Why can you or can not accept Dragon Ball without Toriyama ?

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

Yes but the problem with a lot of these writers is the work they put out tend to be fanfic-tier without direct influence from Toriyama. Toei in particular have proven time and time again they can't write a good Dragon Ball story entirely on their own as shown with most of the movies and GT.

Not all fanfics are bad, as any writing it's quality comes from the writer(s) skills. Also Toriyama can create "fanfic-tier" stuff, the biggest offender being "Goku was an alien all along sent to conquer Earth and has an evil brother".

We got the Future Trunks TV Special and the Barduck TV Special from them and both are loved and praised by fans.

[FoolsGil]

Yes but the problem with a lot of these writers is the work they put out tend to be fanfic-tier without direct influence from Toriyama. Toei in particular have proven time and time again they can't write a good Dragon Ball story entirely on their own as shown with most of the movies and GT.

What exactly are the tropes that make a work Toriyama-esque and not fanfiction?

[Luso Saiyan]

as any writing it's quality comes from the writer(s) skills.

And authenticity. That and originality is what separates fan content from original content. And also why the latter will always be more important and relevant.

Also Toriyama can create "fanfic-tier" stuff,

No, he can't, by the very nature of what fan fiction is.

[Captain Strawberry]

I don't like it when the fanfiction is tossed around in a negative sense '_' ', I don't really see why it is tossed like that


I'd like to see Dragon ball in the hands of someone like Togashi, Togashi is an excellent writer IMO.

[ABED]

Batman and other superheroes aren't limited to one continuity (which works in their favor) so the writers can do whatever they want whenever they want but Dragon Ball ? like other manga...

For now. Batman and other superheroes were a part of one continuity once upon a time and a time came when someone else worked on the series, then someone else, then someone else, and now it is what it is. That's my point: Once upon a time, the things that we accept as having various different people working on them had to have that transitional point where it was taken from the creator and expanded upon by others.

But continuity wasn't a big thing in the early days of comics. The stories were very stand alone.

[TheGreatness25]

But continuity wasn't a big thing in the early days of comics. The stories were very stand alone.

I'm not saying that someone should reboot Dragon Ball, but if someone other than Toriyama adds to the lore, I'd be all for it. As long as it's on an official capacity because there are way too many fans out there that try to contribute to the lore and I can't follow all of it. Maybe I have a different outlook. I don't care about canon, don't care about "power scaling," don't even care if it makes sense; as long as it's good and entertaining, I'm all for it. I think that all of the arguments back in the day about GT not being made by Toriyama which is why it sucked, were pretentious beyond belief in terms of "Look how much I know; I know GT isn't made by Toriyama!!!"

[ABED]

This isn't a canon argument as much as I prefer long running stories to not have multiple authors as it almost inevitably dilutes things. DB has already gone on for so long. While I enjoy GT for what it is, it not being created by Toriyama wasn't why it wasn't as good, at least not just because he didn't create it. Had he created GT, it would've been a different show.

[UltimateHammerBro]

(...) Why do we look at Dragon Ball as different? Just because Dragon Ball is a Japanese property doesn't mean that different rules apply.

Actually, I think there is a big difference regarding how America and Japan view comic creation, so different rules do apply. You've mentioned the anime, GT, the film... but I don't think these count as part of the original material, which is the manga in DB's case, and the comic book in superheroes.

I don't know if I'm getting my point across, but what I mean is that American comics tend to be seen as "a story which the creator started" while Japanese manga are thought to be "the creator's story". I don't know if those mindsets are due to cultural differences, but they do exist.

Just to keep with the examples of Superman, Batman and Terminator, what if Toriyama had only done the first arc of the manga, right up to their first meeting with Shenron, and all the other arcs had been done by dozens of writers and artists? The discussion of accepting Dragon Ball without Toriyama would be entirely moot. However, Toriyama's synonymous with the entire story and mythology of the series.

This said, I have no problem with non-Toriyama material. Trying to be objective with his flaws as well as his virtues, I feel that most people in this very forum have a better grasp of his work than he himself does nowadays

[Cipher]

People comparing Dragon Ball to American superhero comics do not understand the history of American superhero comics.

I say that as someone who enjoys both.

Also, really hating this out-of-touch modern Toriyama meme. By all indications, "Minus" aside, he's every bit the talented artist and character writer he's always been. But scripting movies is going to result in a different product than a serialized manga (and BoG is one of the best Dragon Ball things ever: "F" gets mixed reactions, but it's acceptable and fun on a character-level for a 90-minute film), and Super has been a recipe for disaster with its midquel status and outline-to-script workflow with rushed execution and poor coordination. Imagining how differently its events might have played out under Toriyama's pen and weekly serialization (complete with the kinds of cornered twists Toriyama's haphazard weekly plotting and editor requests originally required) in a scenario where the manga hadn't already concluded (bookending every character's arc) is precisely one of the things that often makes viewing it frustrating.

Some Toriyama is better than none, but pretty much every one of his (actually genius) strengths lies in his style of execution and natural aptitude for storytelling even when not planning for it. Super's a bad measuring stick for both. And when people talk about Toriyama "now," I assume that's what they're referring to, because we've forgotten things like Jaco exist for some reason.

[Luso Saiyan]

By all indications, "Minus" aside,

Why Minus aside? Minus is an epilogue chapter that's part of Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. The fact that people took it out of context and judge it as a standalone story shouldn't detract from what it is and its relative quality.

[Cipher]

By all indications, "Minus" aside,

Why Minus aside? Minus is an epilogue chapter that's part of Jaco the Galactic Patrolman. The fact that people took it out of context and judge it as a standalone story shouldn't detract from what it is and its relative quality.

I'm mostly with you on that. It's just a fair example of a case where his character writing and judgement were off the mark.

[Luso Saiyan]

It's just a fair example of a case where his character writing and judgement were off the mark.

How so? He never told the circumstances of Goku's departure from planet Vegeta. You can't be off the mark on something that was never revealed to begin with. Unless he contradicts himself, which wasn't the case.

[Cipher]

It's just a fair example of a case where his character writing and judgement were off the mark.

How so? He never told the circumstances of Goku's departure from planet Vegeta. You can't be off the mark on something that was never revealed to begin with. Unless he contradicts himself, which wasn't the case.

Contradictions don't bother me. It's just not a positive addition to the narrative of Goku's accidental growth or positive reinterpretation of the Saiyans' vicious ways. Gine is also one of the worst female characters Toriyama has ever presented; she shows up for a few pages to literally be a doting housewife and mother.

Just poor choices all around there. But Jaco's so good.