Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
People are all shifting blame on Toei for Goku's character derailment in modern Dragon Ball but I believe it all stated with Toriyama...
First, he mentions something about Goku only viewing his family as companions (even though we're shown otherwise in the original manga) while Vegeta actually loves his. This is a major red-flag as this is the first of him trying to write Goku as nothing more than a battle-obsessed idiot... in other words, unlikable and the fact that he more or less claims Vegeta as a loving family man makes him sound like some dirty Bulma x Vegeta fanboy.
Not only that but he also wrote Dragon Ball Minus which shits all over the anime special as well as everything previously established about Goku's backstory. Instead of being the low-class nobody he now had wuving parents who sent him to Earth for his safety rather than being fodder. This really cheapens Goku's character as it not only undermines the poetic justice behind him fulfilling the prophecy and avenging his people but it turns his backstory from inspired by Superman to a straight rip-off.
He also wrote for most of Resurrection F where Goku is portrayed as an overconfident idiot who drops his guard in the mist of battle even though this is was never a notable flaw for Goku beforehand and it also regresses him as Whis makes him learn things that he already should know ("moving without thinking"). Worst part is neither Goku or Vegeta learn a thing in the end... they still continue to be dickheads.
Lastly....
[spoiler][/spoiler]
This gem of a joke is even in the manga so it's probably all on Toriyama. It really gets to me not just for the fact he's minimizing Goku x Chi-Chi for Bulma x Vegeta and that shit pairing Trunks x Mai but the fact Goku never kissed despite having sex willingly at least twice and no matter how you look it, it's pretty much just another "lol goku is retarded!" joke.
Last edited by DBZAOTA482 on Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
fadeddreams5 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:... Haven't we already gotten these in GT? Goku dies, the DBs go away, and the Namekian DBs most likely won't be used again because of the Evil Dragons.
Goku didn't die in GT. The show sucked him off so much, it was impossible to keep him in the world of the living, so he ascended beyond mortality.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Jul 18, 2020 6:31 am
I'm just about done with the concept of reboots and making shows that were products of their time and impactful "new and sexy" and in line with modern tastes and sensibilities. Let stuff stay in their era and give today's kids their own shit to watch.
I always side eye the people who say "Now my kids/today's kids can experience what I did as a child!" Nigga, who gives a fuck about your childhood? You're an adult now and it was at least 15 years ago. Let the kids have their own experience instead of picking at a corpse.
I want to hope the kiss thing is a setup to a punchline instead of the punchline itself. Like if they're gonna make it a point, then make it a point because they plan for him to have his first one sometime soon.
Chuquita wrote:I want to hope the kiss thing is a setup to a punchline instead of the punchline itself. Like if they're gonna make it a point, then make it a point because they plan for him to have his first one sometime soon.
Chuquita wrote:I want to hope the kiss thing is a setup to a punchline instead of the punchline itself. Like if they're gonna make it a point, then make it a point because they plan for him to have his first one sometime soon.
That would be so kawaii amazing!
Many thanks!
I would like to see it happen. Anything's possible.
Chuquita wrote:I want to hope the kiss thing is a setup to a punchline instead of the punchline itself. Like if they're gonna make it a point, then make it a point because they plan for him to have his first one sometime soon.
That would be so kawaii amazing!
Many thanks!
I would like to see it happen. Anything's possible.
Hmph!
It would be cute to see that, buuut... I highly doubt we'll see it, given how Toriyama is and how he's deadest on what Goku should be, in his eyes.
DRAGON BALL IS THE KING OF (Fighting) ANIME!!!!!!! In my opinion, at least...
My reaction to anything about Dragon Ball post-2013 that I don't like and/or is stupid. https://coub.com/view/6osx6
Maybe we shouldn't question Goku. We should question Chi Chi. Why hasn't she never locked lips with Goku? She was able to convince him to make 2 kids with her, we see them embrace, they live together as husband and wife-There was never a time in 10+ years (subtracting the time Goku was dead) that they never kissed? It's easier to accept they have a completely sexless marriage except for making babies.
FoolsGil wrote:Maybe we shouldn't question Goku. We should question Chi Chi. Why hasn't she never locked lips with Goku? She was able to convince him to make 2 kids with her, we see them embrace, they live together as husband and wife-There was never a time in 10+ years (subtracting the time Goku was dead) that they never kissed? It's easier to accept they have a completely sexless marriage except for making babies.
Kissing is not an integral factor in being able to produce children. Consummation is not determined by whether you lock lips.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
FoolsGil wrote:Maybe we shouldn't question Goku. We should question Chi Chi. Why hasn't she never locked lips with Goku? She was able to convince him to make 2 kids with her, we see them embrace, they live together as husband and wife-There was never a time in 10+ years (subtracting the time Goku was dead) that they never kissed? It's easier to accept they have a completely sexless marriage except for making babies.
Kissing is not an integral factor in being able to produce children. Consummation is not determined by whether you lock lips.
You're missing the point,you gravitate towards one thing, I brought up 3 other things.
I'm not sure the interview where it was said, probably around BoG time, but he basically claimed Goku was what he was and won't change much. That's all everyone needs to know regarding Mr.Toriyama's take on Goku's.
He finished developing the character long ago and now the only trait that might resemble progress is Goku's need to find a successor, which started with Gohan and "ended" with Oob.
Super didn't do anything that points towards a change of his opinion since Goku is at this point is incredibly stall. It's not a bad joke that makes him detrimental to Goku's character, it's his total lack of interest in doing anything with him.
The only thing Toei does is bad characterization, which usually pronounces itself in exaggerating traits Goku has or had to the extreme, for the purpose they want the character to lean towards.
FoolsGil wrote:Maybe we shouldn't question Goku. We should question Chi Chi. Why hasn't she never locked lips with Goku? She was able to convince him to make 2 kids with her, we see them embrace, they live together as husband and wife-There was never a time in 10+ years (subtracting the time Goku was dead) that they never kissed? It's easier to accept they have a completely sexless marriage except for making babies.
Kissing is not an integral factor in being able to produce children. Consummation is not determined by whether you lock lips.
You're missing the point,you gravitate towards one thing, I brought up 3 other things.
I still don't see how kissing is such an integral feature of any relationship. I mean, some marriages can last without sex, but not kissing?
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Kissing is not an integral factor in being able to produce children. Consummation is not determined by whether you lock lips.
You're missing the point,you gravitate towards one thing, I brought up 3 other things.
I still don't see how kissing is such an integral feature of any relationship. I mean, some marriages can last without sex, but not kissing?
It's the intimacy, not the action that's the integral feature of the relationship. To say you never kissed your lover or significant other means that there is a lack of intimacy, which in the series is already weird as it is because they've had two kids and hugged and been close to each other. Your own belief may say it's not necessary, fine. But to do everything else, but not that, that doesn't compute if they already show levels of intimacy already.
FoolsGil wrote:
You're missing the point,you gravitate towards one thing, I brought up 3 other things.
I still don't see how kissing is such an integral feature of any relationship. I mean, some marriages can last without sex, but not kissing?
It's the intimacy, not the action that's the integral feature of the relationship. To say you never kissed your lover or significant other means that there is a lack of intimacy, which in the series is already weird as it is because they've had two kids and hugged and been close to each other. Your own belief may say it's not necessary, fine. But to do everything else, but not that, that doesn't compute if they already show levels of intimacy already.
Goku & Chichi are a living (well, metaphorically, at least) refutation of this. Maybe that's a little inflamed.
Goku & Chichi don't have the same brand of intimacy as real people do. Besides, given the personalities, truck-stop breeding isn't even that far-fetched for them.
Considering the fact Toriyama's sole good story is one he had to hijack from another writer in regards to the new material, I think I can safely say that he needs to promptly go the fuck away.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Lord Beerus wrote:
I still don't see how kissing is such an integral feature of any relationship. I mean, some marriages can last without sex, but not kissing?
It's the intimacy, not the action that's the integral feature of the relationship. To say you never kissed your lover or significant other means that there is a lack of intimacy, which in the series is already weird as it is because they've had two kids and hugged and been close to each other. Your own belief may say it's not necessary, fine. But to do everything else, but not that, that doesn't compute if they already show levels of intimacy already.
Goku & Chichi are a living (well, metaphorically, at least) refutation of this. Maybe that's a little inflamed.
Goku & Chichi don't have the same brand of intimacy as real people do. Besides, given the personalities, truck-stop breeding isn't even that far-fetched for them.
Well I never disagreed on that. If the series says they don't kiss, then they don't kiss. How they can do everything else but kiss, that's the question.
This all started because Toei tried to hard to make him look like a hero though . I kind of want the opposite of what's happening now though. I want Toei to make the basic ideas and Toriyama to make it more detailed. I mean that lead to BOG which is honestly a masterpiece imo. Toei has great basic ideas which is evidenced by GT too. They just need to learn how to execute them more.
Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Maybe I should start making it a point not to comment when I'm not sure of something. Too many people know what they're talking about around here.
Disclaimer: I might get into a disagreement with you. Sometimes I might even get feisty about it. I'll never harbor negative feelings because of it though. I hope you feel the same way!
I made a bet with Alee9977 that Vegeta won't be beaten quickly by an opponent. If I lose, I switch my avatar to Vegeta getting beat by hit. If I win, he switches it to Vegeta holding Black by his hair. This will last a month.
kinisking wrote:This all started because Toei tried to hard to make him look like a hero though
That's kind of untrue, though. Sure, Toei didn't help things, but Toriyama pretty much wrote him that way too, at least for most of the Freeza Arc. People like to blame Toei far too much for Goku's characterization.
kinisking wrote:This all started because Toei tried to hard to make him look like a hero though
That's kind of untrue, though. Sure, Toei didn't help things, but Toriyama pretty much wrote him that way too, at least for most of the Freeza Arc. People like to blame Toei far too much for Goku's characterization.
I wasn't serious haha
Jinzoningen MULE wrote: Maybe I should start making it a point not to comment when I'm not sure of something. Too many people know what they're talking about around here.
Disclaimer: I might get into a disagreement with you. Sometimes I might even get feisty about it. I'll never harbor negative feelings because of it though. I hope you feel the same way!
I made a bet with Alee9977 that Vegeta won't be beaten quickly by an opponent. If I lose, I switch my avatar to Vegeta getting beat by hit. If I win, he switches it to Vegeta holding Black by his hair. This will last a month.
kinisking wrote:This all started because Toei tried to hard to make him look like a hero though
That's kind of untrue, though. Sure, Toei didn't help things, but Toriyama pretty much wrote him that way too, at least for most of the Freeza Arc. People like to blame Toei far too much for Goku's characterization.
[/spoiler]
