The main characters haven't won a single time on their own in Super.

[Theophrastus]

I like it because it keeps everything unpredictable.

I actually prefer it this way. Keep us, the viewers, on our toes constantly. You never truly guess what will happen next, because anybody could be thrown into the mix of the progressing plot.

"The main characters actually lose, but scrape by in the end somehow anyway" isn't really unpredictable after it happens four times in a row, though.

[HeroR]

I'm a bit conflicted. On the one hand, I really enjoy how Super isn't going out of its way to make Goku (and Vegeta) the clear, undeniable, top dogs of the universe. By contrast, they're pretty small-fry compared to the gods and even Hit (in the anime). Heck, Zamasu stealing Goku's body ended up making him get even stronger than Goku!

The only issue with it is it means there doesn't feel like there's any clear progression for them. We know they've started at the bottom of the god hierarchy, but are we ever going to see them try and move their way up? It feels like they're almost stuck there at the bottom and even though they train, it won't make them improve. And it's hard to feel compelled to watch characters who aren't going to improve.

Calling Goku and Vegeta small fries to Hit is really pushing it. Especially since Goku was sure he would win against Hit and even wanted to fight him three days after the tournament.

And, you are forgetting that Zamasu stole a body of Goku, when he was one year older. Giving how much stronger characters can get in a year's time, Goku was basically fighting stronger version of himself from the jump.

I like it because it keeps everything unpredictable.

I actually prefer it this way. Keep us, the viewers, on our toes constantly. You never truly guess what will happen next, because anybody could be thrown into the mix of the progressing plot.

"The main characters actually lose, but scrape by in the end somehow anyway" isn't really unpredictable after it happens four times in a row, though.

It only happened three. The heroes didn't lose against U6. Goku and Hit both threw their fights out of respect for each other and to screw their respective gods after being called pawns.

[dragonballhero]

Which is why I'm hoping Beerus telling the Z-Warriors to stop relying on them will mean something in the future.

Out of all these conflicts, the gods started three of them, and didn't even help in the Champa Saga since it was the mortals who said, 'screw the gods', after Champa called them pawns. Only with Golden Freeza was the conflict helped by the gods and they didn't start the mess.

It's amazing how people take Beerus' side when he's so full of BS.

Actually, it's STRONGLY implied in the Super manga that CHAMPA gave Sorbet the idea to revive Frieza...just to screw with Beerus. If you count that, then the gods really HAVE been the true source of the Dragon Team's troubles in Super as a whole.

And you're right. Beerus really IS full of BS. Why do these guys bother hanging with him anymore? Well, aside fro the GLARINGLY obvious reason, of course...

To be fair, this is the progression of our bad guys at work here. Heck, the last main villain Goku beat in a straight fight was Piccolo!

In Dragon Ball, Goku was normally powerful enough to beat the main threat on his own but the bad guy would fight dirty and force him to need help during some of the final fights.

Z was the era where the bad guys got so tough that Goku almost always needed help to beat the main villain. Raditz, Vegeta, Frieza, Cell and Buu, Goku had help to beat them all one way or another.

Super is the era were the threats are now so powerful and so dangerous that our heroes should count themselves lucky they are not dead yet!

Oh, wow! You're right! Nice observation there! Especially with DBS! Honestly, util the Zamasu arc, I couldn't believe the Dragon Team was getting out of MOST of their scrapes without that many casualties!

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Actually, it's STRONGLY implied in the Super manga that CHAMPA gave Sorbet the idea to revive Frieza...

Um... no? I've read it twice, and never picked up on anything like that. Could you source?

[Dbzk1999]

Actually, it's STRONGLY implied in the Super manga that CHAMPA gave Sorbet the idea to revive Frieza...

Um... no? I've read it twice, and never picked up on anything like that. Could you source?

Referencing how champa destroying one of those ships inadvertently resulted in sorbet being forced to revive freeza

[dragonballhero]

Actually, it's STRONGLY implied in the Super manga that CHAMPA gave Sorbet the idea to revive Frieza...

Um... no? I've read it twice, and never picked up on anything like that. Could you source?

Sure, but could you give me a minute? I'm heading out somewhere. If someone else could post the source, please do so. I'll find when I get back. I will say that I'm pretty sure it was mentioned by the narrator somewhere in the beginning of the Champa arc in the manga.

[Lord Frieza]

Actually, it's STRONGLY implied in the Super manga that CHAMPA gave Sorbet the idea to revive Frieza...

Um... no? I've read it twice, and never picked up on anything like that. Could you source?

Sure, but could you give me a minute? I'm heading out somewhere. If someone else could post the source, please do so. I'll find when I get back. I will say that I'm pretty sure it was mentioned by the narrator somewhere in the beginning of the Champa arc in the manga.

Yes and no, its not that he gave them the idea its just that Champa's quest for the ball acted as a catalyst for the events that would lead to Frieza's resurrection. Nether of them ever knew of each other or interacted in any way.

[Smilodon]

In previous Dragon Ball we had only these times:

- Goku used Kintoun to come back to ring when he was fighting Giran. That was forbidden;

- General Blue was about to defeat Goku, but he got saved by a mouse..And second time he got saved by Arale;

- Majin Boo was defeating Goku, Vegeta and Fat Boo....Even after the genki dama, Kid Boo was defending and Goku wasn't capable to do nothing until Porunga gives his power back.

[dbs fanboy]

What about if Toriyama/Toei are doing this to make Goku and co pull a Kratos in the final arc?
It would be funny

[TheMikado]

The problem with what's happened so far is that you have to "top" the previous villain. So where does the show go from here? We've literally had SSB Vegetto fight a being capable of destroying the multiverse.

I don't see how it's possible to have a real and credible threat at this point. We've got mutilple potara earrings now, multiple Future Trunks one with God ki, not to mention Beerus and Whis and his time abilities and the even more powerful attendants and now NOT just one King of ALL BUT two omnipotent Gods capable of destroying any threat in an instant!!! Like how can you possible create any tension.

[Legion]

People needs to accept that now Beerus/Whis are main characters like Goku and Vegeta, but they are still neutral (as it should be).

In fact Toriyama always keeps Beerus away from Goku's problem for....plot (except few occasions). I think Toriyama did the right thing.

The angels they can't fight in any way and i doubt that Zeno will "help" Goku again. So i don't see the problem. The tension is still there, for me.

Now, if Goku lose against Frieza, Hit, Black or other people is not Gods fault.

Anyway, i like that Goku and Vegeta are not the big fish anymore,and that there are so many people stronger than them.