How strong is the Fusion Dance?

[Darkprince410]

The androids dodged Trunk's blast to save 16.

No they didn't, as there was literally no place for them to dodge. The blast was coming from the entrance, and #17 and #18 were still amidst the rubble of the destroyed lab afterward. They took the full force of the attack and it didn't even scratch them.

Krillin clearly had trouble. Gohan had to save him. And Piccolo had trouble against a Zarbon level opponent... Makes no sense, lol. Basically saying Goten and Trunks are stronger than Frieza because they scared 18 a bit is the same as saying Shisami is stronger than Frieza because he pushed Piccolo a bit.

Didn't happen in Super. In Super, Shisami didn't fight Piccolo at all, and even in the movie, one can argue that he simply trained with Freeza. The storyboard from Volume F suggest that Tagoma in the movie would likely have the same role he did in Super (that he was supposed to be the strongest and fight Piccolo and Gohan), but he was switched with Shisami partway through. So if you look at Shisami as being what Tagoma was in Super, it makes sense, that he was the one that trained with Freeza.

Goku was suppressed when he read his power with his scouter. They always suppress their power level when they aren't fighting and if it wasn't suppressed the scouter would of blown.
And are you sure it wasn't written by Toriyama? I could of sworn he wrote the story for that special. Tarble was even mentioned in Battle of Gods.

Goku was powering up and transforming into a Super Saiya-jin, so it wasn't that he was suppressed. Likewise, Takao Koyama was the actual scenario writer, with Toriyama having supplied a rough draft to begin. Likewise, Toriyama didn't write Battle of Gods from scratch either, but heavily rewrote a good deal of it when he came on board. There were elements already there from the beginning (Beerus's name, the Ssj God, Bulma's age, etc), and the Tarble reference could easily have been one of these too.

[dragon boss z]

No they didn't, as there was literally no place for them to dodge. The blast was coming from the entrance, and #17 and #18 were still amidst the rubble of the destroyed lab afterward. They took the full force of the attack and it didn't even scratch them.

Didn't happen in Super. In Super, Shisami didn't fight Piccolo at all, and even in the movie, one can argue that he simply trained with Freeza. The storyboard from Volume F suggest that Tagoma in the movie would likely have the same role he did in Super (that he was supposed to be the strongest and fight Piccolo and Gohan), but he was switched with Shisami partway through. So if you look at Shisami as being what Tagoma was in Super, it makes sense, that he was the one that trained with Freeza.

Goku was powering up and transforming into a Super Saiya-jin, so it wasn't that he was suppressed. Likewise, Takao Koyama was the actual scenario writer, with Toriyama having supplied a rough draft to begin. Likewise, Toriyama didn't write Battle of Gods from scratch either, but heavily rewrote a good deal of it when he came on board. There were elements already there from the beginning (Beerus's name, the Ssj God, Bulma's age, etc), and the Tarble reference could easily have been one of these too.

It looks pretty clear they dodged it. 16 or at least his case would of been destroyed by the explosion and they wouldn't of needed to get out of there and rip 16 out if there was no danger to any of them.



It doesn't matter if it didn't happen in Super. One isn't canon over the other. And lets say Shisami did train with Frieza, he still should of even surpassed Frieza's first form. And even if he was some sort of super prodigy he still shouldn't of passed Frieza's 100% final form.
As for Tagoma that didn't make sense either. It seems like they though he got zenkai boosts or something. Also I'm pretty sure the writers are so dumb they forgot Piccolo was stronger than Namek Frieza and base saiyans. Considering they had Frieza say he would reach a power level of 1.3 mil in the movie, that heavily implies they thought the z fighters were under that power level... If they didn't think that I don't know why they would have Frieza say that. Of course we can have a in universe explanation of Frieza not knowing how strong he would get, but I highly doubt that's what the writers were going for as it wasn't meant to be taken as a joke scene.

When Tarble red Goku's power level and said he wasn't strong enough he was eating food suppressed. I'm not saying that special was all Toriyama, but he was involved.

[Awesome_Gotenks]

You must be joking with that last sentence. SSjin Goten and Trunks(Pre-RoSaT) are Vegeta and Trunks tier at least and Cell Games FPSSjin-tier at most IMHO, while Base Gotenks(Pre-RoSaT) was so powerful Krillin and Yamcha thought he stood a small chance against Fat Boo for a moment. That makes Base Gotenks several dozens of times stronger than SSjin Goten and Trunks, and a quick calculation makes Base Gotenks several hundreds if not thousands of times stronger than Base Goten & Trunks if you apply the 50x multiplier even after the fusion.

[dragon boss z]

You must be joking with that last sentence. SSjin Goten and Trunks(Pre-RoSaT) are Vegeta and Trunks tier at least and Cell Games FPSSjin-tier at most IMHO, while Base Gotenks(Pre-RoSaT) was so powerful Krillin and Yamcha thought he stood a small chance against Fat Boo for a moment. That makes Base Gotenks several dozens of times stronger than SSjin Goten and Trunks, and a quick calculation makes Base Gotenks several hundreds if not thousands of times stronger than Base Goten & Trunks if you apply the 50x multiplier even after the fusion.

I'm pretty sure Piccolo said he new base Gotenks stood no chance against Fat Buu.

imo

ssj Goten and Trunks are Frieza tier
base Gotenks is perfect Cell tier
ssj Gotenks is fat Buu tier
ssj3 Gotenks is super Buu tier.

[Darkprince410]

It looks pretty clear they dodged it. 16 or at least his case would of been destroyed by the explosion and they wouldn't of needed to get out of there and rip 16 out if there was no danger to any of them.



It doesn't matter if it didn't happen in Super. One isn't canon over the other. And lets say Shisami did train with Frieza, he still should of even surpassed Frieza's first form. And even if he was some sort of super prodigy he still shouldn't of passed Frieza's 100% final form.
As for Tagoma that didn't make sense either. It seems like they though he got zenkai boosts or something. Also I'm pretty sure the writers are so dumb they forgot Piccolo was stronger than Namek Frieza and base saiyans. Considering they had Frieza say he would reach a power level of 1.3 mil in the movie, that heavily implies they thought the z fighters were under that power level... If they didn't think that I don't know why they would have Frieza say that. Of course we can have a in universe explanation of Frieza not knowing how strong he would get, but I highly doubt that's what the writers were going for as it wasn't meant to be taken as a joke scene.

When Tarble red Goku's power level and said he wasn't strong enough he was eating food suppressed. I'm not saying that special was all Toriyama, but he was involved.

Like I said though, there's literally no place they could have dodged the attack. There's only one entrance/exit to the lab, and that was the doorway Trunks was standing in. The scene was to show that they survived the attack completely unscathed. The original dialogue in the manga even supports this, as Vegeta comments that the level of power he put into that attack was just a waste of energy, indicating that it was the power behind the attack that caused them to not take any damage, not that they avoided it.

General rule of thumb when it comes to "canonicity" is that the newer version supersedes the old, so given that Super is the newest version of that story, it should be taken that the movie's events were retconned. Besides, how do you know he shouldn't have surpassed Freeza's first form strength wise? If Tagoma did in Super, and Shisami took his place in the original movie, then him being powerful enough for Piccolo to have a hard time and Gohan needing Super Saiya-jin to beat him isn't unreasonable at all.

As for Freeza's statement, you yourself pointed out the probability that Freeza has no idea how much stronger he'll get. He's never trained before in his life, and as such he could just be assuming he'll only double his strength in his first form. Besides, all his statement on the matter means is that he thought unlocking his potential would bring him to that level, not that he (or Toriyama) placed the Z Senshi that low. And given that the line was removed in Super, it's again a moot point.

I'm referring to Tarble's comment after Goku transformed and caused his scouter to explode. He commented then that Goku "should" be plenty strength wise, indicating even then there might be some doubt to it, when even just a minor flex of his base form strength would logically have left absolutely no doubt.

I'm pretty sure Piccolo said he new base Gotenks stood no chance against Fat Buu.

All that means to Piccolo is that base Gotenks would need to be no stronger than Ssj3 Goku for that to matter, as Piccolo believed Goku couldn't beat Fat Buu.

And on the note of Goten and Trunks growing fast strength wise, it should be noted that the boys managed to grow so strong in the short time that they were in the Room of Spirit and Time that Piccolo suggested that they had managed to get Gotenks over 50x stronger than he was before. Before they entered, he adamantly pointed out that Ssj Gotenks stood no chance against Evil Buu, but after they trained, and Piccolo saw them fuse into base Gotenks (stating later he had no idea they could transform) he implied that they powered up so much that they just might stand a chance.

So if the boys can grow that fast in that short of time to where Gotenks could become that much stronger, then why is it so unreasonable for them to have grown quick enough beforehand to be Cell Games tier Goku/Gohan strength?

[dragon boss z]

Like I said though, there's literally no place they could have dodged the attack. There's only one entrance/exit to the lab, and that was the doorway Trunks was standing in. The scene was to show that they survived the attack completely unscathed. The original dialogue in the manga even supports this, as Vegeta comments that the level of power he put into that attack was just a waste of energy, indicating that it was the power behind the attack that caused them to not take any damage, not that they avoided it.

General rule of thumb when it comes to "canonicity" is that the newer version supersedes the old, so given that Super is the newest version of that story, it should be taken that the movie's events were retconned. Besides, how do you know he shouldn't have surpassed Freeza's first form strength wise? If Tagoma did in Super, and Shisami took his place in the original movie, then him being powerful enough for Piccolo to have a hard time and Gohan needing Super Saiya-jin to beat him isn't unreasonable at all.

As for Freeza's statement, you yourself pointed out the probability that Freeza has no idea how much stronger he'll get. He's never trained before in his life, and as such he could just be assuming he'll only double his strength in his first form. Besides, all his statement on the matter means is that he thought unlocking his potential would bring him to that level, not that he (or Toriyama) placed the Z Senshi that low. And given that the line was removed in Super, it's again a moot point.

I'm referring to Tarble's comment after Goku transformed and caused his scouter to explode. He commented then that Goku "should" be plenty strength wise, indicating even then there might be some doubt to it, when even just a minor flex of his base form strength would logically have left absolutely no doubt.

All that means to Piccolo is that base Gotenks would need to be no stronger than Ssj3 Goku for that to matter, as Piccolo believed Goku couldn't beat Fat Buu.

And on the note of Goten and Trunks growing fast strength wise, it should be noted that the boys managed to grow so strong in the short time that they were in the Room of Spirit and Time that Piccolo suggested that they had managed to get Gotenks over 50x stronger than he was before. Before they entered, he adamantly pointed out that Ssj Gotenks stood no chance against Evil Buu, but after they trained, and Piccolo saw them fuse into base Gotenks (stating later he had no idea they could transform) he implied that they powered up so much that they just might stand a chance.

So if the boys can grow that fast in that short of time to where Gotenks could become that much stronger, then why is it so unreasonable for them to have grown quick enough beforehand to be Cell Games tier Goku/Gohan strength?

They could of flown by them, they could of flown through the wall of the lab, ect. I can understand how they can survive the technique, but what wouldn't make sense is for 16's case to survive the technique. To me it looked like they were trying to save 16. Later when Vegeta used a ki attack on 18 it didn't damage her but it wrecked her clothes. Their clothes weren't even dirtied after Trunk's attack, which seems to imply they didn't even get hit.

The super anime has filler characters in references in it. It seems to be following the continuity of dragon ball kai.
Shisami surpassing Frieza's first form in 4 months doesn't make sense because that basically tells us any of Frieza's elite warriors could of surpassed Frieza's first form with a little training. Also Frieza only got a big jump in power due to being a prodigy AND the fact he never trained before. Most likely most of Frieza's men train.
And I wouldn't completely rule out Shisami or Tagoma passing Frieza's first form. I wouldn't like it but I would be like, meh I guess they were prodigies too. However passing Frieza's final form in 4 months is out of the question. Even Vegeta who was a prodigy with a power level of 18,000 and over 10 years of training couldn't pass Frieza's final form with his base power level.

The fact the 1.3 million line was removed in super pretty much proves it was a mistake in the first place. if they thought 1.3 million was high we can only assume they thought the z fighters were below that. Well all of them should be besides Piccolo and Gohan.

Tarble said Goku should be strong enough because Goku broke his scouter before he could read a high enough power level. Frieza's first form is also high enough to break a scouter so he really wouldn't know if he was truly strong enough to win for sure. And yes Goku's base power level should leave no doubt, but it seems like you are trying to imply that because base Goku had to go ssj to prove he was stronger then that must mean they are final form Frieza tier. this doesn't make sense because base Goten and Trunks were beating them. That means it doesn't matter which form they were talking about, base Goku was stronger. And since base Goku was stronger they can't be stronger than final form Frieza, because even if it isn't canon, it is in the same continuity as battle of gods, which states Frieza is stronger than base Goku. So from this we can assume that final form Frieza>base Goku>base Goten/Trunks>=Abo and Cado=first form Frieza.
Also I would like to point out how it took Abo and Cado over 10 years to go from Ginyu level to first form Frieza level. This makes some sense, unlike Shisami going from Zarbon to above first form Frieza level in 4 months.

I assume Piccolo knows how much ssj multipliers are so when he sense base Gotenks and said they might of gotten strong enough I assume he was taking the power of their ssj transformation into consideration.

[Darkprince410]

They could of flown by them, they could of flown through the wall of the lab, ect. I can understand how they can survive the technique, but what wouldn't make sense is for 16's case to survive the technique. To me it looked like they were trying to save 16. Later when Vegeta used a ki attack on 18 it didn't damage her but it wrecked her clothes. Their clothes weren't even dirtied after Trunk's attack, which seems to imply they didn't even get hit.

If you want to argue that they dodged it rather than took the hit without being fazed, then even that supports Ssj Trunks being above Future Trunks at the time. If #17 and #18 can rip out #16's chamber and rush him out of there so fast that practically no one saw it before Trunks' blast (with enough power behind it to actually try and stop them) hit, but then #18 later panics over the speed of the attack that the suppressed Ssj Trunks fired at her, that would all the more indicate Trunks being well above Future Trunks at the time.

The fact the 1.3 million line was removed in super pretty much proves it was a mistake in the first place. if they thought 1.3 million was high we can only assume they thought the z fighters were below that. Well all of them should be besides Piccolo and Gohan.

I really don't see how you can come to that conclusion, that the line was put in because they saw the others being that low. Everything given to us puts it as being far simpler, that he just didn't know what he was talking about when he made that estimation. He's never trained, so he has no frame of reference for how much power he'd get from training.

Tarble said Goku should be strong enough because Goku broke his scouter before he could read a high enough power level. Frieza's first form is also high enough to break a scouter so he really wouldn't know if he was truly strong enough to win for sure. And yes Goku's base power level should leave no doubt, but it seems like you are trying to imply that because base Goku had to go ssj to prove he was stronger then that must mean they are final form Frieza tier. this doesn't make sense because base Goten and Trunks were beating them. That means it doesn't matter which form they were talking about, base Goku was stronger. And since base Goku was stronger they can't be stronger than final form Frieza, because even if it isn't canon, it is in the same continuity as battle of gods, which states Frieza is stronger than base Goku. So from this we can assume that final form Frieza>base Goku>base Goten/Trunks>=Abo and Cado=first form Frieza.

I'm simply saying that the the special's depictions and indications of strength aren't reliable to go off of, because the scaling is so out of whack. Tarble indicated that he "should" be strong enough, meaning that somehow there was some still doubt in his mind despite the fact that he would have logically seen a high enough battle power to have no doubt that Goku would be strong enough.

I assume Piccolo knows how much ssj multipliers are so when he sense base Gotenks and said they might of gotten strong enough I assume he was taking the power of their ssj transformation into consideration.

He specifically stated after Gotenks transformed that he had no idea the boys could transform after fusing, so his statement about them standing a chance could only be in reference to Gotenks' base form. As such, the boys grew that much stronger in such a short time, so why is it unreasonable that they could reach Cell Games Goku level of strength in the years they had leading up to it.

[Awesome_Gotenks]

You must be joking with that last sentence. SSjin Goten and Trunks(Pre-RoSaT) are Vegeta and Trunks tier at least and Cell Games FPSSjin-tier at most IMHO, while Base Gotenks(Pre-RoSaT) was so powerful Krillin and Yamcha thought he stood a small chance against Fat Boo for a moment. That makes Base Gotenks several dozens of times stronger than SSjin Goten and Trunks, and a quick calculation makes Base Gotenks several hundreds if not thousands of times stronger than Base Goten & Trunks if you apply the 50x multiplier even after the fusion.

I'm pretty sure Piccolo said he new base Gotenks stood no chance against Fat Buu.

imo

ssj Goten and Trunks are Frieza tier
base Gotenks is perfect Cell tier
ssj Gotenks is fat Buu tier
ssj3 Gotenks is super Buu tier.

Goten and Trunks are literally dimensions above Freeza.

Chapter: 427 (DBZ 233), P12.2-6
Context: after Gohan and Goten spar a little bit
Goten: “But you really are amazing, big brother! I couldn’t even hit you once.”
Gohan: “You’re very gifted at grappling too, Goten! You really surprised me! I hadn’t known you were that good! If you train well, maybe you’ll be able to enter the Tenkaichi Budoukai too!”
Goten: “Really!? But Trunks is even stronger than me. We play-fight together!”
Gohan: “Really!? That’s how you guys have been playing?...*thinking* If I’m not careful, I’ll be outstripped…by these little squirts…”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

Chapter: 468 (DBZ 274), P12.7
Piccolo: “These two are our only hope…! Th-though it’s a faint hope…”
Note: this is before Fusion is mentioned

Piccolo knew Base Gotenks stood no chance against Fat Boo, but Yamcha and Krillin had their hopes up for a moment:

Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P12.5
Context: After Gotenks takes off, saying he'll beat Boo
Kuririn: “He-he’s pretty haughty, but just maybe he re-really will be able to take care of [Boo]…”
Yamcha: “Ye-yeah…He sure seemed pretty confident…”

The fact they thought Base Gotenks had any kind of chance even for just a second proves the gap between Fat Boo and Gotenks isn't tens of times.

[Awesome_Gotenks]

All that means to Piccolo is that base Gotenks would need to be no stronger than Ssj3 Goku for that to matter, as Piccolo believed Goku couldn't beat Fat Buu.

Just a slight correction; Piccolo didn't actually believe on Goku's lie. That's shown when he yells at Goten and Trunks for doubting Goku's power a couple of chapters after Goku's statement.

Goku also kind of admitted he was lying to Piccolo with his wording:

Goku: “No…I’m no longer a human who’s particularly even supposed to be here…I shouldn’t be the one to do it. It’d be better for these young guys to solve things somehow or another…After all, some other outrageous guy might show up eventually, right?

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The result of the any fusion is generally several ten of times stronger than their individuals.

Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta was stated to be several ten of times stronger than Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Vegeta. 5 seems like a reasonable number that fits the description of several. Anything more than 7 is probably pushing it. On equal levels, Gogeta would be at least 50x stronger than Goku & Vegeta.

Putting out numbers purely for example purposes using a 50x multiplier for fusion:


Base Goku: 60,000,000
Base Vegata: 60,000,000

Super Saiyan Goku: 3,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta: 3,000,000,000

Super Saiyan 2 Goku: 6,000,000,000
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta: 6,000,000,000

Super Saiyan 3 Goku: 24,000,000,000
These multipliers are supposedly what's in the Daizenshuu.
SSJ=50x
SSJ2=2xSSJ
SSJ3=4xSSJ2

Base Gogeta's power would scale off of Base Goku & Vegeta.
60,000,000x2x50=6,000,000,000

Base Gogeta: 6,000,000,000

Super Saiyan Gogeta: 300,000,000,000

Gogeta with mere Super Saiyan ends up over 10x stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

[dragon boss z]

If you want to argue that they dodged it rather than took the hit without being fazed, then even that supports Ssj Trunks being above Future Trunks at the time. If #17 and #18 can rip out #16's chamber and rush him out of there so fast that practically no one saw it before Trunks' blast (with enough power behind it to actually try and stop them) hit, but then #18 later panics over the speed of the attack that the suppressed Ssj Trunks fired at her, that would all the more indicate Trunks being well above Future Trunks at the time.

I really don't see how you can come to that conclusion, that the line was put in because they saw the others being that low. Everything given to us puts it as being far simpler, that he just didn't know what he was talking about when he made that estimation. He's never trained, so he has no frame of reference for how much power he'd get from training.

I'm simply saying that the the special's depictions and indications of strength aren't reliable to go off of, because the scaling is so out of whack. Tarble indicated that he "should" be strong enough, meaning that somehow there was some still doubt in his mind despite the fact that he would have logically seen a high enough battle power to have no doubt that Goku would be strong enough.

He specifically stated after Gotenks transformed that he had no idea the boys could transform after fusing, so his statement about them standing a chance could only be in reference to Gotenks' base form. As such, the boys grew that much stronger in such a short time, so why is it unreasonable that they could reach Cell Games Goku level of strength in the years they had leading up to it.

Everyone was focussed on trying to get out of the range of Trunk's blast. It wouldn't be that surprising for two massively hypersonic characters to get out without anyone noticing.

Toei wouldn't add a line like that just to confuse us. Shisamai pushing Piccolo is an even bigger consistency than the 1.3 million line anyways, so it's pretty obvious Toei just made a mistake. Almost every person who talks about it says it was most likely a mistake. That's why the got rid of the line in Super.

Tarbel's scouter probably blew up way before he saw a power level of over 530,000.

Weather or not base Gotenks was fat Buu level is irrelivant anyways considering we don't know exactly how strong fusion is.
And if base Gotenks could beat Fat Buu that would mean ssj3 Gotenks would be hundreds of times stronger than Goku.
And in an interview akira said Gotenks would only be a little stronger than Goku and it wouldn't be that noticeable.

[dragon boss z]

Goten and Trunks are literally dimensions above Freeza.

I'm not sure where you are getting these dimensions from. I only have androids 17 and 18 and twice Frieza's strength so even if Goten and Trunks were stronger than 18 they would only be a few times stronger than Frieza.

If it was confirmed Goten and Trunks were above 18 my numbers would be something like this
Frieza: 120 m
17/18: 225 m
ssj Goten/Trunks: 250-350 m

Though I still highly doubt they are that strong. They have yet to beat someone as strong or stronger than Frieza.
And if you want to go with quotes about how strong people are

Context: After Super Saiyan Goku has fought Beerus for a little bit
Beerus: “You’re pretty good. I can see how you managed to defeat Freeza. But if this is all you’ve got, defeating Freeza would probably be the best you’re capable of.”
Goku: “Oh, really…? See for yourself if that’s all I’m capable of.”

Chapter: 427 (DBZ 233), P12.2-6
Context: after Gohan and Goten spar a little bit
Goten: “But you really are amazing, big brother! I couldn’t even hit you once.”
Gohan: “You’re very gifted at grappling too, Goten! You really surprised me! I hadn’t known you were that good! If you train well, maybe you’ll be able to enter the Tenkaichi Budoukai too!”
Goten: “Really!? But Trunks is even stronger than me. We play-fight together!”
Gohan: “Really!? That’s how you guys have been playing?...*thinking* If I’m not careful, I’ll be outstripped…by these little squirts…”

Gohan was getting weaker and his 7 year old little brother was already a ssj and getting stronger by the day. Logically he would be outstripped by them if he wasn't careful.

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

Last time I checked an 8 year old that had even close to the same power as Frieza would be extremely dangerous.

Chapter: 468 (DBZ 274), P12.7
Piccolo: “These two are our only hope…! Th-though it’s a faint hope…”
Note: this is before Fusion is mentioned

Goten and Trunks were extremely strong an a young age making them prodigies. They still had a lot of room to grow. If Piccolo brought them into the time chamber to seriously train for a couple years they would of surpassed everyone that was alive at the time. And he even says they are only a faint hope.

Piccolo knew Base Gotenks stood no chance against Fat Boo, but Yamcha and Krillin had their hopes up for a moment:
Chapter: 480 (DBZ 286), P12.5
Context: After Gotenks takes off, saying he'll beat Boo
Kuririn: “He-he’s pretty haughty, but just maybe he re-really will be able to take care of [Boo]…”
Yamcha: “Ye-yeah…He sure seemed pretty confident…”

Yamcha mentioned it was because he seemed confident, not that his power felt incredible. I wouldn't put much stalk in that.

The fact they thought Base Gotenks had any kind of chance even for just a second proves the gap between Fat Boo and Gotenks isn't tens of times.

The only way that is possible is if the ssj mulliplier for fusions are different. I actually think this might be possible though.

[Darkprince410]

Everyone was focussed on trying to get out of the range of Trunk's blast. It wouldn't be that surprising for two massively hypersonic characters to get out without anyone noticing.

Toei wouldn't add a line like that just to confuse us. Shisamai pushing Piccolo is an even bigger consistency than the 1.3 million line anyways, so it's pretty obvious Toei just made a mistake. Almost every person who talks about it says it was most likely a mistake. That's why the got rid of the line in Super.

Tarbel's scouter probably blew up way before he saw a power level of over 530,000.

Weather or not base Gotenks was fat Buu level is irrelivant anyways considering we don't know exactly how strong fusion is.
And if base Gotenks could beat Fat Buu that would mean ssj3 Gotenks would be hundreds of times stronger than Goku.
And in an interview akira said Gotenks would only be a little stronger than Goku and it wouldn't be that noticeable.

1) That's not the point though. I'm saying that if she had dodged it, not only would it have been a casual dodge it without any sign of fear or panic over how powerful or fast the attack was, but also that she managed to dodge it by a significant amount, while Ssj Trunks at the start of the Buu arc was able to fire a weakened blast (from his perspective) that was still fast enough and powerful enough for her to panic over its speed and destructive force. That alone would put Trunks above his future counterpart.

So in either situation, that they took the blast head on and didn't even come out scratched, or that they effortlessly dodged it, it still ends up being that the situation is in Trunks' favor over his future counterpart.

2) There is no inconsistency with Shisami given what I've mentioned. It's clear he replaced Tagoma as far as the original script and storyboard denotes, and given that Tagoma was made to be powerful enough in Super due to training with Freeza, we can reasonably infer that he was meant to do the same in Revival of F, and thus Shisami trained with Freeza.

3) It didn't blow up until Goku transformed, and the scouter doesn't take that long to keep up with an individual's battle power increase, so there's no logical reason for his battle power to have only spiked to half a million when

4) Given the two official comparisons between the Metamorese fusion and the constituent fighters, we can infer that the difference between them is less than 100x. The Son Goku Densetsu lists Gotenks as being "many times" stronger than Goten and Trunks, and the GT Perfect Files lists Ssj4 Gogeta as being "many tens of times" stronger than Ssj4 Goku and Vegeta were.

Additionally, Toriyama's never said any such thing in an interview at all. Wherever you read or heard that from made it up.

[dragon boss z]

1) That's not the point though. I'm saying that if she had dodged it, not only would it have been a casual dodge it without any sign of fear or panic over how powerful or fast the attack was, but also that she managed to dodge it by a significant amount, while Ssj Trunks at the start of the Buu arc was able to fire a weakened blast (from his perspective) that was still fast enough and powerful enough for her to panic over its speed and destructive force. That alone would put Trunks above his future counterpart.

2) There is no inconsistency with Shisami given what I've mentioned. It's clear he replaced Tagoma as far as the original script and storyboard denotes, and given that Tagoma was made to be powerful enough in Super due to training with Freeza, we can reasonably infer that he was meant to do the same in Revival of F, and thus Shisami trained with Freeza.

3) It didn't blow up until Goku transformed, and the scouter doesn't take that long to keep up with an individual's battle power increase, so there's no logical reason for his battle power to have only spiked to half a million when

4) Given the two official comparisons between the Metamorese fusion and the constituent fighters, we can infer that the difference between them is less than 100x. The Son Goku Densetsu lists Gotenks as being "many times" stronger than Goten and Trunks, and the GT Perfect Files lists Ssj4 Gogeta as being "many tens of times" stronger than Ssj4 Goku and Vegeta were.

Additionally, Toriyama's never said any such thing in an interview at all. Wherever you read or heard that from made it up.

1. To me it seems to be implied 18 thought the ki blast was strong from the size of the explosion, which I know doesn't make too much sense, but that seems to be what is implied considering Toriyama went out of his way to make the explosion big and have people react to it. As for the speed, the speed of ki blasts can be altered so just because kid Trunk's ki blast was faster doesn't mean he is more powerful than future Trunks. 18 was prepared to fight children so when an attack that fast and powerful came at her it completely caught her off guard.

2. That would only work if Super came out before RoF. Shisami didn't take Tagoma's role, Tagoma took Shismai's role and this time they gave an explanation for why he was strong. It wasn't implied or hinted at all that Shismai trained with Frieza. Frieza most likely trained by himself in RoF. It's possible Shisami trained with Frieza but that is just a complete guess. RoF is a standalone movie that has nothing to do with Super so if you can't infer Shismai trained with Frieza by watching RoF it shouldn't be considered to have happened.

3. Even if it read Goku's max in his base, that still would line up with being enough to beat 2 first form Frieza level characters. Also you are thinking to much into it. It was just a scene to show of Goku's power. They decided to make the scouter break when Goku went ssj to make it look cool.

4. Yes but their isn't an official multiplier for any type of fusion. Multipliers don't really work well since Toriyama doesn't take them into consideration when writing.

[Darkprince410]

1) Except that her response to it was a deadly technique to try and disqualify them. There is legitimately no reason for her to throw an attack that would kill them if it connected if she could simply rush them and knock them unconscious, which would easily be possible if they were as weak as you suggest. You say that Toriyama wrote her using a ki-enzan because he wanted them split, but to me, it seems evident that he had her using a ki-enzan because he wanted to show that she had no other means of winning. That it was either try and disqualify them or lose because they were too powerful for her.

2) As said, in the original storyboard of Revival of F, it was Tagoma that fought against Piccolo, so Shisami took Tagoma's role for whatever reason between the storyboard and the final part of the movie. Given this, and how we saw him portrayed in Super, we can infer that Tagoma was likely to have trained to get stronger in Revival of F as well, and thus that carried over when Shisami replaced Tagoma in the final version.

3) Isn't that being a bit contradictory? Saying for me to not look too much into the scene in question, when you're looking far too much into the scene with #18 and Ssj Trunks and Goten. In the simplest, most straightforward way of looking at the scene, it's clear Toriyama added it to show that the boys were stronger than #18. He put those scenes in with Gohan feeling the boys would soon surpass him and Vegeta struggling to dodge and defend against Trunks attacks because he wanted to show they were close to the adults. It's just that's the simplest way to look at it.

4) Regardless of Toriyama following formulas or not, what was clear is that he wrote Gotenks as being a drastic step above Goku power wise. Officially though, the end fusion can't be more than 100x, so given how powerful Gotenks is implied and indicated to be, it'd mean the boys have to be exceptionally powerful too.

[Awesome_Gotenks]

I have Goten and Trunks stronger than Vegeta and Trunks from the Cell Saga.

[dragon boss z]

1) Except that her response to it was a deadly technique to try and disqualify them. There is legitimately no reason for her to throw an attack that would kill them if it connected if she could simply rush them and knock them unconscious, which would easily be possible if they were as weak as you suggest. You say that Toriyama wrote her using a ki-enzan because he wanted them split, but to me, it seems evident that he had her using a ki-enzan because he wanted to show that she had no other means of winning. That it was either try and disqualify them or lose because they were too powerful for her.

2) As said, in the original storyboard of Revival of F, it was Tagoma that fought against Piccolo, so Shisami took Tagoma's role for whatever reason between the storyboard and the final part of the movie. Given this, and how we saw him portrayed in Super, we can infer that Tagoma was likely to have trained to get stronger in Revival of F as well, and thus that carried over when Shisami replaced Tagoma in the final version.

3) Isn't that being a bit contradictory? Saying for me to not look too much into the scene in question, when you're looking far too much into the scene with #18 and Ssj Trunks and Goten. In the simplest, most straightforward way of looking at the scene, it's clear Toriyama added it to show that the boys were stronger than #18. He put those scenes in with Gohan feeling the boys would soon surpass him and Vegeta struggling to dodge and defend against Trunks attacks because he wanted to show they were close to the adults. It's just that's the simplest way to look at it.

4) Regardless of Toriyama following formulas or not, what was clear is that he wrote Gotenks as being a drastic step above Goku power wise. Officially though, the end fusion can't be more than 100x, so given how powerful Gotenks is implied and indicated to be, it'd mean the boys have to be exceptionally powerful too.

1. There is no logical reason for her to resort to a lethal attack when she can just surrender. You telling me 18 chose a lethal attack to use on children instead of surrendering is telling me you think she is pretty much evil.

2.Do you have a link of the original story board? I haven't seen this.

3. Maybe. I just see it as their power just completely shocks everyone due to their age. For example if a pro mma fighter was sparring with a 8 year old kid and then all of a sudden that 8 year old starts throwing punches as strong as an adults, that would freak the mma fighter out, even though an mma fighter would easily beat a normal adult. I agree there is a fair chance Toriyama may of wanted them to be stronger than 18, but without solid evidence or a solid statement we can't say for sure. I also personally believe the androids are weak in the ki blast department. They are more of brawlers. If my memory serves me correctly 18 didn't use any ki attacks while fighting Vegeta and 17 didn't use any while fighting Piccolo.

[Darkprince410]

1) If we look at it as Toriyama wanting/needing her to win, so that the boys could go check out what's going out with Buu, it does make sense from a writing perspective. She wanted to win, but couldn't beat them without disqualifying them, so she resorted to the ki-enzan. He essentially needed her to win, but had no alternative way for her to win given how powerful he had had the boys in mind as being.

2) As you can see from this image of the storyboard, it was Tagoma (can see by his unique scouter) that confronted Gohan and was dispatched by him, so Tagoma was the original, and Shisami replaced him, only to be replaced once again by Tagoma in Super with an explanation given this time as to why he was so powerful.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

3) All the anecdotal evidence supports the boys being more powerful than #18 and right up there with their fathers and Gohan strength wise. Shock at how powerful they were wouldn't explain Vegeta's overall difficulty in defending himself against Trunks (as he could already sense how powerful Trunks was) the way that simply being right up there in terms of strength with his father would explain it. Or that Piccolo would see Goten and Trunks, even before learning about Fusion, as being their only hopes. Sure, one can argue there that he was meaning their potential, but given how immediate of a threat Buu was, it still really wouldn't make sense for him to put so much faith in them if they were miles behind their fathers or even behind Freeza arc Ssj Goku.

[dragon boss z]

1) If we look at it as Toriyama wanting/needing her to win, so that the boys could go check out what's going out with Buu, it does make sense from a writing perspective. She wanted to win, but couldn't beat them without disqualifying them, so she resorted to the ki-enzan. He essentially needed her to win, but had no alternative way for her to win given how powerful he had had the boys in mind as being.

Or he just thought that would be the best way to move on from the tournament. He didn't want them to run away, he wanted them to be revealed, and what better way than to destroy their costume. Also them being cut in half was supposed to be funny because everyone thought mighty mask died. Toriyama also likes comedy in his manga.

2) As you can see from this image of the storyboard, it was Tagoma (can see by his unique scouter) that confronted Gohan and was dispatched by him, so Tagoma was the original, and Shisami replaced him, only to be replaced once again by Tagoma in Super with an explanation given this time as to why he was so powerful.

Ya but it was never a part of the story board for Tagoma to of trained with Frieza. And in RoF Piccolo said he could win (which could also mean Piccolo was holding back). In Super Piccolo got insta stomped and Togama had a super hard body from being tortured. That Tagoma is nothing like the Shisama/would be Tagoma of RoF.

3) All the anecdotal evidence supports the boys being more powerful than #18 and right up there with their fathers and Gohan strength wise. Shock at how powerful they were wouldn't explain Vegeta's overall difficulty in defending himself against Trunks (as he could already sense how powerful Trunks was) the way that simply being right up there in terms of strength with his father would explain it. Or that Piccolo would see Goten and Trunks, even before learning about Fusion, as being their only hopes. Sure, one can argue there that he was meaning their potential, but given how immediate of a threat Buu was, it still really wouldn't make sense for him to put so much faith in them if they were miles behind their fathers or even behind Freeza arc Ssj Goku.

I could bring up how Yamcha, Krillin, and Tien fought Cell jr.'s even thought they should be thousands of times stronger than them, or how Tien held back Cell even though he was no match for the androids. Their are many things in dragon ball where logical strength is ignored. Toriyama pretty much threw power levels out and everyone's strength is just relevant to the plot. Goten and Trunk's strength was meant to be amazingly strong for their age and with power that could even put the adults on guard. Base Goten also scared ssj Gohan with a rock he threw. Gohan barely dodged it and was impressed by the speed and power. Gohan also feared for his safety. So is base Goten stronger than ssj Gohan? By your logic he is.

[Darkprince410]

Ya but it was never a part of the story board for Tagoma to of trained with Frieza. And in RoF Piccolo said he could win (which could also mean Piccolo was holding back). In Super Piccolo got insta stomped and Togama had a super hard body from being tortured. That Tagoma is nothing like the Shisama/would be Tagoma of RoF.

Or it can simply be that Super explained what we were meant to always assume happened in Revival of F. It's similar to Vegeta obtaining Ssj Blue, that Super explained in greater detail what was left generally unexplained in the movie. It's so much simpler to believe that they trained along with Freeza to reach a level where they could match/surpass Piccolo than it is to assume that Toriyama, who had read his manga during the course of writing Revival of F to refresh himself, left Shisami/Tagoma that weak and had Piccolo that weak as a result.

I could bring up how Yamcha, Krillin, and Tien fought Cell jr.'s even thought they should be thousands of times stronger than them, or how Tien held back Cell even though he was no match for the androids. Their are many things in dragon ball where logical strength is ignored. Toriyama pretty much threw power levels out and everyone's strength is just relevant to the plot. Goten and Trunk's strength was meant to be amazingly strong for their age and with power that could even put the adults on guard. Base Goten also scared ssj Gohan with a rock he threw. Gohan barely dodged it and was impressed by the speed and power. Gohan also feared for his safety. So is base Goten stronger than ssj Gohan? By your logic he is.

They never "fought" the Cell Jrs though. Given what's shown in the manga, they weren't able to put up any kind of fight against them and were thrown around and beat up effortlessly. The only reason that they weren't outright killed was because Cell had wanted them to prolong the Z Senshi's torture to further anger Gohan. Likewise, the Shin Ki Kou Hou is a massively powerful technique, stated to make the Kamehameha look like nothing in comparison, so it makes some sense that, using the technique at the cost of massive amounts of his ki, he could temporarily hold Cell back.

No, because with that Gohan example you gave, there's at least evidence shown later to discredit it. There is, however, nothing within Toriyama's original work that discredits the boys being of comparable strength to Gohan and their fathers. We have the Daizenshuu entry for Goten, we have Gohan's statement about the boys in relation to him, we have Vegeta's difficulty in defending and evading Trunks' attacks, we have #18 panicking over a suppressed ki blast fired by Trunks, we have Piccolo's comment about the boys being their only hope in a very short period of time, etc.

Gohan showed us that being exceptionally powerful wasn't restricted to age, as when he was only 10/11 years old, he surpassed everyone else and became the strongest fighter within the story. Why then is it that unreasonable that Goten and Trunks, born as tailless hybrids and thus established prodigies (as stated within the Daizenshuu) can reach amazing levels of power at a younger age than Gohan? That's the point that is generally pushed within the manga. Not that they're simply amazingly strong for their age (and not actually strong when compared to any of the heavy hitters), but that they're amazingly strong period even when compared to the strongest fighters around, and it's even more shocking when their age is taken into account.