Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Merged Zamasu » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:51 pm

Jinzoningen MULE wrote:From what I gather, your objection to the designs seems to amount to "He's this super cool guy and I don't like how he wasn't treated with total reverence in every single aspect!" However, that seems to be a consistent factor in this gimmick you do, so I'll forgive it. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

The actual reason he looked how he did was to give a visual metaphor of his fall from grace, from godhood, along with his inner conflict. From an in-universe perspective, it's a visual manifestation of his mixing of incompatible powers. That's it, it's nothing too ridiculous or complex.
My objection with how Merged Zamasu was treated are the following:

- He appeared in a laughable and pathetic number of Episodes;
- He was defeated twice and back-to-back by Trunks, Vegeta and then, Goku. When you lose so many fights back-to-back, you are hardly a threat anymore;
- He lost his sanity because of a set back, when Black and Future Zamasu had endured multiple defeats and never lost their composure;
- He thought "Bigger = Stronger". Zamasu caused his own downfall. By bulking up, he couldn't catch up with Trunks. Immensely poweful attacks are useless if you can't even reach your opponent because you are too slow;
- He had magnificient and unique techniques that appeared in only ONE episode;
- He couldn't realize Vegito was fooling him and was stabbed as a result;
- He was thinking about tea while Trunks was charging up the Genkidama. Like, atleast put some effort in trying to stop an attack that will thwart your plans and destroy you;
- He was defeated by Trunks, with the aid of a bunch of injured Humans, and two injured Base Form Sayans.

Indeed most people (even Fanboys) believe that Episode 65-66-67 were extremely rushed, and their writing was abysmal. If the fight weren't THAT good, those 3 Episodes would certainly have a spot in the worst in the entire Dragon Ball franchise. They ruined the Future Trunks' Arc for many, the rushed character that was Merged Zamasu is a reason of it.

And yes, i know, i am biased, i am on other forums as well and you are not the first to tell me. "Villains" and "Heroes" are point of views. If Frieza were the main character, he'd be the protagonist and Goku the villain. "Villain" doesn't equal "evil", and Zamasu's intentions were hardly wrong when the Universe had been ruined multiple times by the foolishness of mortals, and when the Gods OBVIOUSLY don't take seriously their duties. The whole Universe 6 is going to hell because of Frost and his evil empire, and what does Champa do? He plays baseball.
Last edited by Merged Zamasu on Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Lord Frieza » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:53 pm

A gods role is not just to judge. There are many different types of gods with different roles, in the kaioshins case they are gods of creation, maintaining and balance. They are guardians not judges, the only one who can judge mortals for their deeds are mortals themselves and their final judge is King Enma whole will give them a fitting punishment for their end.

I actually agreed with young Zamasu, the kaioshin should take a more active role in the universe. With their power they could do so much good without threatening the natural balance of the universe yet they just site up in their metaphorical towers looking down on creation, only coming down from on high when threats like Buu show up. But they also had a point to

What Zamasu could not understand is that the universe is not black and white but shades of gray. Life must be allowed to develop on its own and balance is needed. If you never make mistakes or suffer hardships you will never grow and pure good without evil stagnates and decays. Without Frieza and Vegeta, Goku would likely have never become the great hero he is, just the hero of earth. Like wise it was Goku's and Trunks's actions that led to Zamasu's corruption, no matter how good their intentions were. Light and Darkness keeping the other in check. Zamasu's vision would have lead to the stagnation and decay of the dragon ball multiverse and in time he would have likely created mortal beings of his own just because he would have become bored of the endless nothing of his existence had he won.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by PsionicWarrior » Thu Jan 05, 2017 7:56 pm

Merged Zamasu wrote:Villaiins doesn't equal evil, and Zamasu's intentions were hardly wrong when the Universe had been ruined multiple times by the foolishness of mortals.
How was Zamasu's plan called again? Oh yeah, the ZERO MORTALS plan, murdering every one is hardly anything wrong mate, and let's kill all other gods too because they are evil by letting humans live. :P

You're not biased, you're converted. :mrgreen:

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Lord Beerus » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:29 pm

I don't think Zamasu's character was butchered. Hell, I think that he's not only the best written villain in all of Dragon Ball, but the best written overall character in all of Dragon Ball. And I've gone into great detail about why I have that stance in the past:
[spoiler]People often complain that Zamasu had no real backstory, but I disagree with that. While he was shown to be a Kaioshin, Zamasu cared greatly enough for the development and prosperity of the universe, that Zamasu often questioned the worth of mortals and didn't believe in their ability to handle conflict as they were prone to commence war in a repeated cycle. And given the events that transpired in the main story, he has a very valid point. The Kaioshin of Universe 7 stood by and watched Freeza terrorise most of the galaxy for God knows how long before Goku and Future Trunks took care of him. It's made even worse by the fact the Kaioshin were strong enough to defeat Freeza with one blow, but they still stood by and did nothing. Then you take into consideration that the events of the Android/Cell arc and the Majin Boo arc happened on purely through the arrogance and selfishness of the main cast. He also did not agree with how the Kaioshin would not be more directly involved in mortals' actions like the Gods of Destruction. Even in the manga, his scoffs at the idea that mortals can be trusted to handle important matters, let alone rival the might of gods.

The moment with him him and Gowasu travelling to the Babarians world was huge turning point in his character. Because if he ever needed more fuel to add to his argument of how dangerous and unruly mortals could be, that was it. Zamasu claimed that they should destroy the planet because they will never learn to be civilised, to which Gowasu is shocked by this response and in an attempt to prove him wrong, Gowasu and Zamasu travel 1000 years to the future, only to find out that the civilisation has not advanced from the small culture it originally was, and the race as whole still remained hostile, angry and aggressive race, as the same two of the Babarians are seen fighting. And just to add the cherry on top, one of the Babarians tries to attack Zamasu and Gowasu at first glance.

Meeting Goku was where his character officially went off the deep end. After meeting Goku however and losing to him quickly in a sparring match, his views radically changed and his distrustful nature towards mortals only grew. Annoyed at Goku's carefree attitude and lack of respect, his distaste for the gods not quelling the dangerous nature of mortals evolved to a radicalism-level. Shocked at how a mortal like Goku could gain a power rivalling gods, let alone even obtaining such power, and so recklessly challenge a God and defeat him easily, Zamasu came to sternly believe that mortal life by nature is an evil.

Goku Black and Future Zamasu is the embodiment of Zamasu basically giving into the his dark side and goes through with his plan to be a more active Kaioshin and try set right what he thinks has been done wrong by other Kiaoshin standing back and letting mortal create all kinds of havoc. He is extremely sadistic, as well as savage in battle and also relishes the opportunity to test his new power or abilities, but also shown to be very pragmatic is his way of achieving his Zero Mortals Plan. And never wastes an opportunity to display his superiority complex and his plan to create a utopia by eliminating all mortals.

Merged Zamasu is basically the accumulation of all the arrogance and self-entitlement of Goku Black and Future Zamasu. He literally sees himself as the embodiment of justice and having delusions of grandeur. His belief that he is truly this supreme God of justice that will create an new utopia for the universe even drive him to tears, as his feeling of responsibility to set everything right that he thinks is wrong overwhelms him emotionally. Of course, once Vegetto and later Future Trunks prove to be too much of a match for him, Merged Zamasu is reduced to nothing more the equivalent of a deranged madman swinging around a axe and butcher's knife at the same time. Constantly screaming and attacking with more savagery and fury than before and grinning like a psychopath, while making outrageous declarations of Godhood. It was at that point that Zamasu's descent into darkness had gone full circle, as he had officially become just as destructive, violent, aggresive and unhinged as the mortals he vilified and believed the universe would be better without. Of course, the dramatic irony of the situation never became apparent to him, as Zamasu still saw himself as the saviour the universe needed and wanted. Even in his death, his immortal soul and conscious spread across the world, the universe and even throughout timelines. Showing that even with no physically body to carry out his deeds, his spiritual body still feels compelled to become one with order and justice. If there's one thing you can't deny Zamasu had, it was dedication to his cause.

I think some people don't have a proper grasp of Zamasu's goals or motives, because Zamasu is actually a very complicated character. At the start, you see a young, bashful and down-to-earth Kaioshin who ultimately calls a spade a spade and knows of just how dangerous mortals can be and openly questions the system that he is a part of. He feels, given the role he has, that he doesn't have the true freedom of doing enough to curb the continuing cycle of violence that is tarnishing the imagine of the Universe he is meant to protect and look over. Zamasu was clearing getting tired of being a bystander and actually wanted to be an active role as a Kaioshin and instead of just watching mayhem spontaneously unfold before him, and that is what makes his fall from grace all the more raw and amazing to watch. He had good intentions for the sake of his universe but the fashion of which he went about them became more extreme with how events would later unfold with him visiting the Babarians planet and encountering Goku. It's what makes him quite an awesome villain, and even to a degree, quite a tragic character.

In short, Zamasu is a fantastically written villain, and has many layers to him and which make him, in my humble opinion, the best written character the franchise has ever produced.[/spoiler]

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Merged Zamasu » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:31 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Merged Zamasu wrote:Villaiins doesn't equal evil, and Zamasu's intentions were hardly wrong when the Universe had been ruined multiple times by the foolishness of mortals.
How was Zamasu's plan called again? Oh yeah, the ZERO MORTALS plan, murdering every one is hardly anything wrong mate, and let's kill all other gods too because they are evil by letting humans live. :P

You're not biased, you're converted. :mrgreen:

Zamasu's Zero-mortals Plan was not limited to "killing all mortals". As Zamasu stated multiple times, killing Mortals was but the first step of his magnificient project. After that, Zamasu planned to completely cleanse the Universe, and thus create a perfect world, beautiful and free from mortals' stupidity. Since Zamasu displayed the ability to create sentient life (His "Wall of Light" technique), Zamasu would have probably tried to create his own Gods. Afterall, had he defeated the Z Fighers, he would have had an entire Universe at his disposal, a Universe that needed to be inhabited. Zamasu would have probably created sentient life, and made sure that their powers would be kept in-check, and that they would somehow be bound to his will. A God has to take terrible decisions sometimes. With great power, comes great responsibility. Point still stands: Zeno's Universe IS flawed. How many planets have been destroyed by scum the likes of Frost, Frieza, Vegeta and Buu? And, most importantly, what were the Gods of Destruction doing? Blame Zamasu for being brash, but he's hard to blame, because Beerus and Champa, Gods of Destruction, are two incompetents who completely disregard their duties and affiliations to the Universe. See? Look how rushed Zamasu was, we don't even know what he planned to do once he purged the Universe of mortals.

Perhaps Zamasu's Universe would have been a heaven, a beautiful place of glory, joy and peace, where Zamasu watches over his people and makes sure the errors of the past are not repeated. Then, i am sure we would all be calling Zamasu a "Good guy", who deleted a flawed Universe and built a magnificient world upon its remains.

I also think Zamasu is one of the best written characters in Dragon Ball, otherwise i wouldn't have this name and his green face as avatar. I just think they turned Merged Zamasu into a joke towards the end of the Arc. That is not the character's fault, but more the producers' fault, who rushed the Arc. There is a middle way between an Arc of 70 episodes and an Arc of 20 Episodes.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Freeza9000 » Thu Jan 05, 2017 8:56 pm

SaiyanZ wrote:
Freeza9000 wrote:
SaiyanZ wrote:This is usually an indicator for bad villains to me, so many times have I seen someone get power and then degenerate into some goo like liquid
Since when has repetition been a bad thing? As a matter of fact, nothing's that original anymore.
I'm not complaining about the repetition, I'm noting the fact that every villain I've seen that has "melted" is not very good imo.
I personally don't mind it, especially under the context of Zamasu, because it really accentuates on the irony on how Zamasu is not this beautiful and noble God he claims himself to be and is truly no different from the violent mortals he hates. Compare Zamasu's mutated appearance to that of the Barbarian he (presumably) first killed with his hands. He probably looks even worse. I also like how Zamasu went from this prodigious fighter to an unstable and mentally challenged maniac whose anger got the best of him to the point where he's too slow.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Freeza9000 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:41 am

Image

I did like this shit of Deformed Zamasu though!

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by PsionicWarrior » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:16 pm

Merged Zamasu wrote:
I perfectly get you mate but while Zamasu's ideals may be noble, the means he uses definitely aren't lol
Which is why I respectfully disagree with your stance about Zamasu being wise, when his first step in order to achieve his ideals is to eradicate all life in existence lol
There is a middle way between an Arc of 70 episodes and an Arc of 20 Episodes.
I really hope they get that for the next big arc lol

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Ki Breaker » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:28 pm

Freeza9000 wrote:Image

I did like this shit of Deformed Zamasu though!
Link the image correctly mate :thumbup:
Image
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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Nano » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:10 pm

Dbzfan94 wrote:Bro, I think you might just be a tad too obsessed with Zamasu.
Fo real!
I love Dragon Ball so much that I'm constantly complaining about how horrible Super is.

Black Goku / Future Trunks saga... was/is garbage.

Top 5 Favorite DBS Characters = Beerus, Whis, still waiting on the last 3 lol...

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Duo » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:40 pm

I have nowhere near the same passion on the subject, but I don't think it can be denied that there were some big missed opportunities with Zamasu at the end. It's really hard not to pick a lot of these aspects apart right now, given how fresh it all is. I'm looking forward to the manga version of this (even if it is certainly going to be pretty short in and of itself there, too...)

Deformed Zamasu was appropriate for the situation, but it did happen pretty soon after his fusion. Compared to other major villains "ultimate forms", this one was sold very short. A few minor changes to the story would have helped, but there's nothing that can be done for the anime now.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Mnich » Fri Jan 06, 2017 4:46 pm

"Why butcher Zamasu's character".

I just can't wait to butcher and kick his ass over, over and over again in Xenoverse 2 for what he did to the kids and other survivors. That's why.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Merged Zamasu » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:01 pm

Ki Breaker wrote:
Freeza9000 wrote:Image

I did like this shit of Deformed Zamasu though!
Link the image correctly mate :thumbup:
Image
Ah, Zamasu. You were such a beautiful and noble God. May you finally rest in peace. I am so sorry for you Zamasu. Your ideals were 100% correct. You had the guts to actually fight to preserve the Universe. It's a shame you were surrounded by cowards, too frightened to take matters in their own hands like you did.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Freeza9000 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:09 pm

Merged Zamasu wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote:
Freeza9000 wrote:Image

I did like this shit of Deformed Zamasu though!
Link the image correctly mate :thumbup:
Image
Ah, Zamasu. You were such a beautiful and noble God. May you finally rest in peace. I am so sorry for you Zamasu. Your ideals were 100% correct. You had the guts to actually fight to preserve the Universe. It's a shame you were surrounded by cowards, too frightened to take matters in their own hands like you did.
Yeah, he sure was right for killing all those children and survivors at the end of the arc. No offense, but your obsession with this character is getting a bit too far.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Merged Zamasu » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:15 pm

Freeza9000 wrote:
Merged Zamasu wrote:
Ki Breaker wrote: Link the image correctly mate :thumbup:
Image
Ah, Zamasu. You were such a beautiful and noble God. May you finally rest in peace. I am so sorry for you Zamasu. Your ideals were 100% correct. You had the guts to actually fight to preserve the Universe. It's a shame you were surrounded by cowards, too frightened to take matters in their own hands like you did.
Yeah, he sure was right for killing all those children and survivors at the end of the arc. No offense, but your obsession with this character is getting a bit too far.
I am talking about his ideals, not about his approach to said ideals. Zamasu was indeed correct in believeing that the Unvierse was flawed. Gowasu and co., those spineless cowards, used the "We must create, not destroy" excuse as a shield. Gowasu told Zamasu that it was Beerus' duty to destroy, yet Beerus didn't destroy for the well-being of the Universe, but for his own agenda. Beerus, basically, went rogue. When did he ever uphold the Universe's laws? Is the Universe's laws to blow up a planet just because the God of Destruction doesn't like said planet's food? Think of Zeno's Universe as a flawed society, where mortals are not kept in-check and cause violence throughout the world, and where the Gods just do whatever they want, without following the Universe' laws and justice. It is a flawed system, that has to be changed somehow. Zamasu, at the end of the day, wanted a perfect Universe, a peaceful Universe. A most noble intention. Just because Beerus and Gowasu are on the Protagonist's side, doesn't mean they are good individuals. Beerus abuses his power to destroy whatever planet he likes, without giving any thought to what the Universe's justice actually demands. Gowasu is a coward, who uses petty excuses to justifi mortals the likes of Frieza. I would much prefer to have as Omni-king Zamasu, who actually understands and knows how to make an utopian world, rather than Zeno, a guy with the IQ of a 4-years-old at best.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Mazingerdestro » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:24 pm

Merged Zamasu wrote:There was no reason to turn Merged Zamasu, a shining and magnifcient, immortal and most powerful God, into a green/purple clone of Broly. Like, you could have shown he had become a lunatic without completely ruining his appearance and the elegance and sheer might that made him unique. Just look at him:

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/dra ... 1106190830

He didn't deserve the treatement he received in Episode 66. Any good reason they chose to throw out of the window his cool and magestic appearance to turn him into yet another Broly? Perhaps, one day, this character will come back, because his character was rushed as hell. Merged Zamasu appeared for only 3 episodes. I guess Goku, Trunks and Vegeta OBVIOUSLY needed more spotlight than a character who already didn't have a very developed backstory and had endless potential. The ending of Future Trunks' Arc would have been a lot more epic and cooler if Merged Zamasu had not changed after Episode 65.
That's the point of the series. His ideas and beliefs were so twisted that they affected his appearance.
When I first show Zamasu I understood that he will lose once they break his spirit. Once he is out of his illusion that he created in his mind, his body would have crippled.
It's like watching a guy going from normal to a killer. He starts sweating, his eyes get wider and he smiles a lot or talks to himself.
The point of Hulkmasu was to show "how much has a prodigy fallen due to his mistaken thinking".
You can be smart, talented, and handsome but you should never act or think without considering what is right and what is wrong AND never be absolute in your way of thinking.
Zamasu never stopped and "digested" his master's ideas and teachings.
People say trust yourself but in Zamasu's case that was his worse mistake. He put too much faith to his logic and blocked everything else....his master and friend, his fellow Kais etc.
Inside he was a broken man and due to his fusion, the instability in his mind and soul was also showing on his body.
.
.
.
.
All these and also showing visually to younger fans that his wrong mentality had turned him to a monster. In general I have seen that Super is a quite kid friendly show that sometimes sends positive messages/lessons to kids. Be good, eat your food, make friends because they are important, train/study hard etc.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Freeza9000 » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:32 pm

Merged Zamasu wrote:I am talking about his ideals, not about his approach to said ideals. Zamasu was indeed correct in believeing that the Unvierse was flawed. Gowasu and co., those spineless cowards, used the "We must create, not destroy" excuse as a shield. Gowasu told Zamasu that it was Beerus' duty to destroy, yet Beerus didn't destroy for the well-being of the Universe, but for his own agenda. Beerus, basically, went rogue. When did he ever uphold the Universe's laws? Is the Universe's laws to blow up a planet just because the God of Destruction doesn't like said planet's food? Think of Zeno's Universe as a flawed society, where mortals are not kept in-check and cause violence throughout the world, and where the Gods just do whatever they want, without following the Universe' laws and justice. It is a flawed system, that has to be changed somehow. Zamasu, at the end of the day, wanted a perfect Universe, a peaceful Universe. A most noble intention. Just because Beerus and Gowasu are on the Protagonist's side, doesn't mean they are good individuals. Beerus abuses his power to destroy whatever planet he likes, without giving any thought to what the Universe's justice actually demands. Gowasu is a coward, who uses petty excuses to justifi mortals the likes of Frieza. I would much prefer to have as Omni-king Zamasu, who actually understands and knows how to make an utopian world, rather than Zeno, a guy with the IQ of a 4-years-old at best.
While it is true that the gods can be rather incompetent shitbags (which is something that the series has proven overtime really) and the fact that there are mortals that cause chaos and crime, Zamasu at the same time killed the mortals that aren't really "barbaric and violent". There's nothing to justify how ruthless he was when he killed Goku's family WITH GOKU'S FACE!!! Thus, making him no different from the very mortals he loathed.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Merged Zamasu » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:39 pm

Freeza9000 wrote:
Merged Zamasu wrote:I am talking about his ideals, not about his approach to said ideals. Zamasu was indeed correct in believeing that the Unvierse was flawed. Gowasu and co., those spineless cowards, used the "We must create, not destroy" excuse as a shield. Gowasu told Zamasu that it was Beerus' duty to destroy, yet Beerus didn't destroy for the well-being of the Universe, but for his own agenda. Beerus, basically, went rogue. When did he ever uphold the Universe's laws? Is the Universe's laws to blow up a planet just because the God of Destruction doesn't like said planet's food? Think of Zeno's Universe as a flawed society, where mortals are not kept in-check and cause violence throughout the world, and where the Gods just do whatever they want, without following the Universe' laws and justice. It is a flawed system, that has to be changed somehow. Zamasu, at the end of the day, wanted a perfect Universe, a peaceful Universe. A most noble intention. Just because Beerus and Gowasu are on the Protagonist's side, doesn't mean they are good individuals. Beerus abuses his power to destroy whatever planet he likes, without giving any thought to what the Universe's justice actually demands. Gowasu is a coward, who uses petty excuses to justifi mortals the likes of Frieza. I would much prefer to have as Omni-king Zamasu, who actually understands and knows how to make an utopian world, rather than Zeno, a guy with the IQ of a 4-years-old at best.
While it is true that the gods can be rather incompetent shitbags (which is something that the series has proven overtime really) and the fact that there are mortals that cause chaos and crime, Zamasu at the same time killed the mortals that aren't really "barbaric and violent". There's nothing to justify how ruthless he was when he killed Goku's family WITH GOKU'S FACE!!! Thus, making him no different from the very mortals he loathed.
I indeed agreed with the fact Zamasu was mad. He should have just wiped out all mortals, without making them suffer. But i am sure that a Universe cleansed of mortals' violence and united under a single individual, Zamasu, would not only have a more stable and centralized government, but also, justice. Something that Zeno's Universe clearly lacks. Oh well, it's fun to speculate how it would have ended had Zamasu won.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by SSJ Human » Fri Jan 06, 2017 7:59 pm

It was probably just an undoing of his whole smart, arrogant shtick. I'd have preferred if we never got Fusion Zamasu for as long as we got him, me believing he'd be better as a villain for a good 10 to 15 episodes with them actually developing a strategy that ends with Trunks beating him on his own and just stuck with Black and Future Zamasu.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by PsionicWarrior » Fri Jan 06, 2017 8:58 pm

Merged Zamasu wrote:Gowasu and co., those spineless cowards, used the "We must create, not destroy" excuse as a shield.
Except it's not an excuse but a guideline because, when you're not a complete lunatic, you don't go around killing everyone for your ideals lol
Oh well, it's fun to speculate how it would have ended had Zamasu won.
I'd say we had a glimpse in ep67 lol

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