How many people are sick of Beerus?

[GodVegetto91]

We have not seen Beerus at full force, he could probably kill SSB x10 kaikoen in 1 second.

Well as of the latest episode of Super it is confirmed that Current SSJ Blue Goku is even stronger than his KK x10 SSJ Blue Version during the tournament.

Both Hit and Goku have grown tremendously since that time in this last year of rigorous training. And yet Beerus is still far above them.

Current SSJ Blue Goku > KK x10 SSJ Blue Goku (U6 arc)

I don't see how current SSB Goku can be stronger than Kaioken ×10 SSB Goku from the Universe 6 arc. I think it is just Toei making things not make sense as usual.

Then perhaps you either didn't watch the episode, or didn't pay any attention to it. I can't believe i have to explain it again, but here goes.

During the tournament Hit was keeping up with KK x10 SSJ Blue Goku.
Right now Hit was stated to have improved so much. He's almost unrecognisable.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 0533999616

And Goku was keeping up with that! WITHOUT kaioken. All by himself! He was keeping up with an even stronger Hit than the tournament without any need for Kaioken.

(It's been almost a year of training, so why shouldn't it be!?) Goku got his ass beat and fought the entire time against Black and Zamasu in the future. During Episode 71 Goku even was surprised that Hit took his back so easily. (He didn't think that would happen). If Hit truly was 10 times stronger than Goku, then Goku never would have said such a thing.

[Lord Beerus]

I enjoy Beerus as a character but it still bothers me how he hasn't been surpassed after all this time. The constant retconning of his power gets annoying and seems very irrelevant knowing that beings like Whis and the Omni-King are beyond Beerus in every way in terms of power.

I think that a fight with Beerus after every arc would be nice in order to gauge Goku and Vegeta.

Honestly, it should stay way. I don't think any of the main cast should get to Beerus' level. It's about time the likes of Goku and Vegeta hit a glass ceiling.

[Simere]

I enjoy Beerus as a character but it still bothers me how he hasn't been surpassed after all this time. The constant retconning of his power gets annoying and seems very irrelevant knowing that beings like Whis and the Omni-King are beyond Beerus in every way in terms of power.

I think that a fight with Beerus after every arc would be nice in order to gauge Goku and Vegeta.

Honestly, it should stay way. I don't think any of the main cast should get to Beerus' level. It's about time the likes of Goku and Vegeta hit a glass ceiling.

Why is it time? What's so special about this set of gods in particular that the series should abandon its limits can't hold you back theme?

[Lord Beerus]

I enjoy Beerus as a character but it still bothers me how he hasn't been surpassed after all this time. The constant retconning of his power gets annoying and seems very irrelevant knowing that beings like Whis and the Omni-King are beyond Beerus in every way in terms of power.

I think that a fight with Beerus after every arc would be nice in order to gauge Goku and Vegeta.

Honestly, it should stay way. I don't think any of the main cast should get to Beerus' level. It's about time the likes of Goku and Vegeta hit a glass ceiling.

Why is it time? What's so special about this set of gods in particular that the series should abandon its limits can't hold you back theme?

Because the "limits can't hold you back" theme is directly responsible for the power scaling bloating as badly as it did in the original manga and the new additional stories (BOG, ROF and Super). Why do you think Golden Freeza was a thing? I mean, if Goku and Vegeta become stronger than Beerus, especially after all that we've seen, than what purpose would the supporting cast have at that stage? Super Saiyan Blue should be their limit and from that point on they should come up with creative ways to compensate for the gap in strength to defeat any opponents who are stronger than them. It can work with proper writing. Look at Piccolo vs. Frost, for example. It's time that fights in Dragon Ball return to the more tactical side.

[Muffin Man]

What really annoys me about Beerus is how everyone is always bowing and scraping to him all the time. I get that they want to show off that he's a big deal, but it comes at the expense of other characters (namely Freeza and Vegeta). It also annoys me that a character can be so stuck up and arrogant for so long without getting any sort of comeuppance. It's not satisfying. I want to see him get the crap beaten out of him by a mortal so he can either learn humility (like Vegeta) or be humiliated (like Freeza).

Also, the moment Goku hits a ceiling is the moment DB loses all purpose in continuing. If you want a story where heroes have to work within static power limits, go watch/read an american superhero story. DB established a concept that its hero could always get stronger, it's one of the key concepts that make Goku so endearing, that he is primarily motivated by his desire to expand his limits. Without that, Goku has no reason to fight, and we have no reason to watch him fight. It becomes pointless.

[HeroR]

Because the "limits can't hold you back" theme is directly responsible for the power scaling bloating as badly as it did in the original manga and the new additional stories (BOG, ROF and Super). Why do you think Golden Freeza was a thing? I mean, if Goku and Vegeta become stronger than Beerus, especially after all that we've seen, than what purpose would the supporting cast have at that stage? Super Saiyan Blue should be their limit and from that point on they should come up with creative ways to compensate for the gap in strength to defeat any opponents who are stronger than them. It can work with proper writing. Look at Piccolo vs. Frost, for example. It's time that fights in Dragon Ball return to the more tactical side.

Goku will surpass Beerus one day. The entire theme of Dragon Ball since the beginning is breaking one limits and Beerus is just the current barrier. Even more, Beerus isn't even the strongest person around even in his universe. It's pointless to complain about power scaling at this stage. Also we did see a more tactical with this past episode. It's just in Dragon Ball, tactics alone means crap if you don't have the power to back it up.

[namekiansaiyan]

Well as of the latest episode of Super it is confirmed that Current SSJ Blue Goku is even stronger than his KK x10 SSJ Blue Version during the tournament.

Both Hit and Goku have grown tremendously since that time in this last year of rigorous training. And yet Beerus is still far above them.

Current SSJ Blue Goku > KK x10 SSJ Blue Goku (U6 arc)

I don't see how current SSB Goku can be stronger than Kaioken ×10 SSB Goku from the Universe 6 arc. I think it is just Toei making things not make sense as usual.

Then perhaps you either didn't watch the episode, or didn't pay any attention to it. I can't believe i have to explain it again, but here goes.

During the tournament Hit was keeping up with KK x10 SSJ Blue Goku.
Right now Hit was stated to have improved so much. He's almost unrecognisable.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 0533999616

And Goku was keeping up with that! WITHOUT kaioken. All by himself! He was keeping up with an even stronger Hit than the tournament without any need for Kaioken.

(It's been almost a year of training, so why shouldn't it be!?) Goku got his ass beat and fought the entire time against Black and Zamasu in the future. During Episode 71 Goku even was surprised that Hit took his back so easily. (He didn't think that would happen). If Hit truly was 10 times stronger than Goku, then Goku never would have said such a thing.

That is my point I believe the opposite to you. He spent 3 years in the chamber with Vegeta and they barely got stronger. Vegeta even said they are near their limits. Them boosts after fighting don't happen for Saiyans anymore. But as usual we have to make Goku stronger but can't give this special treatment to other characters.

[HeroR]

That is my point I believe the opposite to you. He spent 3 years in the chamber with Vegeta and they barely got stronger. Vegeta even said they are near their limits. Them boosts after fighting don't happen for Saiyans anymore. But as usual we have to make Goku stronger but can't give this special treatment to other characters.

At the same time, Vegeta did say he felt himself getting stronger while sparring with Goku in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber. We also don't know if they 'barely got stronger' since the only power comparison would be Golden Freeza and no one made the statements, 'such and such surpassed Freeza'. However, we know Goku got 10x stronger from the Champa Saga until now because Goku didn't need the Kaioken to fight a Hit who was much stronger. Goku even said that Hit's Time-Skip wouldn't work anymore, the same Time-Skip that froze Kaioken x10 Goku, and Hit agreed. He didn't even try to used it against Goku in their rematch. We also know that Goku and Vegeta got stronger from facing Black and Future Zamasu since Black himself got stronger from battle.

So, they were probably were reaching their limits back then and then broke them. Goku also claimed that he reached his limits during the Cell Games.

[Anime Kitten]

Did i say EVERY fan loves him!??

Not directly (I guess I overreacted a little, apologies), but you did write this:

But i guess people will complain about anything these days.

Implying the people that don't like him are in the wrong somehow. At least, that's how I interpreted it.

[GodVegetto91]

I don't see how current SSB Goku can be stronger than Kaioken ×10 SSB Goku from the Universe 6 arc. I think it is just Toei making things not make sense as usual.

Then perhaps you either didn't watch the episode, or didn't pay any attention to it. I can't believe i have to explain it again, but here goes.

During the tournament Hit was keeping up with KK x10 SSJ Blue Goku.
Right now Hit was stated to have improved so much. He's almost unrecognisable.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 0533999616

And Goku was keeping up with that! WITHOUT kaioken. All by himself! He was keeping up with an even stronger Hit than the tournament without any need for Kaioken.

(It's been almost a year of training, so why shouldn't it be!?) Goku got his ass beat and fought the entire time against Black and Zamasu in the future. During Episode 71 Goku even was surprised that Hit took his back so easily. (He didn't think that would happen). If Hit truly was 10 times stronger than Goku, then Goku never would have said such a thing.

That is my point I believe the opposite to you. He spent 3 years in the chamber with Vegeta and they barely got stronger. Vegeta even said they are near their limits. Them boosts after fighting don't happen for Saiyans anymore. But as usual we have to make Goku stronger but can't give this special treatment to other characters.

The whole "we've reached our absolute limit" is just a plot device. It's bullshit. We know that for a fact, since it's happened several times before where Goku and Vegeta said such a thing. And yet they kept surpassing their limits anyhow. We now have a true powerscaling comparison. One that made Goku at least 10 times stronger. This whole "having reached your limit" is only temporary. It's always temporary. And has always been.
The reason why they can make Goku and Vegeta many times stronger again, is because of Beerus retconned superiority. Right now they've pretty much implied that they can make Beerus as strong as he needs to be. (Even if it is hundreds of times stronger) thus enough room for Goku & Vegeta to grow many times stronger in that gap.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Then perhaps you either didn't watch the episode, or didn't pay any attention to it. I can't believe i have to explain it again, but here goes.

During the tournament Hit was keeping up with KK x10 SSJ Blue Goku.
Right now Hit was stated to have improved so much. He's almost unrecognisable.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 0533999616

And Goku was keeping up with that! WITHOUT kaioken. All by himself! He was keeping up with an even stronger Hit than the tournament without any need for Kaioken.

(It's been almost a year of training, so why shouldn't it be!?) Goku got his ass beat and fought the entire time against Black and Zamasu in the future. During Episode 71 Goku even was surprised that Hit took his back so easily. (He didn't think that would happen). If Hit truly was 10 times stronger than Goku, then Goku never would have said such a thing.

That is my point I believe the opposite to you. He spent 3 years in the chamber with Vegeta and they barely got stronger. Vegeta even said they are near their limits. Them boosts after fighting don't happen for Saiyans anymore. But as usual we have to make Goku stronger but can't give this special treatment to other characters.

The whole "we've reached our absolute limit" is just a plot device. It's bullshit. We know that for a fact, since it's happened several times before where Goku and Vegeta said such a thing. And yet they kept surpassing their limits anyhow. We now have a true powerscaling comparison. One that made Goku at least 10 times stronger. This whole "having reached your limit" is only temporary. It's always temporary. And has always been.
The reason why they can make Goku and Vegeta many times stronger again, is because of Beerus retconned superiority. Right now they've pretty much implied that they can make Beerus as strong as he needs to be. (Even if it is hundreds of times stronger) thus enough room for Goku & Vegeta to grow many times stronger in that gap.

This.

The reaching their limit thing is a plot device and can in most circumstances be attributed to the fact they were already stronger than everyone else. The best way to become better at something is to be challenged by someone better than you are. Without this their progress most likely stalled for a while making Vegeta feel these things.

[GodVegetto91]

That is my point I believe the opposite to you. He spent 3 years in the chamber with Vegeta and they barely got stronger. Vegeta even said they are near their limits. Them boosts after fighting don't happen for Saiyans anymore. But as usual we have to make Goku stronger but can't give this special treatment to other characters.

The whole "we've reached our absolute limit" is just a plot device. It's bullshit. We know that for a fact, since it's happened several times before where Goku and Vegeta said such a thing. And yet they kept surpassing their limits anyhow. We now have a true powerscaling comparison. One that made Goku at least 10 times stronger. This whole "having reached your limit" is only temporary. It's always temporary. And has always been.
The reason why they can make Goku and Vegeta many times stronger again, is because of Beerus retconned superiority. Right now they've pretty much implied that they can make Beerus as strong as he needs to be. (Even if it is hundreds of times stronger) thus enough room for Goku & Vegeta to grow many times stronger in that gap.

This.

The reaching their limit thing is a plot device and can in most circumstances be attributed to the fact they were already stronger than everyone else. The best way to become better at something is to be challenged by someone better than you are. Without this their progress most likely stalled for a while making Vegeta feel these things.

Indeed. Just look at the power-increase comparison between the Vegeta who trained a whole 3 years in the rosat prior to the tournament and the Vegeta who got beaten down by Black and then entered for only 6 months. Unlike the first time, now Vegeta actually had something to train for. I visible wall which he can try to overcome(Goku Black) whilst earlier they only had the tournament to train for. This is the real reason why Vegeta gained so much strength in such a short amount of time.

[Simere]

Honestly, it should stay way. I don't think any of the main cast should get to Beerus' level. It's about time the likes of Goku and Vegeta hit a glass ceiling.

Why is it time? What's so special about this set of gods in particular that the series should abandon its limits can't hold you back theme?

Because the "limits can't hold you back" theme is directly responsible for the power scaling bloating as badly as it did in the original manga and the new additional stories (BOG, ROF and Super).

Yes, and that's directly responsible for the success of the original manga. Maybe power scaling is a pet peeve of yours, but are you really going to deny that what you're calling bad is what most fans found awesome?

I mean, if Goku and Vegeta become stronger than Beerus, especially after all that we've seen, than what purpose would the supporting cast have at that stage?

I assume you're referring to the likes of Yamcha, Krillin and Tien? Even if they don't become stronger than Beerus it's not like that's going to help them.

Personally, I see no reason for the story to bend itself to keep them relevant. That's not what you do for support characters. If the story outpaced them, then leave them behind. New support characters as strong or stronger than the GoDs can be introduced. Hell, have GoDs as support characters.

Also, DB and Toriyama have made it clear throughout the series that supporting characters are never going to be the larger role some people want them to be.

Super Saiyan Blue should be their limit and from that point on they should come up with creative ways to compensate for the gap in strength to defeat any opponents who are stronger than them. It can work with proper writing. Look at Piccolo vs. Frost, for example. It's time that fights in Dragon Ball return to the more tactical side.

It wouldn't be proper writing to all of a sudden have much weaker characters be able to challenge stronger ones. Why couldn't they at any point previously in the series? It was demonstrated over and over and over again. You can't just back out of that now.

Personally again, Piccolo winning versus a weakened Frost in a tournament match was awesome, but it was based in trickery not strength. A gimmick once figured out doesn't work anymore. The idea of Goku being reduced to forever being a cheeser sounds awful to me.

[namekiansaiyan]

Why is it time? What's so special about this set of gods in particular that the series should abandon its limits can't hold you back theme?

Because the "limits can't hold you back" theme is directly responsible for the power scaling bloating as badly as it did in the original manga and the new additional stories (BOG, ROF and Super).

Yes, and that's directly responsible for the success of the original manga. Maybe power scaling is a pet peeve of yours, but are you really going to deny that what you're calling bad is what most fans found awesome?

I mean, if Goku and Vegeta become stronger than Beerus, especially after all that we've seen, than what purpose would the supporting cast have at that stage?

I assume you're referring to the likes of Yamcha, Krillin and Tien? Even if they don't become stronger than Beerus it's not like that's going to help them.

Personally, I see no reason for the story to bend itself to keep them relevant. That's not what you do for support characters. If the story outpaced them, then leave them behind. New support characters as strong or stronger than the GoDs can be introduced. Hell, have GoDs as support characters.

Also, DB and Toriyama have made it clear throughout the series that supporting characters are never going to be the larger role some people want them to be.

Super Saiyan Blue should be their limit and from that point on they should come up with creative ways to compensate for the gap in strength to defeat any opponents who are stronger than them. It can work with proper writing. Look at Piccolo vs. Frost, for example. It's time that fights in Dragon Ball return to the more tactical side.

It wouldn't be proper writing to all of a sudden have much weaker characters be able to challenge stronger ones. Why couldn't they at any point previously in the series? It was demonstrated over and over and over again. You can't just back out of that now.

Personally, Piccolo winning versus a weakened Frost in a tournament match was awesome, but it was based in trickery not strength. A gimmick once figured out doesn't work anymore. The idea of Goku being reduced to forever being a cheeser sounds awful to me.

Since all characters are really powerful maybe Toriyama can change it to more skill based as since the differrnce in power now makes no difference. It is definitely something he should have done at the start of Super.

[kinisking]

Beerus was interesting in BOG and was meh ever since. I'll admit he was pretty interesting in episode 69 when he came, made the mood all tense, and then dipped out though. His food enthusiasm isn't even the slightest bit funny.

[Ki Breaker]

His food enthusiasm isn't even the slightest bit funny.

It's more of "what do we have them do to not interfere with the Battle and end it in one sec" thing now, make them eat so they don't end Everything in a heartbeat.
Berrus's food porn lost it's luster in bog itself