw this comparison, when you consider that there really isn't one. Essentially, what they're saying is, "If a fan came up with this before, it's a fanfiction idea."

[Boo Machine]

I'm unsure What would be peoples example of "Not a fan fiction" idea? I guess the obvious answer would be "Something that hasn't been done before" but these days you would be hard pressed to find something that is 100% new. Trunks coming back and "Evil" goku might be concepts done by fans before, but it has never been done in the Anime or manga. (Aside from Movie 3 and even then I use that example loosely. Tullece looks like Goku, but he isn't Goku.) Considering this recent arc of Super has kept a lot of us guessing and wondering what was going to happen next, I think it took those ideas and put them to good use in a cool and new way we didn't see coming. (For the most part.) Despite how one might feel about it I don't think it deserves to be brushed off with " It's Just another fan fiction idea."

I also feel like people throw around the "it's such a fan fiction idea" thing, to much. I find that it's often used to delegitimize something someone doesn't like in order to not have to take it as seriously. Which is silly. If someone doesn't like something, then that's all that needs to be said. "I don't like it."


On the topic of Dragonball without Toriyama, As long as I have fun with the story of whatever Dragonball media, then I'm cool with it.

[Hellspawn28]

The whole "Feels like Fan Fiction" or "Rip from Dragon Ball AF" is something I feel like that would be from fans and not official creators. I admit that I hated the idea of Goku Black at first because I seen so many fan fics of Evil Goku since the early 2000's. However Toriyama really did a amazing job on the character so far. You can take a bad idea and make it work.

Not to mention Trunks has a reason to come back from the Future unlike most fan fics are like "I'm back from the Future just to say hi" and fights with Goku and the others for no other reason.

[TheMikado]

The whole "Feels like Fan Fiction" or "Rip from Dragon Ball AF" is something I feel like that would be from fans and not official creators. I admit that I hated the idea of Goku Black at first because I seen so many fan fics of Evil Goku since the early 2000's. However Toriyama really did a amazing job on the character so far. You can take a bad idea and make it work.

Not to mention Trunks has a reason to come back from the Future unlike most fan fics are like "I'm back from the Future just to say hi" and fights with Goku and the others for no other reason.

To be fair the whole Kaioshin combined with Goku deal was what triggered a lot of people with Goku Black. Plus the Trunks coming back thing didn't help. That in combination with the "recolors" and the team of universe 7 has people feeling it's creatively uninspiring.

[sintzu]

I think I can for the reasons you brought up but when they decise to do that (yes, I said when, not if) they should take their time to make sure they have the best story so we don't end up with another GT or even some of the post BOG stories.

Dragon Ball, the Toriyama comic, was fresh. More than that, none of them feel transparently marketing-driven; not even GT in execution, and it easily could have.

That's the best thing about GT and something it'll always have over Super.

[Bullza]

I'd be ok with the series creating stories without Toriyama's involvement if there was someone who could pull it off competently.

Pretty much most material that doesn't have his involvement sucks.

[Cetra]

... or Star Wars without George Lucas.

Absolutely okay? Also no perfect comparison because one of the main writers from Star Wars still writes for Star Wars. Or at least still wrote for Episode 7.

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Dragon Ball, the Toriyama comic, was fresh. More than that, none of them feel transparently marketing-driven; not even GT in execution, and it easily could have.

This stopped being true the moment the manga went beyond its first arc, got an anime adaptation and the editors started giving Toriyama ideas as to how to continue the manga.

[sintzu]

I don't want DB to become like an american superhero comic series where it never ends and the story just keeps getting more and more convoluted with alternate universes and multiple reboots involved just to keep the same marketable characters on the front pages.

Dragon Ball was a manga series by Toriyama, Toriyama gave the story a beginning and he gave it an ending and I think that should be respected.

I don't either but that's what it has turned into so all we can do now is hope they make the right choices with it.

Toriyama is the one who's gone beyond that ending when he returned with BOG which as a standalone movie is a great addition to the manga and a great way to end Goku's edventures without completely closing the door on everything.

After destroying a being that was multiple times stronger than every DB character combined, where do you take that story in a way that feels like the stakes are being upped?

BOG, but by doing that they've also made it very hard to keep the stakes high.

I feel like Toei would have made Beerus into another bad guy of the week if Toriyama didn't rewrite the script.

For years, fans wanted a new series from Toriyama that did not follow GT. We got want the fans wanted and now they tend to dislike it. I feel like when DB fans ask for something and when they get it, they end up hating it.

Based on what we know about the movie before he got involved, that's exactly what he was.

The reason fans wanted a new series from him is because they thought it would be like the manga but that was 20 years ago and he's a different person now and fans don't like some of his new stories.

As far as I'm concerned SSJ god mode was at most a one-time temporary power up that expired long before the end of DBZ.

I think it did in the movie's context.

In the end, official licensed fan-fiction is still fan-fiction.

I'm so sick of people comparing what they see as bad ideas to fanfiction. There's no connection. And I personally am quite insulted at the notion, being a fanfiction writer.

I'm insulted because I've read fan fiction that's better than official material, weather it's with DB, Batman or other franchises.

[TheMikado]

He's got a point. The idea of Trunks coming back is an extremely fanfiction. And so is the idea of an "Evil" Goku. I'm not saying that it's bad thing but it is a thing.

And yet nothing Mr. Toriyama had ever done before were fanfiction ideas? Not even Super Saiyan? SSJ2? 3? Again, I'm quite insulted when people draw this comparison, when you consider that there really isn't one. Essentially, what they're saying is, "If a fan came up with this before, it's a fanfiction idea."

Kinda not really getting that. You may not have been around during that time period but no one was thinking of a next level of SSJ as distinct transformation. After SSJ2 yeah people thought of SSJ3 but it was nothing close to what they thought on only one character ever got it besides a fused Gotenks.

[Cipher]

Dragon Ball, the Toriyama comic, was fresh. More than that, none of them feel transparently marketing-driven; not even GT in execution, and it easily could have.

This stopped being true the moment the manga went beyond its first arc, got an anime adaptation and the editors started giving Toriyama ideas as to how to continue the manga.

I disagree. Obviously there's a certain level of business interest wrapped up in Dragon Ball compared to Dr. Slump and some (but by no means all) first works from each artist in JUMP. Dragon Ball itself stemmed from an editorial suggestion Toriyama's next series focus on martial arts.

But among entries aimed at being bankable successes for JUMP, Dragon Ball still comes out a little weirder, a little fiercer. It's a manga artist doing an action series when he has no familiarity with their trends. Moreover, Toriyama continuously fought to do the series his way against commercial wisdom. There's an editor interview on the main site that discusses him threatening to walk if he couldn't make Goku an adult, to editorial's chagrin. That attitude is so much a part of the series. Of course he took other suggestions along the way, but that's how the sausage gets made.

There are gradients to everything.

[ABED]

Of course he took other suggestions along the way, but that's how the sausage gets made.

Which isn't inherently a bad thing. I think some people take artistic freedom to mean artists get no outside suggestions.

BOG, but by doing that they've also made it very hard to keep the stakes high.

In other words, another impossibly strong villain that's exponentially stronger than any that's come before.

[Anime Kitten]

In other words, another impossibly strong villain that's exponentially stronger than any that's come before.

DB was rarely like that before Beerus. The villains were pretty much all on a level where they could be combatted by the heroes. Beerus was finally too high for anyone.

[Cipher]

Which isn't inherently a bad thing. I think some people take artistic freedom to mean artists get no outside suggestions.

No disagreement there.

[shinmaru]

If you can't accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama then Dragon Ball is over for you because he will stop. Soon!
Anyway, I´m always open for new people with new ideas, maybe something super amazing will come out of that.

[ABED]

In other words, another impossibly strong villain that's exponentially stronger than any that's come before.

DB was rarely like that before Beerus. The villains were pretty much all on a level where they could be combatted by the heroes. Beerus was finally too high for anyone.

That's the only difference, instead of eventually powering up to win, Goku doesn't actually win, so it's a nice spin, but I still maintain it's a very familiar pattern. If all the villains after Freeza are just "I've never felt a power like this before!" then I do think they should stop. One of the things that made YYH so compelling isn't simply that the stakes got higher, the personal stakes got higher as well. Yes, their adversaries were stronger, but the final arc was more about each of the heroes figuring out where they truly belonged and what they wanted in life.

[sintzu]

The villains were pretty much all on a level where they could be combatted by the heroes. Beerus was finally too high for anyone.

Which is why it works as an ending to Goku's story, it goes back to what Roshi told him and Krillin before the 21st Tenkaichi, there's always someone who's stronger and Beerus was so strong that Goku couldn't reach him on his own or with the help of others and to make things worse for him, he told him he wasn't even that strong compared to everything else out there.

[ABED]

You make a good point, though that feels like an organic ending to a series, moreso than a beginning.

[maroyasha]

I'm a big comic book fan with many characters I like. A problem with comic books is that you have your Frank Millers where they take a character and craft an amazing story. Then you have Brian Michael Bendis where you give him a character (and total control of basically everything) and they'll screw things royally. Manga works differently though in many ways. But if Toriyama were to leave Dragon Ball in the hands of say, Toyotaro, I'd be pretty fine with it. I've read some of AF and I feel he's got some great ideas. He's not a bad writer and his illustrations have amazing detail. So I think we could see some great stories without Toriyama, though I'd still love to see what he can provide towards the rest of the franchise wherever it goes.