"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Doctor.]

He had an obsession with mortals, and Goku has the strongest mortal body.

That's extremely debatable considering he's Vegeta's equal, we've never seen Hit's full power and the twelve universes are full of powerful fighters that we'll meet next arc. Him having a hatred of mortals doesn't justify him stealing a mortal body, if he wants to eradicate them and prove the superiority of the Gods, then he should have stolen a God's body. It's not like he holds any respect towards them anyway, considering he killed them.

We're also not sure Zamasu can swap bodies with Beerus or Whis, but he's not familiar with them in any of the material anyway.

The Super DBs are said to grant any wish and we know they can affect Gods since they affected Zamasu.

Yes he did, Black said he came to Trunks' timeline to escape Beerus.

[LuckyCat]

The Super DBs are said to grant any wish and we know they can affect Gods since they affected Zamasu.

Yes he did, Black said he came to Trunks' timeline to escape Beerus.

Zamasu isn't a God; he's a Kaio in training. But even if Zamasu could take Beerus' body, Whis would stop him. Zamasu probably knew better than to try to mess with the upper hierarchy of Gods without first getting stronger.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If Zamasu has no obsession over Goku, then stealing his body is a moronic decision, as he could have tried to steal Vegeta's, Beerus', Whis', Hit's or even the Omni-King. At least in the anime you could excuse this by saying he was blinded by his hate.

Zamasu didn't steal Goku's body in the anime because he was obsessed with him, he stole it because he wanted the body of the most powerful mortal he knew. And the manga hasn't reached the point Zamasu explains this yet.

Zamasu isn't a God; he's a Kaio in training. But even if Zamasu could take Beerus' body, Whis would stop him. Zamasu probably knew better than to try to mess with the upper hierarchy of Gods without first getting stronger.

Kaios are gods too you know...

[Boo Machine]

Zamasu isn't a God; he's a Kaio in training. But even if Zamasu could take Beerus' body, Whis would stop him. Zamasu probably knew better than to try to mess with the upper hierarchy of Gods without first getting stronger.

Are the Kaio not gods?

Zamasu didn't steal Goku's body in the anime because he was obsessed with him, he stole it because he wanted the body of the most powerful mortal he knew. And the manga hasn't reached the point Zamasu explains this yet.

I thought him meeting Goku, Getting angry about seeing goku use God Ki on god tube, going to Zuno to ask about Goku and then stealing Gokus body was because he had an obsession with Goku. If he wanted the strongest mortal body could have not just asked Zuno who that would be? Or Ask the dragon to give it to him? (Assuming Goku isn't the strongest mortal of course, which I am) . Which I would still find to be odd that he would want to be a mortal at all. Still feel like the would have had an easier time with some other gods body.

[Doctor.]

The Super DBs are said to grant any wish and we know they can affect Gods since they affected Zamasu.

Yes he did, Black said he came to Trunks' timeline to escape Beerus.

Zamasu isn't a God; he's a Kaio in training. But even if Zamasu could take Beerus' body, Whis would stop him. Zamasu probably knew better than to try to mess with the upper hierarchy of Gods without first getting stronger.

Zamasu became a Kaioshin, that's why he can even use the rings, he's a God. He can endlessly escape through time and Whis wouldn't be able to stop him (you don't see Whis stopping Black even though he stole the body of his star pupil, did you?), there's no excuse for the story not to address this enormous elephant in the room. It's a flawed story from the start.

[Doctor.]

Zamasu didn't steal Goku's body in the anime because he was obsessed with him, he stole it because he wanted the body of the most powerful mortal he knew. And the manga hasn't reached the point Zamasu explains this yet.

Zamasu was very clearly obsessed with Goku in the anime. Irrelevant regardless, he has a developed motivation to steal his body in that medium.

They've already skimmed through the part Black tells Goku he killed him and his family, so I doubt the manga is going to even address how Black and Zamasu met. If it does, then fair enough. Until then, it's open to criticism.

[TheMikado]

He had an obsession with mortals, and Goku has the strongest mortal body.

That's extremely debatable considering he's Vegeta's equal, we've never seen Hit's full power and the twelve universes are full of powerful fighters that we'll meet next arc. Him having a hatred of mortals doesn't justify him stealing a mortal body, if he wants to eradicate them and prove the superiority of the Gods, then he should have stolen a God's body. It's not like he holds any respect towards them anyway, considering he killed them.

We're also not sure Zamasu can swap bodies with Beerus or Whis, but he's not familiar with them in any of the material anyway.

The Super DBs are said to grant any wish and we know they can affect Gods since they affected Zamasu.

Yes he did, Black said he came to Trunks' timeline to escape Beerus.

In the anime they specifically say they wanted to use a mortal body when he explains the zero mortals plan. If that thinking is still the same in the manga, which we don't know yet, then it makes sense to take the strongest mortals body. Why would he steal Vegeta's body when Kaioshin specifically mentioned Goku and Zamasu specifically looked up Goku? We have no idea if he watched any footage of Vegeta for comparison and even if he did Vegeta wasn't the one who defeated Buu and caught Zamasu's attention initially anyway. In fact this makes even more sense in the manga because we know that Goku's strength already surpassed Hit where in the anime Hit is around as strong as SSB X KK X 10 which should have made Hit the one Zamasu stole the body from if he was strictly looking for the most powerful mortal.

[The gr]

Let's be real goku black manga and anime origins is convoluted and confusing as hell

[TheMikado]

Let's be real goku black manga and anime origins is convoluted and confusing as hell

The whole thing is awful to be honest. But that's just my personal opinion.

[Doctor.]

He had an obsession with mortals, and Goku has the strongest mortal body.

That's extremely debatable considering he's Vegeta's equal, we've never seen Hit's full power and the twelve universes are full of powerful fighters that we'll meet next arc. Him having a hatred of mortals doesn't justify him stealing a mortal body, if he wants to eradicate them and prove the superiority of the Gods, then he should have stolen a God's body. It's not like he holds any respect towards them anyway, considering he killed them.

We're also not sure Zamasu can swap bodies with Beerus or Whis, but he's not familiar with them in any of the material anyway.

The Super DBs are said to grant any wish and we know they can affect Gods since they affected Zamasu.

Yes he did, Black said he came to Trunks' timeline to escape Beerus.

In the anime they specifically say they wanted to use a mortal body when he explains the zero mortals plan. If that thinking is still the same in the manga, which we don't know yet, then it makes sense to take the strongest mortals body. Why would he steal Vegeta's body when Kaioshin specifically mentioned Goku and Zamasu specifically looked up Goku? We have no idea if he watched any footage of Vegeta for comparison and even if he did Vegeta wasn't the one who defeated Buu and caught Zamasu's attention initially anyway. In fact this makes even more sense in the manga because we know that Goku's strength already surpassed Hit where in the anime Hit is around as strong as SSB X KK X 10 which should have made Hit the one Zamasu stole the body from if he was strictly looking for the most powerful mortal.

Except that's not the case at all. He stole Goku's body because he was obsessed with Goku and claimed that it was Goku who represented all of the sins of the mortals and the Gods. Hit doesn't come into the equation because Zamasu was obsessed with Goku, not Hit.

In the manga, there's no obsession, so there's no reason for Zamasu to be an idiot and not steal the body of a strong God of Destruction and quickly escape to an alternate timeline with the ring just like he did. You also can't use the anime to justify the manga (or vice versa), they're different mediums. If it's explained in the manga, then you have a point. Until then, it's open to criticism.

[LuckyCat]

Kaios are gods too you know...

Dende's a God, but there's definitely a difference from Dende's rank and Beerus'. And After this manga chapter, I'm starting to see Zamasu at more of the same celestial rank as Kibito.

[TheMikado]

That's extremely debatable considering he's Vegeta's equal, we've never seen Hit's full power and the twelve universes are full of powerful fighters that we'll meet next arc. Him having a hatred of mortals doesn't justify him stealing a mortal body, if he wants to eradicate them and prove the superiority of the Gods, then he should have stolen a God's body. It's not like he holds any respect towards them anyway, considering he killed them.



The Super DBs are said to grant any wish and we know they can affect Gods since they affected Zamasu.

Yes he did, Black said he came to Trunks' timeline to escape Beerus.

In the anime they specifically say they wanted to use a mortal body when he explains the zero mortals plan. If that thinking is still the same in the manga, which we don't know yet, then it makes sense to take the strongest mortals body. Why would he steal Vegeta's body when Kaioshin specifically mentioned Goku and Zamasu specifically looked up Goku? We have no idea if he watched any footage of Vegeta for comparison and even if he did Vegeta wasn't the one who defeated Buu and caught Zamasu's attention initially anyway. In fact this makes even more sense in the manga because we know that Goku's strength already surpassed Hit where in the anime Hit is around as strong as SSB X KK X 10 which should have made Hit the one Zamasu stole the body from if he was strictly looking for the most powerful mortal.

Except that's not the case at all. He stole Goku's body because he was obsessed with Goku and claimed that it was Goku who represented all of the sins of the mortals and the Gods. Hit doesn't come into the equation because Zamasu was obsessed with Goku, not Hit.

In the manga, there's no obsession, so there's no reason for Zamasu to be an idiot and not steal the body of a strong God of Destruction and quickly escape to an alternate timeline with the ring just like he did. You also can't use the anime to justify the manga (or vice versa), they're different mediums. If it's explained in the manga, then you have a point. Until then, it's open to criticism.

That doesn't make sense, I guess the justification for there being a Goku Black and it possibly being Zamasu also made absolutely no sense in the anime and was the most Horrid disgusting piece of media ever created right up until the point where they actual got to the point in the story where they explained things... Your argument as it stands now is that they haven't gotten to the point in the story where they possible give a plausible explain so it should be openly criticized because we haven't reached that point in the story yet where it makes sense? I assume you also hated every instance in the anime where they explain things later as well?

[HeroR]

Am I the only one here who doesnt overcomplicate things (with power levels and weird theories) and reads it for the nice art and entertaining story?

No, but those types of discussions get almost completely trampled here.

I'm not willing to get super critical toward either version of things until the manga completes this arc and a fully informed comparison can be made.

Also, I'm starting to think that the release of the SEG Super Saiyan multipliers a few years ago may have been one of the worst things to ever happen.

This is a bizarre argument.

You're saying the manga is rushed because they cut things out or condensed them.
You saying his argument is incorrect because he's assuming the manga didn't cut anything and that he cant prove Toei added anything.
But you can't prove the manga actually cut anything and that Toei didn't add anything either.

I'm not understanding how your argument that the manga cut and rushing things is valid, but his argument isn't based on the same exact criteria you use to support your argument.
Please explain.

HeroR's last few posts are pretty paradoxical. At this point it looks like an obvious case of trolling, so there is nothing to reason with.

I am not trolling nor do I appreciate being called one. If you disagree, fine. But don't call my points trolling.

[The gr]

Let's be real goku black manga and anime origins is convoluted and confusing as hell

The whole thing is awful to be honest. But that's just my personal opinion.

Like man I got a headache thinking about it I'll leave it to this video to explain why his origins make no sense https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OZfmaE0b944 and this one https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kcuooa0-hRk

[Doctor.]

That doesn't make sense,

How doesn't it make sense?

Goku fought Zamasu. Goku humiliated him and instigated his hatred for mortals even further. Zamasu, thus, wanted to learn more about Goku and stole Goku's body against his better judgement. When called out on this by Vegetto, he's surprised then makes up some bullshit about Goku "representing the sins of the mortals and the Gods", just showing how truly delusional and blinded he really was.

This isn't hard to grasp. It's a series for 7-year old kids. Zamasu hates Goku, so Zamasu steals his body and kills his family.

Your argument as it stands now is that they haven't gotten to the point in the story where they possible give a plausible explain so it should be openly criticized because we haven't reached that point in the story yet where it makes sense?

No, my argument as it stands now is that I doubt the manga is going to explain squat considering they skimmed through the entire scene where Black tells Goku how he killed him and his family in a couple of panels. The fact that Zamasu's motivation is so underdeveloped proves to me that it's not a big focal point in either Toriyama's notes or Toyotaro's mind. If he explains why Zamasu stole Goku's body specifically, then sure, I'll shut up. Until then, I'm open to criticize because I believe nothing will change.

I assume you also hated every instance in the anime where they explain things later as well?

Everyone does, only the people who go into the series with the mindset to damage control don't, because that's how criticism works. You take what you get at face value. You're not gonna review a movie and not point out the flaws just because they can be fixed in the hinted sequel in a few years, right? No, you're gonna complain about them, then if they patch those issues in the sequel, you'll shut up and admit you were wrong.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

No, my argument as it stands now is that I doubt the manga is going to explain squat considering they skimmed through the entire scene where Black tells Goku how he killed him and his family in a couple of panels. The fact that Zamasu's motivation is so underdeveloped proves to me that it's not a big focal point in either Toriyama's notes or Toyotaro's mind. If he explains why Zamasu stole Goku's body specifically, then sure, I'll shut up. Until then, I'm open to criticize because I believe nothing will change.

You say "underdeveloped", but that's not really what's going on here, is it? In the manga, Zamasu is just one layer thinner, and that layer happened to be what hooked you. Toyotaro's Zamasu is perfectly fine for what he was going for, and honestly, is barely different from the anime's version. The differences in the character are superficial at best.

[Doctor.]

The differences in the character are superficial at best.

This sentence doesn't really mean anything in the context of Dragon Ball, I'm aware of that, but the series isn't complex enough where any differences between a character portrayal in certain mediums will be anything more than "superficial". I prefer anime Zamasu because more aspects of the character are explored and he has a superior motivation to his wrongdoings, but I wasn't even arguing as to whether or not anime Zamasu was better than manga Zamasu. I'm arguing as to why I think the layer that's missing, as you say, makes the entire premise of the story arc flawed.

[TheMikado]

No, my argument as it stands now is that I doubt the manga is going to explain squat considering they skimmed through the entire scene where Black tells Goku how he killed him and his family in a couple of panels. The fact that Zamasu's motivation is so underdeveloped proves to me that it's not a big focal point in either Toriyama's notes or Toyotaro's mind. If he explains why Zamasu stole Goku's body specifically, then sure, I'll shut up. Until then, I'm open to criticize because I believe nothing will change.

You say "underdeveloped", but that's not really what's going on here, is it? In the manga, Zamasu is just one layer thinner, and that layer happened to be what hooked you. Toyotaro's Zamasu is perfectly fine for what he was going for, and honestly, is barely different from the anime's version. The differences in the character are superficial at best.

Exactly, in the context of its own continuity to characters and their motivations make sense and the story plods along at its own pace. There are major issues I have such as Toyotaro's poor attempt to use Trunks exposition to imply Black was up to something, but it poorly executed and fell flat. But the continuities have to be compared within themselves. I dislike the anime because its own internal power levels and plot points such as the creation of Black are unresolved within their own continuities. In the manga Zamasu is pretty much just a villain and doesn't have a real intimate connection to Goku. Its fine to dislike that change but the character itself within the story still makes sense, IF the motivations are the same as what was revealed in the anime which is that Zamasu just wanted a strong mortal body and Goku basically was it due to being specifically told about Goku from kaioshin.

[Draconic]

I'm sorry Doctor, but that's not how you criticize serialized media. A movie is a complete product, with a beginning, middle and end, so whatever problems it has they are self containd within it, no matter what the sequel does. A comic/TV series and everything done in an episodic format can't be criticized for things that can be explored later on. The story is in the middle. If before the ending of the arc your issues with it are not resolved, then it's fair to point them out. You can't say a comic is bad if one issue is, you can't say a whole manga is bad based on one chapter, or a whole series is bad based on one episode.
Going with your movie example, it would be like judging everything based on an ambigous scene in the middle of the second act. I understand the sentiment and I too think Zamasu/Black's characterization in the manga is beyond repair at this point, but generally speaking, judging an unfolding story before you have all the details is not the way to go.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Kaios are gods too you know...

Dende's a God, but there's definitely a difference from Dende's rank and Beerus'. And After this manga chapter, I'm starting to see Zamasu at more of the same celestial rank as Kibito.

Higher god or not, a god is a god. Both Kaio & Dende could sense Beerus' ki.

Zamasu was very clearly obsessed with Goku in the anime. Irrelevant regardless, he has a developed motivation to steal his body in that medium.

They've already skimmed through the part Black tells Goku he killed him and his family, so I doubt the manga is going to even address how Black and Zamasu met. If it does, then fair enough. Until then, it's open to criticism.

It was Merged Zamasu that explained why he specifically wanted the body of a mortal, so we haven't gotten there yet. And Zamasu didn't steal Goku's body simply because he was obsessed with him, it was many factors that pushed him to that decision, and all of them are in both manga & anime. The anime simply made it more personal by having Zamasu experiencing himself that Goku was stronger than him, instead of just hearing this from U7 Kaioshin.