The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

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The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Sat Dec 03, 2016 12:34 pm

Vegeta being inferior to Goku wasn't just because Goku is the main protagonist, I feel that there is a deeper meaning and message behind it. Here's my analysis on it.

By being "pure" Goku's hearts desires were made unshakeable, and since he's a Saiyan his main heart's desire would be to fight and improve without any outside thoughts to hinder his desire to improve unlike regular non-pure Saiyans. His purity was made concrete by his upbringing. Master Roshi's teachings relates perfectly in conjunction with Goku's purity and not letting the idea of statuses cloud one's mind from their work and how one should work purely to improve oneself in order to attain health in both mind and body and feel more fulfilled with the achievement of improvement alone.

Vegeta embodies the negative effects that come with not following Master Roshi's teachings, (i.e Not acquiring the right mindset in training) hence why he couldn't catch up with Goku. Although Vegeta is more gifted than Goku he allowed himself to be more concern with outside thoughts such as social status and money (Mainly social status) which hindered his great potential. This applies greatly to real life situations, people would focus too much on besting others rather than besting themselves which ends up backfiring at them since they'd either feel unfulfilled with the improvements that were gained via their obsession. The best example of this in DBZ was in the Cell arc when Vegeta couldn't achieve Mastered Super Saiyan like Goku despite being a better genius on paper because he allowed his anger towards not being the best consume him and could only aim for the forced variation of the MSSJ known as the grade forms (Ultra Super Saiyan), which had negative effects of stamina consumption and speed decrease, similar to how athletes who are unsatisfied with improvement for improvement sake rely on forced methods such as steroids to get better, which in the end can led to side effects such as anger and depression, which Vegeta had in the end of the Cell arc because of the mindset he placed on his training.

This is why it was necessary within the story of Z for Vegeta to be inferior to Goku, it's because of the message it brings. Vegeta should have been happy after Goku died in the end of the Android arc since he surpassed the Super Saiyan and Frieza's empire but, like workers in real life who follow the wrong mindset that isn't Master Roshi's teachings, he ended up feeling sad and depressed because he allowed his anger to be his guide rather than focusing more on self improvement.

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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by sintzu » Sat Dec 03, 2016 1:50 pm

This is close to what Vegeta said in his #1 speach, Goku wasn't just the best because he had someone to protect but because he only cared about surpassing his own limits and unlike him, it wasn't to kill somebody or prove a point to anyone, it was all for himself.

Ever since acknowledging that though his luck and training have greatly improved and will probably continue to do so the more he moves away from his old ways.
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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:30 pm

sintzu wrote:This is close to what Vegeta said in his #1 speach, Goku wasn't just the best because he had someone to protect but because he only cared about surpassing his own limits and unlike him, it wasn't to kill somebody or prove a point to anyone, it was all for himself.

Ever since acknowledging that though his luck and training have greatly improved and will probably continue to do so the more he moves away from his old ways.
Yes, that Number One speech does exemplify what I'm talking about. I'm surprised I didn't give it any real thought while writing this write-up.
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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by kinisking » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:49 pm

I don't mind Goku being stronger than Gohan because of the message behind it also. It shows hard work beats talent.
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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by DBZAOTA482 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 2:57 pm

It also shows your future not defined by your roots.

Goku is the born loser while Vegeta is the prodigy but Goku is the more genuine hard worker so he wins out.
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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by omaro34 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:34 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:It also shows your future not defined by your roots.

Goku is the born loser while Vegeta is the prodigy but Goku is the more genuine hard worker so he wins out.
I don't know if Goku is the harder worker than Vegeta. Even though Vegeta is a prodigy this guy trains every chance he gets. Always in the gravity room, then he found solitude in space when he became a Super Saiyan, Vegeta never gives up on surpassing Goku.

Now Goku probably utilizes his,training better to achieve maximum results, but I don't think he wants it more than Vegeta.
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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by MozillaVulpix » Sat Dec 03, 2016 3:51 pm

I think that's why I don't like the idea of him being Goku's equal or even his superior, like some parts of Super seem to imply. It completely ruins this message. Yes, sure, you could say that Vegeta finally learnt why Goku was always better, and now he's training and getting stronger with the same, healthier mindset, but that just strips him of all of the character flaws he had in Z. It's probably why I now find him incredibly boring. He's learnt all his lessons, and there's nowhere else for him to go.
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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by ChronoTwigger » Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:22 pm

Overthinking.
In shonen, the hero is a fated, gifted #1.
The others just follow. And ALWAYS follow.
Nothing more than that.
Try find any exception ;).
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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by Bansho64 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:23 pm

ChronoTwigger wrote:Overthinking.
In shonen, the hero is a fated, gifted #1.
The others just follow. And ALWAYS follow.
Nothing more than that.
Try find any exception ;).
Goku himself is that exception.

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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Dec 03, 2016 4:59 pm

DBZAOTA482 wrote:It also shows your future not defined by your roots.

Goku is the born loser while Vegeta is the prodigy but Goku is the more genuine hard worker so he wins out.
I think the message it not about how hard you train. It's about how smart you approach getting stronger.

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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by ChronoTwigger » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:21 pm

Bansho64 wrote:
ChronoTwigger wrote:Overthinking.
In shonen, the hero is a fated, gifted #1.
The others just follow. And ALWAYS follow.
Nothing more than that.
Try find any exception ;).
Goku himself is that exception.
The only sayan in a world of human... the right guy that become the legendary SuperSayan...The fated one that become SSGod... yes, just a commoner. C'mon. It's probably the most advantaged and gifted hero ever.
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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by Ssenrof » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:44 pm

I think Vegeta stopped being inferior to Goku after the Buu arc where He learned why Goku became as strong as he is.

Vegeta becomes stronger than Goku in the BOG movie, Goku.

Also, seemingly Vegeta gained his God
Power through hard work- while Goku was given it.

Frankly, if Goku didn't train in other word for
7 years nonstop there is no reason to believe he would surpass Vegeta in be Buu Saga.

If Kai taught Vegeta Kio-Ken then they would probably be the same strength.

Vegeta being inferior is old news, it's not really relevant since Whis's training.

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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by Ssenrof » Sat Dec 03, 2016 5:53 pm

ChronoTwigger wrote:
Bansho64 wrote:
ChronoTwigger wrote:Overthinking.
In shonen, the hero is a fated, gifted #1.
The others just follow. And ALWAYS follow.
Nothing more than that.
Try find any exception ;).
Goku himself is that exception.
The only sayan in a world of human... the right guy that become the legendary SuperSayan...The fated one that become SSGod... yes, just a commoner. C'mon. It's probably the most advantaged and gifted hero ever.
Challenge accepted!!

In Pokemon, Ash never wins anything Except that one time in that fake Pokemon league.

In hunterxhunter Gon is inferior to Killua in every arc until he turn Hulk!Gon- and that's only a temporary powerup.

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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:36 pm

ChronoTwigger wrote:
Bansho64 wrote:
ChronoTwigger wrote:Overthinking.
In shonen, the hero is a fated, gifted #1.
The others just follow. And ALWAYS follow.
Nothing more than that.
Try find any exception ;).
Goku himself is that exception.
The only sayan in a world of human... the right guy that become the legendary SuperSayan...The fated one that become SSGod... yes, just a commoner. C'mon. It's probably the most advantaged and gifted hero ever.
The genius of Goku's character is the seamless blend between being gifted and being lower class. The whole "There's always someone better" message from Master Roshi applies to both sides of his character:

Although gifted, Goku won't allow achieving the highest of statuses (e.g World Tournament) to stop him from pushing for greater heights via being content with it, and although he's lower class, he believes no statuses are a limit for his training/potential growth because he'll always have limits to overcome.
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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by ChronoTwigger » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:03 pm

Ssenrof wrote:
ChronoTwigger wrote:
Bansho64 wrote: Goku himself is that exception.
The only sayan in a world of human... the right guy that become the legendary SuperSayan...The fated one that become SSGod... yes, just a commoner. C'mon. It's probably the most advantaged and gifted hero ever.
Challenge accepted!!

In Pokemon, Ash never wins anything Except that one time in that fake Pokemon league.

In hunterxhunter Gon is inferior to Killua in every arc until he turn Hulk!Gon- and that's only a temporary powerup.
It's not about how much you win, but how the main character is portraied. The hero always have the greater potential and chances since the beginning (Ash innate talene and pokemon empathy rival from the start more seasoned trainers).

Vegeta will be always inferior to Goku not by any kind of added morale, but 'cause Goku got the hero role.
Manga are easier than we think or speculate, THEN we can read them to find some lesson or morale, but there aren't in the beginning.
I learned english listening to songs. So I don't know anything about. The day you had to learn play piano by just listening .mp3, you'll understand.

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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by TheUltimateVegito » Sat Dec 03, 2016 7:08 pm

ChronoTwigger wrote:
Ssenrof wrote:
ChronoTwigger wrote:
The only sayan in a world of human... the right guy that become the legendary SuperSayan...The fated one that become SSGod... yes, just a commoner. C'mon. It's probably the most advantaged and gifted hero ever.
Challenge accepted!!

In Pokemon, Ash never wins anything Except that one time in that fake Pokemon league.

In hunterxhunter Gon is inferior to Killua in every arc until he turn Hulk!Gon- and that's only a temporary powerup.
It's not about how much you win, but how the main character is portraied. The jhero always have the greater potential and chances since the beginning (Ash innate talente and pokemon empathy rival from the start more seasoned trainers).

Vegeta will be always inferior to Goku not by any kind of added morale, but 'cause Goku got the hero role.
Manga are easier than we think or speculate, THEN we can read them to find some lesson or morale, but there aren't in the beginning.
In the Android arc, the difference in power between Goku and Vegeta was solely because of their differing mindsets, hence why Goku was able to achieve MSSJ and Vegeta couldn't at the time. It's one of the reasons why the Android arc is the best arc imo.
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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by RedRibbonSoldier#42 » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:08 pm

Ssenrof wrote:
ChronoTwigger wrote:
Bansho64 wrote: Goku himself is that exception.
The only sayan in a world of human... the right guy that become the legendary SuperSayan...The fated one that become SSGod... yes, just a commoner. C'mon. It's probably the most advantaged and gifted hero ever.
Challenge accepted!!

In Pokemon, Ash never wins anything Except that one time in that fake Pokemon league.

In hunterxhunter Gon is inferior to Killua in every arc until he turn Hulk!Gon- and that's only a temporary powerup.
Gon should be about the same now, but you're right about Ash. He is the only person with negative plot armor: the writers won't let him win.

As for the Vegeta inferiority theme, it mostly over now that they are both SSJB and similar in strength.

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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by ChronoTwigger » Sat Dec 03, 2016 8:12 pm

TheUltimateVegito wrote:
ChronoTwigger wrote:
Ssenrof wrote:
Challenge accepted!!

In Pokemon, Ash never wins anything Except that one time in that fake Pokemon league.

In hunterxhunter Gon is inferior to Killua in every arc until he turn Hulk!Gon- and that's only a temporary powerup.
It's not about how much you win, but how the main character is portraied. The jhero always have the greater potential and chances since the beginning (Ash innate talente and pokemon empathy rival from the start more seasoned trainers).

Vegeta will be always inferior to Goku not by any kind of added morale, but 'cause Goku got the hero role.
Manga are easier than we think or speculate, THEN we can read them to find some lesson or morale, but there aren't in the beginning.
In the Android arc, the difference in power between Goku and Vegeta was solely because of their differing mindsets, hence why Goku was able to achieve MSSJ and Vegeta couldn't at the time. It's one of the reasons why the Android arc is the best arc imo.
And why Goku got the right mindset? It's a snake biting his own tail.
I know it's more satisfactory to think our beloved heroes are qualified by virtues, but for a narration of that kind to work, ROLES are mostly fixed and relevant.
In shonen, heroes always got the upper hand. It's not that Roshi or Gohan teachings made Goku better, but the reason is: the hero got better teachers, being the hero.
The more similar stuff that come to my mind is Seiya (good boy, good teacher, the hero) and Ikki (bad boy, bad teachers, antihero). Despite being stronger, cooler, learned the lesson and convert to goodness (and for that reason, MORE motivated for good), his costarring role doesn't allow him to get the upper hand. It's always Seiya to save the world, get the first boost, get the first hint, have a suggested stronger potential.
The same are Goku - Vegeta.

That's 'cause the main hero need to ALREADY and immediatly incarmate all the good virtues. There's no doubt or possible discussion about. You need to instantly identify the hero. Ow, we all know tha Zoro or Sanji are cooler, stronger and more likeable chara, but Luffy is the hero. So he had to be always better or hint you he could win one day every struggle.

I hope that my horrible english was enough to explain my POV.
I learned english listening to songs. So I don't know anything about. The day you had to learn play piano by just listening .mp3, you'll understand.

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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by ABED » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:04 pm

Goku didn't become a Super Saiyan because of a prophecy.
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Re: The Important Message Behind Vegeta's Inferiority

Post by sintzu » Sat Dec 03, 2016 9:13 pm

MozillaVulpix wrote:I think that's why I don't like the idea of him being Goku's equal or even his superior, like some parts of Super seem to imply. It completely ruins this message.

Yes, sure, you could say that Vegeta finally learnt why Goku was always better, and now he's training and getting stronger with the same, healthier mindset, but that just strips him of all of the character flaws he had in Z.

He's learnt all his lessons, and there's nowhere else for him to go.
Wouldn't that ruin the message ? if he didn't get stronger after aknowledging his flaws then that would mean he's still doing something wrong.

The point of character development is for them to get rid of their flaws and evolve into better characters.

He has been developing but not as much as before which is why I think Super should've introduced a completely new hero to develop from scratch alongside Goku and Vegeta.
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