Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Merged Zamasu » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:01 pm

Kanassa wrote:
Merged Zamasu wrote:
A benevolent God will not make his subjects suffer, he will just end them without them even realizing what happened, so that they do not suffer nor feel any pain.
No, a benevolent God would not so flimsily justify genocide of every life in the universe.
Zamasu hoped that mortals could redeem themselves. He had watched countless planets, and times and times again he was left disappointed by mortals, as they did not learn from their mistakes. Son Goku, a mortal who dared to challenge a God, was the last straw. No matter how friendly or funny Goku is. Mortals must learn their place. The simple idea a mortal could even touch a God is preposterous.

You can blame Zamasu for being a psycopath. Don't blame him for jumping to conclusions, though.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Kanassa » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:13 pm

Merged Zamasu wrote:
Kanassa wrote:
Merged Zamasu wrote:
A benevolent God will not make his subjects suffer, he will just end them without them even realizing what happened, so that they do not suffer nor feel any pain.
No, a benevolent God would not so flimsily justify genocide of every life in the universe.
Zamasu hoped that mortals could redeem themselves. He had watched countless planets, and times and times again he was left disappointed by mortals, as they did not learn from their mistakes.
While there may have been one point where he had hope for mortals, we are never told or allowed to witness that moment. From the first time we see him, he's already spouting his distain for mortals. From what Super shows us, he didn't watch countless planets disappoint him, he saw a few evils and his prejudice twisted those few acts to fit into his narrative of ''ALL MORTALS BAD!''.
Son Goku, a mortal who dared to challenge a God, was the last straw. No matter how friendly or funny Goku is. Mortals must learn their place. The simple idea a mortal could even touch a God is preposterous.
Yeah, in the end Zamasu started his plan to kill all life that exists aside from himself, not for justice, not because of some threat but because his pride was hurt. ANd as the story goes on, it seems less that he turly thinks he's a divine savour, and more that he's trying to avoid admitting that he's only trying to raise his own ego (So, in that aspect, he's a God).
You can blame Zamasu for being a psycopath. Don't blame him for jumping to conclusions, though.
I blame him, though I also partly blame Gowasu (As does Gowasu himself). He should of recognised just how far gone Zamasu was and put greater effort into saving him from the twisted path he tread on.

Also, you say a benevolent god wouldn't let Mortals suffer, just kill them instantly; yet Zamasu takes great pleasure in doing just that.
When Super apparently shoves Goku down our throats:

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Merged Zamasu » Sat Jan 07, 2017 4:41 pm

I never said Zamasu was a benevolent God, in fact i aknowledged multiple times he was beyond redemption. But i do find his ideals and goals very noble, and i agree with his theory that the Universe is definitely flawed, and mortals need to learn their place. Mind you, i agree with his ideals, not with his methods. Had i been Zamasu, i would have just wiped out all mortals, there was no reason to toy and torture them. That brought his downfall, as he let Goku escape multiple times, and thus gave him the chance to use the Omni-king Button.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Miracles » Sat Jan 07, 2017 6:51 pm

Merged Zamasu wrote:
Miracles wrote:Mortal body fused with immortal caused the abnormality in body structure. Zamasu's backstory/character was well developed. We knew where he came from, what his views are, his purposes and plans to execute such purposes. It took combined efforts of power, Vegetto, Spirit Bomb and Zeno to kill him. It was well done.
Zamasu's character was well-written indeed, as we saw his descent into madness, and his rise as a God. But his backstory was not explored in the slightest. Again, giving us a bunch of irrelevant information like "he is a Shinjin from Kaishin" or "He is a genius and a prodigy even amongst the Gods" is not an explored backstory, it's just a bunch of info to make the character look slightly more interesting. We got Black's backstory, a former Supreme Kai who wished for Goku's body. But we sure didn't get Zamasu himself's backstory. Why was he so obsessed with justice? Why did he hate mortals so much? Did he have a reason to have this hatred, while all other Shinjin are peaceful beings? Did perhaps a friend of his get killed by a mortal, which triggered his hate for them?

That is what expanding a character's backstory means. Not to make up 2/3 informations to make that character look less generic, but to delve deeper and deeper into his past, and try to find the reasons for his actions.

As for your last statement, just because it took Zeno to kill him, doesn't mean it was well-executed. It was extremely rushed, as he went from Supreme God to ugly purple monster in 3 minutes. It could have taken even the embodiement of Toryana himself to defeat him, but if it was executed in just 1 episode, it will still come off as rushed and forced. Imagine if the Cell Games had lasted for 3 episodes? In one episode we have Goku vs Cell, in the other we have Gohan vs Cell and in the other we have Cell's defeat. That's exactly what they did with Merged Zamasu. In one Episode we had Merged Zamasu vs Goku/Vegeta/Trunks, in the other we had Merged Zamasu vs Trunks/Vegito, in the other we had Merged Zamasu's death, which didn't even last for the entire episode but for half of it, because god whatever shall we do if we don't see more of those irrelevant and worthless weaklings like Pilaf and his bunch of freaks. The result was just a rushed, forced and clunky ending.
The god of dragon ball world stepping in and ending you after battling all the earth's greatest is not rushed but is suppose to be a quick ending climax after a long battle. Zamasu's backstory was explained as a Kai. Zamasu just got tired of the repeated cycles of foolishness humans did and so he was the one who wanted something done about it. We don't need a "this is why he is like this" emo flashback. Nothing needs to happen to him personally in his past to make them like they are today. It's what humans were doing in every generation that triggered him. The backstory is this; He is just tired of the endless futility of failure. That alone will make any person exact judgment.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Merged Zamasu » Sat Jan 07, 2017 7:28 pm

Miracles wrote:
Merged Zamasu wrote:
Miracles wrote:Mortal body fused with immortal caused the abnormality in body structure. Zamasu's backstory/character was well developed. We knew where he came from, what his views are, his purposes and plans to execute such purposes. It took combined efforts of power, Vegetto, Spirit Bomb and Zeno to kill him. It was well done.
Zamasu's character was well-written indeed, as we saw his descent into madness, and his rise as a God. But his backstory was not explored in the slightest. Again, giving us a bunch of irrelevant information like "he is a Shinjin from Kaishin" or "He is a genius and a prodigy even amongst the Gods" is not an explored backstory, it's just a bunch of info to make the character look slightly more interesting. We got Black's backstory, a former Supreme Kai who wished for Goku's body. But we sure didn't get Zamasu himself's backstory. Why was he so obsessed with justice? Why did he hate mortals so much? Did he have a reason to have this hatred, while all other Shinjin are peaceful beings? Did perhaps a friend of his get killed by a mortal, which triggered his hate for them?

That is what expanding a character's backstory means. Not to make up 2/3 informations to make that character look less generic, but to delve deeper and deeper into his past, and try to find the reasons for his actions.

As for your last statement, just because it took Zeno to kill him, doesn't mean it was well-executed. It was extremely rushed, as he went from Supreme God to ugly purple monster in 3 minutes. It could have taken even the embodiement of Toryana himself to defeat him, but if it was executed in just 1 episode, it will still come off as rushed and forced. Imagine if the Cell Games had lasted for 3 episodes? In one episode we have Goku vs Cell, in the other we have Gohan vs Cell and in the other we have Cell's defeat. That's exactly what they did with Merged Zamasu. In one Episode we had Merged Zamasu vs Goku/Vegeta/Trunks, in the other we had Merged Zamasu vs Trunks/Vegito, in the other we had Merged Zamasu's death, which didn't even last for the entire episode but for half of it, because god whatever shall we do if we don't see more of those irrelevant and worthless weaklings like Pilaf and his bunch of freaks. The result was just a rushed, forced and clunky ending.
The god of dragon ball world stepping in and ending you after battling all the earth's greatest is not rushed but is suppose to be a quick ending climax after a long battle. Zamasu's backstory was explained as a Kai. Zamasu just got tired of the repeated cycles of foolishness humans did and so he was the one who wanted something done about it. We don't need a "this is why he is like this" emo flashback. Nothing needs to happen to him personally in his past to make them like they are today. It's what humans were doing in every generation that triggered him. The backstory is this; He is just tired of the endless futility of failure. That alone will make any person exact judgment.
The fight was compltely and utterly rushed, with Trunks/Vegeta magically being able to overpower Merged Zamasu, who is leagues above them, and with Vegito lasting for 9 minutes and being a complete joke. Also, as s a Zamasu's fan, i would like to learn more about his backstory. What is wrong with that? There's far more to this character than what we've seen on-screen. You could make a whole movie behind Zamasu's sentence "Gowasu-sama, i came to this place because i thought you would teach me about justice!". Why was Zamasu interested in the concept of justice, even more so than the other Shinjin? Who was the one who triggered his desire to observe mortals' behaviour?

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:00 pm

Merged Zamasu wrote:mortals need to learn their place.
So do gods lol

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Merged Zamasu » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:03 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Merged Zamasu wrote:mortals need to learn their place.
So do gods lol
Zamasu knew his place, when he was still an Apprentice. He respected Gowasu-sama, and bowed without hesitation before Beerus and Whis. Goku obviously didn't know his place, as he dared to touch a God (Zamasu) and even make fun of him.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:07 pm

Merged Zamasu wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:
Merged Zamasu wrote:mortals need to learn their place.
So do gods lol
Zamasu knew his place, when he was still an Apprentice. He respected Gowasu-sama, and bowed without hesitation before Beerus and Whis. Goku obviously didn't know his place, as he dared to touch a God (Zamasu) and even make fun of him.
Again I would like to kindly remind you Zamasu ended up killing his master lol
Yeah Goku touched Zamasu, but he also battled with Beerus so it's not like he thought he was doing anything wrong or so lol

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Merged Zamasu » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:16 pm

PsionicWarrior wrote:
Merged Zamasu wrote:
PsionicWarrior wrote:
So do gods lol
Zamasu knew his place, when he was still an Apprentice. He respected Gowasu-sama, and bowed without hesitation before Beerus and Whis. Goku obviously didn't know his place, as he dared to touch a God (Zamasu) and even make fun of him.
Again I would like to kindly remind you Zamasu ended up killing his master lol
Yeah Goku touched Zamasu, but he also battled with Beerus so it's not like he thought he was doing anything wrong or so lol
Indeed, i was talking only about when he was still an Apprentice Kai. Before he completely lost his sanity, Zamasu held great respect for his fellow Gods, and was willing to change his view of mortals. If only he hadn't met Goku.. how different things might have been. Keep in mind that Zamasu was indeed willing to accept Gowasu's advices: he clearly showed regret for what he did to the Babarians. Goku was the one who triggered Zamasu beyond redemption, the one who made him look only the bad side of mortals. But it was obvious that would happen. Zamasu was basically a teen for Shinjin-standards, and teens are easily influenced. Zamasu had probably grown up being taught that the Gods were superior and invincible, and that the mortals were their creations, nothing more. Of course he was shocked and shattered when he realized a mortal had reached the power of a God. It meant his entire existence and all he believed in were lies, and that usually makes very sensitive individuals lose sanity and, in extreme cases, go mad (such as in Zamasu's case).

Also, Beerus was destroying Goku's homeworld, why should Goku had shown respect to him? But Goku was a guest in Universe 10, and he just touched the arms of the future Supreme Kai of Universe 10. Ah, what to expect from a Sayan? They lack all kind of diplomacy and intellect.
Last edited by Merged Zamasu on Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:47 pm

I am not so sure I agree with your speculation Zamasu was so pure from the start. He was an egocentric prodigy, as incredibly superior in the martial arts than any other apprentice and even confirmed Kais (as Goku told him, the Kaio from his universe wouldn't stand a chance against him), what I think is that his encounter with Goku just fired up his true emotions. Instead of being amazed and impressed a mere mortal could compete with let alone beat him, he resented anger and humiliation. He has a way too high opinion of himself which makes him an arrogant prick lol

Basically it's the story of the soul being confronted with their inner demons, and instead of changing his view on humans by meeting one of the most outstanding ones, Goku, he only generated hatred, jealousy and more contempt, which I believe are not the natural characteristics of someone naturally good, like Goku, who immediately congratulates an opponent that can beat him. But Zamasu had trouble hiding his anger, Gowasu is IMO actually the most responsible person in regard as to how Zamasu turned out, almost as if he was in denial, there is indeed many interesting what-if situations we could think of.

Another important point I would like to outline is I don't believe Zamasu lost his sanity so soon, I think he REALLY turned insane after he escaped the Mafuba, before that he was just his true self, not contained within any kind of structure any longer, and more than convinced by what he deemed as justice. I think all the confrontations he had with mortals before he started to take action only added fuel to the fire of something intrinsically evil lol

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Merged Zamasu » Sat Jan 07, 2017 8:57 pm

I am not so sure I agree with your speculation Zamasu was so pure from the start. He was an egocentric prodigy, as incredibly superior in the martial arts than any other apprentice and even confirmed Kais (as Goku told him, the Kaio from his universe wouldn't stand a chance against him), what I think is that his encounter with Goku just fired up his true emotions. Instead of being amazed and impressed a mere mortal could compete with let alone beat him, he resented anger and humiliation. He has a way too high opinion of himself which makes him an arrogant prick lol
Indeed, Zamasu is an arrogant prick, that's what i love about him. But i mean, Vegeta and Present Trunks are also arrogant pricks. Now, we do not know what Zamasu did when he was still on planet Kaishin (talk about "expanded and in-depth backstory"), but i do speculate Zamasu grew up thinking that the Gods were perfect and mortals would just bow before them. People like Zamasu were clearly taught from birth an ideal, and were persuased to believe it for the rest of their life. When Goku defeated him, i imagine that act turned everything Zamasu believed into lies, which probably mentally shattered him. Before meeting Goku, Zamasu was arrogant, yes, but he was willing to realize his mistakes. He clearly needed more training, but he had a pure heart, however clouded by doubt. It's only after losing to Goku that he completely fell into madness.
Basically it's the story of the soul being confronted with their inner demons, and instead of changing his view on humans by meeting one of the most outstanding ones, Goku, he only generated hatred, jealousy and more contempt, which I believe are not the natural characteristics of someone naturally good, like Goku, who immediately congratulates an opponent that can beat him. But Zamasu had trouble hiding his anger, Gowasu is IMO actually the most responsible person in regard as to how Zamasu turned out, almost as if he was in denial, there is indeed many interesting what-if situations we could think of.
Goku never cared about the Sayans. Had he grown up with people around him telling him "Sayans are the strongest, they cannot lose", i am sure Goku too would have thrown a tantrum if an Earthling had defeated him. You also bring up a good point when talking about Gowasu's responasibiliy. Zamasu was his student, it was Gowasu duty as master to teach him the right ways. Gowasu failed, atleast he aknowledges it (towards the end of the arc, he said "This is my sin...Zamasu").
Another important point I would like to outline is I don't believe Zamasu lost his sanity so soon, I think he REALLY turned insane after he escaped the Mafuba, before that he was just his true self, not contained within any kind of structure any longer, and more than convinced by what he deemed as justice. I think all the confrontations he had with mortals before he started to take action only added fuel to the fire of something intrinsically evil lol
Then we are talking about different Zamasus. The Zamasu you refer to is Future Zamasu, which never met Goku, and thus never fell to madness (before meeting Black). Despite being the same individual, Future Zamasu and Present Zamasu/Black have a few, yet very important differences.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:05 pm

Merged Zamasu wrote:Zamasu [...] was willing to realize his mistakes.
I think he was not, what scenes exactly made you think that?
Then we are talking about different Zamasus. The Zamasu you refer to is Future Zamasu, which never met Goku, and thus never fell to madness (before meeting Black). Despite being the same individual, Future Zamasu and Present Zamasu/Black have a few, yet very important differences.
Well spotted I got myself confused a bit there, indeed history has been a bit different for them.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Merged Zamasu » Sun Jan 08, 2017 4:25 am

Merged Zamasu wrote:Zamasu [...] was willing to realize his mistakes.

I think he was not, what scenes exactly made you think that?
He genuinely felt sorry for what happened to the Babarians. After he sliced in half (damn foreshadowing...) that Babarian who was attacking him, Zamasu also felt confused and terrified, as if he had just realized what he had done. Zamasu had a pure heart, as the tea he brew confirmed, but his pure heart was clouded by doubt. It was Gowasu's job to dissipate that doubt, as his master. Zamasu always had a chance to redeem himself. He clearly listened to Gowasu's advices and lessons. Heck, he was made Supreme Kai for a moment, and yet he didn't take advantage or abuse that power at all. Before meeting Goku, Zamasu was brash and arrogant, but willing to improve. Goku is what made him lose all patience with mortals, because he represents both mortals' violence (as he raised fists against the Gods), and the Gods' incompetence, who allowed their creations to surpass them.

Before meeting Goku, Zamasu was an arrogant prick indeed. But many good guys are also arrogant pricks, it's not really an indication of evil or madness.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:19 am

Merged Zamasu wrote:He genuinely felt sorry for what happened to the Babarians. After he sliced in half (damn foreshadowing...) that Babarian who was attacking him, Zamasu also felt confused and terrified, as if he had just realized what he had done.
Just rewatched it and that is not my impression at all, his first reaction after he killed the Barbarian was to smile, while Gowasu asked him what he had done, then it's true he looks confused right after but I wouldn't say terrified, actually this face he has on is very open to interpretation, but looks more like an short absence of some sort. Just after while Gowasu lectures him, you clearly see he's in disagreement with his master even if he doesn't argue.
Zamasu had a pure heart, as the tea he brew confirmed, but his pure heart was clouded by doubt.
Hmmm? Doesn't look like it's confirming anything the way you interpret it to me.

This discussion really makes me think more about Gowasu though, the more I think about it the harder I find for Gowasu not to see more than that is odd with his pupil.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by Merged Zamasu » Sun Jan 08, 2017 6:27 am

Zamasu had a pure heart, as the tea he brew confirmed, but his pure heart was clouded by doubt.

Hmmm? Doesn't look like it's confirming anything the way you interpret it to me.

This discussion really makes me think more about Gowasu though, the more I think about it the harder I find for Gowasu not to see more than that is odd with his pupil.
Gowasu himself confirmed Zamasu's heart was pure and good, because the tea he brew was a reflection of his soul. It was however clouded by doubt (as that video showed). Doubt that Gowasu, in his incompetence, failed to dissipate. Atleast he aknowledged he is responsible for Zamasu's madness, and failed to correct his mistakes. If a student fails, it's most often the teacher's fault, who couldn't help him enough.

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Re: Why butcher Zamasu's character...

Post by PsionicWarrior » Sun Jan 08, 2017 7:01 am

Well again, what is tricky with all this is that is all open to interpretation,
I think Gowasu was mistaken and failed to see the evil inside Zamasu's heart, at this point "clouded with doubt" can be strict denial to avoid seeing the elephant in the room lol
Gowasu is not responsible for Zamasu's madness, but for not seeing things coming or as I put it, subconsciously refusing to see things coming.

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