Does anyone else think Super is awful?

[DHM211]

I felt the Battle of Gods arc (minus episodes 1 and 11) was bad. Not to mention, this arc removed things that were in the movie (Trunks and Mais relationship).

I felt the Resurrection of F' arc was a disgrace to the fans, to its movie counterpart, and to the entirety of Dragon Ball.

It didn't explain why the Pilaf gang were younger and it didn't have Goku say he put his pride on the side to accept SsjG because Vegeta put his on the side to protect earth.

You have to give it credit for episode 27, it had Vegeta save Goku instead of waiting for him to die, he also got a better fight with Freeza, earth exploding was done a lot better & the arc didn't end right after the fight.

To be honest I didn't find Vegeta's fight in Super to be better then the movie version. Yes, it was longer, but it comes down to quality vs quantity. The art during the super version fight seemed off model, and the animation seemed wonky. Not to mention the music that played was a really awful DB Kai TFC piece that didn't fit the scene at all(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vK_u3AStQA).
While the Movie's fight scene had no music (which I also didn't like),the lack of music at least gave me the ability to easily add in music that I thought would actually fit the scene. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1NBqC2 ... e=youtu.be

While it was a "nice" touch that Super showed what the family's of the Z fighters were doing when earth blew up, I actually enjoyed the effects and music that the movie used more.

I do agree the ending was much better.

One thing I forgot to mention was that I liked how Super made Goku drop his SSJB form before getting shot by Sorbes laser gun.

[Doctor.]

I still think the F arc is a big improvement over the atrocious film that is a complete insult to anyone who's a fan of this franchise.

[DHM211]

I still think the F arc is a big improvement over the atrocious film that is a complete insult to anyone who's a fan of this franchise.

I disagree. They're essentially the same story. Piccolo dying in super had no effect what so ever. He was wished back(off screen) by the end of the of the arc. Togoma surving had no effect on the story. Ginyu retuning had no effect on the story. Gotenks making an appearance had no effect on the story. Gohan getting humiliated had no effect on the story. (Not to mention, Gohans power was already nerfed in the movie, but Super just destroyed him. I'm not even a Gohan fan yet I thought what that arc did to Gohan was atrocious.) All these things did was pad the arc out so it could last longer. Usually, if something is designed for a hour and a half film, stretching it out to 13 episodes is going to make it seem tiresome. I'm not sure if you're a fan of Kai, but I am, and this was a major step backwards from what Kai did.

So we basically got the exact same story, except one had a score designed specifically for each scene in it, and had a movie level budget for its art & animation. Then we have another version that just has a generic score thats made for the whole series, a much lower animation budget, and an extremely rushed animation schedule. When those things mix, we get stuff that looks like episode 24.

Resurrection 'F is a mainly action oriented story, and when it comes to action in Dragon Ball, something with a movie level budget is just going to portray it better then something with a weekly anime budget and time schedule.

Thats just my opinion though. Would you mind sharing what you enjoyed more about the arc then the movie?

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I've seen few shows this season, but from the ones I've seen or taken a look at (Ajin, Flip Flappers, Pokémon Sun & Moon, Drifters and Keijo), they're incomparably worse than DBS. It's embarrassing the amount of absolute dogshit the industry is putting out these days.

Yeah 2016 was pretty rough especially the winter season it had a lot of hype but honestly there wasn't a lot of good shows.

[Doctor.]

Would you mind sharing what you enjoyed more about the arc then the movie?

It's still terrible, don't get me wrong, but it fixes so much of the film's faults and actually seems to try to improve on the writing that I can't fault it for the effort.

It fixes the plot hole about the number of wishes Shenron can grant. It cuts out the completely idiotic "I'll achieve a battle power of 1.3 million!" line. It makes Goku turn back to his base form before he gets shot by Sorbet, making the scene, which was the main complaint from even the people who liked the movie, a lot more believable as a result.

I felt that the arc actually bothered to respect Freeza's character, too. Not only is he much more threatening and ruthless in the Super version, but he actually makes his appearance impactful by torturing Gohan and killing off Piccolo. You say the scenes were useless, I disagree, they add to Freeza's threat, no? Piccolo's death was very poorly executed, I agree, but I feel like Freeza torturing Gohan was phenomenal and it was, and is, one of the best scenes in DBS as a whole. Then there's the whole PTSD thing and the fact that he kept teasing Kuririn throughout the battle. Ah, and Freeza actually tried to play dirty and attack not only Goku's friends but Goku himself when he had his eyes closed. Freeza's character in general just had much more personality during the first two thirds of the arc than he did in the movie, where he basically stood around and did nothing and the latter third is him getting humiliated and being treated as a joke by everyone. And also the arc doesn't insult Freeza, and the audience's, intelligence by making Freeza stupidly believe that Vegeta still had some loyalty left and offer him the killing blow on Goku. I mean, not only is that completely out-of-character for Freeza to do, but makes him look like a colossal idiot. The arc got rid of that stupid litle sub-plot as early as possible (with a pretty cool scene of Vegeta mocking Freeza, I may add) and when Freeza is trying to kill Goku, it's Vegeta that intervenes, making it so that NONE of the parties involved looks like an idiot.

The movie's plot was barebones. It introduced two new transformations and it didn't show or hint at how the characters achieved them. At least the arc made an effort, not a very good one, but one nonetheless. Goku's character is improved too. In the movie he was all buddy-buddy with Freeza throughout the entire fight, for some reason. In the arc, he's furious that Freeza killed Piccolo. The arc is still limited by the fact that Goku did offer to let Freeza go in the original version, so they had to do that as well, but they did try to make an effort of keeping Goku in-character, which the film absolutely did not do.

The writing is just much better. If I were to rewatch the arc again, I could find plenty of little things that are improvements over the film, most of the scenes of the Super counterpart are improvements. The animation quality didn't bother me because the film's fight choreography was terrible and a snoozefest, I even think some cuts of the Golden Freeza vs Goku fight in Super are even better than in the movie. I thought the movie was a shameless cashgrab and the biggest insult this franchise has ever seen since Evolution; the arc tries to improve on it but is ultimately let down by playing it too close to the original script.

[SsjCookie]

There are some great moments and arcs in this show, so it's not completely awful to me.
What I absolutely don't like about this show is the sometimes childish and sloppy animation.
In comparison with DBZ it's all very toned down and mellowed, it's not hard-core any more.
The future Trunks arc I liked for the most part with the exception of it's rushed ending.
So I'll have to say it's only half bad in my opinion.

[Acetona]

I think Super is average. It has some aspects that make me facepalm from time to time, sometimes even more than GT (but I consider GT bad, so Super's still better). Oh, and I'm talking about the anime. With the exception of the Hit fight, the manga is so much better and I actually think it would be good if it weren't monthly. Also, I'm completely disregarding both Battle of Gods arc (anime and manga) and Resurrection F arc, since they were made just to stall time, and the movies are far better imo.

Plotwise, what irks me more is:
1. Excessive usage of "nostalgia" fanservice. Too much throwbacks from Z. They can do original stories without recycling, as they proved with Battle of Gods arc.
2. Usage of cliched shounen tropes that the franchise avoided for years. "Nakama power": I don't care for that Genki Dama sword thingy, Trunks doing this out of nowhere doesn't make any sense. I said I would disregard RoF arc but I can't not mention Gohan's motivation for training after that. Protect his loved ones? Seriously? What's this? Bleach?
3. Long drawn out "plot episodes". If those said episodes had content, it would be ok, but they don't. They're dragged out as hell. If everything was fast paced like the battles, it would be better. Drawn out fights like Z are a no go too, Hit vs Goku had too much staredowns, but it's still my favorite one to date.

Production values-wise:
1. Terribad art and animation some episodes, even worse than Uchiyama's and Ebisawa's.
2. Bad soundtrack. While it grew on my, because I watch it weekly for like one and a half year, I can't seem to enjoy it too much. Sure, there are great tracks, like that one that plays when Trunks used Mafuba on Zamasu, but I think it lacks the beauty of orchestrated stuff like Kikuchi or Yamamoto.
3. This one is the worst. The sound effects. And it seems that plague was spread all over the franchise, since Xenoverse 2 uses them. At least Nishimura (?? I don't recall his name ) is doing better now than earlier, but I still miss Arai.

Also, I don't mind the no blood thingy, I just find it weird that the baseball episode had more blood than the entire Zamasu arc lol

[dbgtFO]

I agree with the notion it's 80% trash, but the rest of it is enough to keep me around, which just shows how little quality it needs to have to be a success.
Its pacing is shit, but at least the Trunks arc lasted a bit longer than 14 episodes and maybe the new arc will go way beyond the 20 or so episodes of its predecessor.
I agree with Doctor, that it managed to improve upon Res [F], which shows that Toriyama's outlines shouldn't be followed without fail, but that even his concepts can be improved upon, which he himself admits.

It's also why I would like to have all his outlines publicly available after the arcs are over, like they curiously did with his Res [F] outline. It's nice to have documentation on who did what and where the mediums differ to give the proper credit and appreciate how much or how little they have to go on.
Most of all I dislike the fact, that people are going to say it's exactly the same as Z, when that's a blatant lie. Things have changed since the 80's and 90's. Not only is there unfathomably a decrease in blood and gore, but the show is also far more lighthearted and the tension is down thanks to the fact the lore now has a whole pantheon of Gods many times stronger than Goku and co. and almost all of their villains apart from arguably Zamasu, who might have ended up the most powerful apart from Zeno.

Goku relying on the Gods to take down the only 2 out and out villains the show has had so far just shows how easy they have it now.
I really would want the series to go full on comedy with no repercussions and all the villains presented as jokes, rather than this parody, that almost does the same thing anyways, but tries to pretend it doesn't at times. Then I wouldn't need to care.

[TheMikado]

I'm curious to see if anyone else finds this series to be terrible and let me clarify that I'm speaking only on the anime, as I find the manga to have taken a different course when it comes to most areas of my disliking such as the anime never using the original Super Saiyan God form after the BOG arc.

I dislike the series mainly for the pacing being all over the place, it's underuse of any characters beyond Goku, Vegeta and maybe Bulma and Future Trunks for his arc, the lack of organic storytelling and really only continue to watch it since I have a long time investment in the franchise.

It's also worth noting that I'm not above praising certain aspects, which are mainly limited to the filler episodes such as the baseball one, and I'm also not critique things not being explained since this was common in the original manga.

I actually feel exactly the way you do, even down to enjoying the manga. Further GT ranks far better than Super for me personally for the reasons you list of disliking Super. For me Super feels like a school created by a committee of executives while GT by comparison feels like something really invested in making something unique and "cool" would put together as if they put some actual effort into making the product and story.

[dbs fanboy]

I'm started to get tired lol, like we have a topic about top 3 gripes about super then other about how super's writing should not be excused (when nobody is doing that), then other titled "things like this show us that super will never be like Z" then other about "your issues with super?" And before that one we got more and more topics about the exact same thing .

I'm literally reading the same complaints that i've read before over and over again, to the point that i don't even take this seriously cause i'm tired.

[dbs fanboy]

Nah forget what i wrote before it was a dumb stupid little rant and sorry for double posting but i can't delete or edit what i wrote on my phone.

[Yomi]

I don't find it awful personally. When there is a big moment, or the drama is at an absolute peak, it's usually pretty great.
as long as I get one adrenaline pumping scene every season. I don't really care about the petty little things like Piccolo not
getting enough screen-time or Goten not being trained.

I've seen few shows this season, but from the ones I've seen or taken a look at (Ajin, Flip Flappers, Pokémon Sun & Moon, Drifters and Keijo), they're incomparably worse than DBS. It's embarrassing the amount of absolute dogshit the industry is putting out these days.

I think that's an even bigger issue. The anime industry has been trying to recycle the same tropes for years now.
Not to mention that uninspired art style that has plagued seasonal anime for the past 14 years.

[perucho1990]

I think Super is average. It has some aspects that make me facepalm from time to time, sometimes even more than GT (but I consider GT bad, so Super's still better). Oh, and I'm talking about the anime. With the exception of the Hit fight, the manga is so much better and I actually think it would be good if it weren't monthly. Also, I'm completely disregarding both Battle of Gods arc (anime and manga) and Resurrection F arc, since they were made just to stall time, and the movies are far better imo.

Plotwise, what irks me more is:
1. Excessive usage of "nostalgia" fanservice. Too much throwbacks from Z. They can do original stories without recycling, as they proved with Battle of Gods arc.
2. Usage of cliched shounen tropes that the franchise avoided for years. "Nakama power": I don't care for that Genki Dama sword thingy, Trunks doing this out of nowhere doesn't make any sense. I said I would disregard RoF arc but I can't not mention Gohan's motivation for training after that. Protect his loved ones? Seriously? What's this? Bleach?
3. Long drawn out "plot episodes". If those said episodes had content, it would be ok, but they don't. They're dragged out as hell. If everything was fast paced like the battles, it would be better. Drawn out fights like Z are a no go too, Hit vs Goku had too much staredowns, but it's still my favorite one to date.

Production values-wise:
1. Terribad art and animation some episodes, even worse than Uchiyama's and Ebisawa's.
2. Bad soundtrack. While it grew on my, because I watch it weekly for like one and a half year, I can't seem to enjoy it too much. Sure, there are great tracks, like that one that plays when Trunks used Mafuba on Zamasu, but I think it lacks the beauty of orchestrated stuff like Kikuchi or Yamamoto.
3. This one is the worst. The sound effects. And it seems that plague was spread all over the franchise, since Xenoverse 2 uses them. At least Nishimura (?? I don't recall his name ) is doing better now than earlier, but I still miss Arai.

Also, I don't mind the no blood thingy, I just find it weird that the baseball episode had more blood than the entire Zamasu arc lol

100% disagree with this, DBZ was never Hunter x Hunter or JJBA in that aspect, DB was always filled with Cliches and Togashi and Hirohiko was the men that led certain mangakas to void the typical Shounen cliches.

If u want a series that doesnt have much Shounen cliches, then check Boku no Hero Academia, One Punch Man, Mob Psycho 100.

Back on topic, Super was awful...2 years ago with the Movie retellings.

2016 has been overall good due to the Trunks Arc, it was overall very entertaining despite the lack of explanation of certain scenes, Shinchiro Miki made most of the scenes better than expected, proving why he is one of the best seiyuus in the industry today.

[TheMikado]

^ think you are missing the point. Dragonball in the minds of many westerners at the time INVENTED those cliches and tropes. You would be hard pressed to have even modern anime fans who could name franchises that did the same themes and tropes on manga/anime prior to the Dragonball franchise.

[dbs fanboy]

Would you mind sharing what you enjoyed more about the arc then the movie?

It's still terrible, don't get me wrong, but it fixes so much of the film's faults and actually seems to try to improve on the writing that I can't fault it for the effort.

It fixes the plot hole about the number of wishes Shenron can grant. It cuts out the completely idiotic "I'll achieve a battle power of 1.3 million!" line. It makes Goku turn back to his base form before he gets shot by Sorbet, making the scene, which was the main complaint from even the people who liked the movie, a lot more believable as a result.

I felt that the arc actually bothered to respect Freeza's character, too. Not only is he much more threatening and ruthless in the Super version, but he actually makes his appearance impactful by torturing Gohan and killing off Piccolo. You say the scenes were useless, I disagree, they add to Freeza's threat, no? Piccolo's death was very poorly executed, I agree, but I feel like Freeza torturing Gohan was phenomenal and it was, and is, one of the best scenes in DBS as a whole. Then there's the whole PTSD thing and the fact that he kept teasing Kuririn throughout the battle. Ah, and Freeza actually tried to play dirty and attack not only Goku's friends but Goku himself when he had his eyes closed. Freeza's character in general just had much more personality during the first two thirds of the arc than he did in the movie, where he basically stood around and did nothing and the latter third is him getting humiliated and being treated as a joke by everyone. And also the arc doesn't insult Freeza, and the audience's, intelligence by making Freeza stupidly believe that Vegeta still had some loyalty left and offer him the killing blow on Goku. I mean, not only is that completely out-of-character for Freeza to do, but makes him look like a colossal idiot. The arc got rid of that stupid litle sub-plot as early as possible (with a pretty cool scene of Vegeta mocking Freeza, I may add) and when Freeza is trying to kill Goku, it's Vegeta that intervenes, making it so that NONE of the parties involved looks like an idiot.

The movie's plot was barebones. It introduced two new transformations and it didn't show or hint at how the characters achieved them. At least the arc made an effort, not a very good one, but one nonetheless. Goku's character is improved too. In the movie he was all buddy-buddy with Freeza throughout the entire fight, for some reason. In the arc, he's furious that Freeza killed Piccolo. The arc is still limited by the fact that Goku did offer to let Freeza go in the original version, so they had to do that as well, but they did try to make an effort of keeping Goku in-character, which the film absolutely did not do.

The writing is just much better. If I were to rewatch the arc again, I could find plenty of little things that are improvements over the film, most of the scenes of the Super counterpart are improvements. The animation quality didn't bother me because the film's fight choreography was terrible and a snoozefest, I even think some cuts of the Golden Freeza vs Goku fight in Super are even better than in the movie. I thought the movie was a shameless cashgrab and the biggest insult this franchise has ever seen since Evolution; the arc tries to improve on it but is ultimately let down by playing it too close to the original script.[/quote/]
I still hate the arc but your post kinda allowed me to see certain things that i couldn't notice before when i was blinded by my rage.

[Yomi]

100% disagree with this, DBZ was never Hunter x Hunter or JJBA in that aspect, DB was always filled with Cliches and Togashi and Hirohiko was the men that led certain mangakas to void the typical Shounen cliches.

If u want a series that doesnt have much Shounen cliches, then check Boku no Hero Academia, One Punch Man, Mob Psycho 100.

DBZ invented the "cliches" so it isn't really at fault. As for these other shows, like HxH specifically, what has it done differently?
What makes it so ground breaking? Kite dies and Gon gets an ass-pull powerup. People love to give so much credence to these shows,
but if it was animated like Dragon Ball, would anyone really like it? Would all these qualities shine? Where was the bandwagon for HxH
back in 1999 when it was animated poorly? Wouldn't all of its groundbreaking writing and interesting concepts be able to shine on its own?

Can One Punch Man survive without Madhouse? What would the draw be to these shows if they didn't have seasonal budgets?
I'm not saying they're bad, I just don't find them as amazing and well written as everyone seems to think they are. It's just
eye candy, and people make their justifications for it after the fact.

I see the same thing happening in the American animation fandom, there are elites who hate the same 10 shows but they're
madly in love with Steven Universe, and My Little Pony, and Adventure Time, with little to no contention.

[SSJ Human]

I don't find it awful personally. When there is a big moment, or the drama is at an absolute peak, it's usually pretty great.
as long as I get one adrenaline pumping scene every season. I don't really care about the petty little things like Piccolo not
getting enough screen-time or Goten not being trained.

I've seen few shows this season, but from the ones I've seen or taken a look at (Ajin, Flip Flappers, Pokémon Sun & Moon, Drifters and Keijo), they're incomparably worse than DBS. It's embarrassing the amount of absolute dogshit the industry is putting out these days.

I think that's an even bigger issue. The anime industry has been trying to recycle the same tropes for years now.
Not to mention that uninspired art style that has plagued seasonal anime for the past 14 years.

I don't think it's petty to complain that a major character in the previous series is reduced to cameos in its sequel, which was a complaint many have of GT (Goku Time as some would call it).

I feel as if the only reason any bother to defend Super more than GT is that this is new and they're holding out hope that it'll get better with this arc and the rest and since it's new.

[Hellspawn28]

100% disagree with this, DBZ was never Hunter x Hunter or JJBA in that aspect, DB was always filled with Cliches and Togashi and Hirohiko was the men that led certain mangakas to void the typical Shounen cliches.

If u want a series that doesnt have much Shounen cliches, then check Boku no Hero Academia, One Punch Man, Mob Psycho 100.

I felt like My Hero Academia did have the typical Shounen cliches when I watch the show last summer. The main character is a wimpy kid that wishes to become stronger and you have the typical rival ant-hero character that hates the main character being stronger then him. The show was good, but I didn't think the show was great as people made it out to be.

Anyways, I don't think Super is awful at all. The show had a rocky start, but I don't think anyone was expecting the re-tellings of the last two movies to be good. Things got better when Champa show up. The Future Trunks saga was great expect for Trunks being a walking Dues Ex.

[SSJ Human]

The Future Trunks saga was great expect for Trunks being a walking Dues Ex.

And there being three versions of the same character as a villain, Future Mai doing virtually nothing to help the story despite showing up in all the promotional material, the Mafuba and Vegito being brought back for nothing, them even fighting off Black and Zamasu since it amounted to nothing but furthering Zamasu's plan to destroy humanity, allowing the villain to win even though he was meant to lose and giving us the moral that you might as well give up before you even try with Future Trunks' actions over the arc doing nothing to better his situation.

[FortuneSSJ]

And there being three versions of the same character as a villain.

Different versions of the same character is what makes Zamasu's character great as a whole.

Future Mai doing virtually nothing to help the story despite showing up in all the promotional material.

She did what she could. She led the Resistance army that had been fighting Black, rescued Goku/FT Trunks/Vegeta with Yajirobe's help the first time they fought Black/Zamasu in the Future, and helped FT Trunks with the Mafuba. She couldn't do much more, unless she beat Merged Zamasu... But wouldn't that make the power level tards have a bigger mental breakdown?!

the Mafuba and Vegito being brought back for nothing.

Still worthy to mention Mafuba exists, because it shows plot continuation and it's a good way to deal with a Immortal Villain.
The reason Vegetto appeared is the same that FT Trunks and an Evil Goku appeared. Fans asked for it. And Vegetto still weakened Merged Zamasu for SSI FT Trunks to beat him with the help of everyone, including Goku and Vegeta. No, FT Trunks is not stronger than SSB Vegeto like some butthurt people have been saying since then, because Vegetto is not a permanent fusion like they always thought, even though they defused the first time in DBZ.

People also have been asking for another character to beat the main villain besides Goku. Even though the only characters Goku beat in Super 70+ episodes without any help was the memorable Botamo and Present Zamasu. Oh yeah, you can count his spar with FT Trunks too if you want. I'm really tired of Goku always winning...

them even fighting off Black and Zamasu since it amounted to nothing but furthering Zamasu's plan to destroy humanity, allowing the villain to win even though he was meant to lose and giving us the moral that you might as well give up before you even try with Future Trunks' actions over the arc doing nothing to better his situation.

Since when he was meant to?! Seems like you're just used to cliche endings. This time they decide to give us something more mature.
Bardock also had a sad end in his TV Special and that doesn't mean he should just have accepted his fate and do nothing, because he already knew everyone would be killed by Freeza.