Manga chapter 20, no more Zenkais

[Doctor.]

We don't know how strong Zamasu was in his Kai body but let's say he's as strong as SS2 Goku.

Didn't he get beat by SS1 Goku this chapter? Even adding on that strength to Goku's base, it wouldn't even put him at SS2 level, let alone SS3. Anime kinda fixes this by making Zamasu SS2-level and having Black at SS2 level as well, but then it fucks it up by making him SSG level in base just a few days later.

Just more Dragon Ball bullshit, I can live with it.

[DBZ Macky]

So any clue when exactly did "Zenkai boosts" stopped being a thing?
Maybe after the Saiyan becomes a Super Saiyan?
And please don't say "After Freeza" or something simple like that

In fact, Daizenshuu only says something along the line of the boosts becoming "insignificant". It says nothing like "they completely stopped" or anything like that.

[Doctor.]

So any clue when exactly did "Zenkai boosts" stopped being a thing?
Maybe after the Saiyan becomes a Super Saiyan?
And please don't say "After Freeza" or something simple like that

In fact, Daizenshuu only says something along the line of the boosts becoming "insignificant". It says nothing like "they completely stopped" or anything like that.

By the time battle powers started getting into the millions, I assume they started becoming too low to be of any difference.

[ekrolo2]

Zenkai are like the Saiyan tail, they serve a purpose for a certain domain of strength then they're discarded when they become useless.

We don't know how strong Zamasu was in his Kai body but let's say he's as strong as SS2 Goku.

Didn't he get beat by SS1 Goku this chapter? Even adding on that strength to Goku's base, it wouldn't even put him at SS2 level, let alone SS3. Anime kinda fixes this by making Zamasu SS2-level and having Black at SS2 level as well, but then it fucks it up by making him SSG level in base just a few days later.

Just more Dragon Ball bullshit, I can live with it.

The first blow has him beat Zamasu with Blue but then he's powered down, we're probably missing something here dialogue w

[Speedster]

It seems that most fans think ‘Zenkai boosts’ only apply to recovering from near death situations but Saiyans' ability to improve always extended beyond that. Saiyans are also known to improve while/after fighting stronger opponents. So although recovering from near death situations stopped giving Goku/Vegeta power boosts, fighting stronger opponents still does the trick. Toriyama himself confirmed this in his BoGs interview below (And don't start with the 6, 10 ,15 scale - that is not what I highlighted):

Compared to Beerus, God of Destruction, how strong is [Super Saiyan] God?
I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

And please don't say "After Freeza" or something simple like that

"Sometime after Namek" is literally the only honest answer you can give. You can speculate further than that, but it will be no more than speculation.

[The gr]

The cheap plot device stop working since the cell saga so this isn't anything new

[DBZ Macky]

Speedster, when have we ever seen that so called ability to improve in the original Manga? It definitely does exist in Toriyama's mind and was also brought up in the DBS Anime with Vegeta's comment about Hit, but it doesn't seem to be anywhere in the Manga OR the Anime for that matter.

Do you think Nappa's battle power increased from 4,000 while fighting Goku? That's really the only possible instance I can think of.

[ekrolo2]

Speedster, when have we ever seen that so called ability to improve in the original Manga? It definitely does exist in Toriyama's mind and was also brought up in the DBS Anime with Vegeta's comment about Hit, but it doesn't seem to be anywhere in the Manga OR the Anime for that matter.

Do you think Nappa's battle power increased from 4,000 while fighting Goku? That's really the only possible instance I can think of.

It literally never happens, not in the way Toriyama describes, at least. The only exception you could maybe make is everyone getting a lot stronger by sparring in the ROSAT but I think the ROSAT is specifically what yields the gains. I really doubt any of them would've gotten anywhere near that strong if they spent a year fighting one another outside.

[Speedster]

Speedster, when have we ever seen that so called ability to improve in the original Manga? It definitely does exist in Toriyama's mind and was also brought up in the DBS Anime with Vegeta's comment about Hit, but it doesn't seem to be anywhere in the Manga OR the Anime for that matter.

Well it happened in the Buu arc, definitely in the anime-version. Goku went from being no much for regular Super Buu’s strength as well as being completely unable to stop kid Buu’s blast that destroyed the Earth to go toe to toe with kid Buu, a kid Buu that in the anime was flat out stated to be the strongest form of Buu in DBZ episode 279 and again in DBZ episode 280. Also Vegeta while watching Goku fighting kid Buu he gave his respect speech to Goku where amongst others he said about Goku in chapter 510:

But, he’s different… He doesn’t fight to win. He fights so that he absolutely won’t lose, continually overcoming his limits…!

So here Vegeta says that Goku overcomes his limits and improves while fighting opponents who can push him to his very limits. Apparently it also suggests that Vegeta was witnessing this happening once again at that very moment i.e. Goku rised once again to the occasion, this time to much the mighty kid Buu.

The only exception you could maybe make is everyone getting a lot stronger by sparring in the ROSAT but I think the ROSAT is specifically what yields the gains. I really doubt any of them would've gotten anywhere near that strong if they spent a year fighting one another outside.

The ROSAT is indeed another example. Goku and Gohan got a lot stronger than Vegeta and Trunks (and that in less than 1 year) despite the latter re-entering ROSAT for a second year and training in order to master/achieve FPSSJ. And that was due to getting there individually and doing no sparring.

[Saturnine]

Do you think Nappa's battle power increased from 4,000 while fighting Goku? That's really the only possible instance I can think of.

It didn't, it just never was his maximum, because he didn't need to tap into a power that high to take care of everyone. Only Kakarot gave him trouble, so he had to go all out. I wouldn't put it down to growth as a fighter, it was just a simple power up to the maximum.

[Gog]

Zenkai's are something that disappeared after the namek saga. Which was a good thing, as they were just lazy ways of getting the main hero's to the villain's level. Never forgave Cell for mentioning them.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

If zenkai's still existed, nobody would require training. The only point to training then would be to refine or polish a particular skill or ki attack.

I knew they ended a long time ago. By the Android arc they were not hinted. I do have a theory on Cell's zenkai though. His cells from Goku and Vegeta were taken before either of these characters experienced Zenkai's so my theory is the "tapping mechanism" hadn't yet been tapped in Cell's body, so he had their Saiyan potential inside of him. Of course I could be wrong but it's the only way I can make sense out of that random power up.

[DBZ Macky]

Do you think Nappa's battle power increased from 4,000 while fighting Goku? That's really the only possible instance I can think of.

It didn't, it just never was his maximum, because he didn't need to tap into a power that high to take care of everyone. Only Kakarot gave him trouble, so he had to go all out. I wouldn't put it down to growth as a fighter, it was just a simple power up to the maximum.

So you're saying that Nappa could alter his battle power but Vegeta couldn't do the same?

[Saturnine]

Do you think Nappa's battle power increased from 4,000 while fighting Goku? That's really the only possible instance I can think of.

It didn't, it just never was his maximum, because he didn't need to tap into a power that high to take care of everyone. Only Kakarot gave him trouble, so he had to go all out. I wouldn't put it down to growth as a fighter, it was just a simple power up to the maximum.

So you're saying that Nappa could alter his battle power but Vegeta couldn't do the same?

They clearly both could. Some sources say Vegeta started at 16k and worked up to his maximum of 18.

But Nappa is more important here. He clearly powered up against Goku, it was even mentioned. He went toe to toe with Goku, forcing him to go Kaioken to intercept him. Do you really think he could fight evenly someone with a power of over 8000 at 4000? No way in hell.