DB/Fiction's Handling of Diversity

[ekrolo2]

Deadpool loses either way

[mecha3000]

As for DB, if Goku or even a 5 year old Gohan gets beaten nearly to death, the reaction is noticably different than when Pan gets the crap kicked out of her by Spopovitch. It's like Deadpool, "Is it sexist to hit you or more sexist not to hit you? It's all very confusing!"

Yeah, I agree that it should be fair for both male and female characters to be presented the same way - even in a fight (just as long as it isn't presented as straight up physical abuse). That's why I'm excited to see Broly Character in action because I'm hoping she legitimately battles someone who doesn't hold back because she's a woman. Basically, I want a fair fight between two DB characters regardless of gender.

Also, I always think back to that lovable and justified Deadpool line for similar discussions about gender equality.

[VegettoEX]

I don't SJW ironically. I find it to be a dangerous movement. It's barely a movement, but you can find videos and written examples of college kids acting beligerent because they were looking for something to find offensive or because someone holds different ideas than them. The call for safe spaces isn't some harmless idea. It's a dangerous precident to set at college campuses. Instead of kids hearing a bunch of different views, some they might even find abhorent, they call for these teachers or administators to be fired. If their demands are given into, the inmates will be running the asylum. If you haven't found a point worth considering, then I don't think you are looking hard enough.

If you're going to complain about something barely being a movement, please don't conflate various other movements/arguments into a single point and collectively hand-wave them.

I'll concede that of course we should not just provide any given maniac with a voice trumpeting the call for diversity and inclusion the leadership position they think they hold, if you can simultaneously concede that holy shit maybe this world is actually kinda fucked up and people with no voice and diminishing rights could use some representation and assistance.

Since I think a reminder is order from the last time this came up, the entire administrative team here is 100% on board with providing an open, diverse, accepting, understanding atmosphere and we will not tolerate anything to the contrary.

[floofychan333]

On Arrow, the villain Ra's al Ghul forced his daughter Nyssa, a lesbian, to marry a man. In no way did it show this in a positive light. The entire point was to make the bad guy even more of a villain. However, people on the internet went into a tizzy and shouted "How can you do that to an LBGT character!?"

As for DB, if Goku or even a 5 year old Gohan gets beaten nearly to death, the reaction is noticably different than when Pan gets the crap kicked out of her by Spopovitch. It's like Deadpool, "Is it sexist to hit you or more sexist not to hit you? It's all very confusing!"

People will get mad at female characters suffering because violence against women is a very serious problem.

[ekrolo2]

On Arrow, the villain Ra's al Ghul forced his daughter Nyssa, a lesbian, to marry a man. In no way did it show this in a positive light. The entire point was to make the bad guy even more of a villain. However, people on the internet went into a tizzy and shouted "How can you do that to an LBGT character!?"

As for DB, if Goku or even a 5 year old Gohan gets beaten nearly to death, the reaction is noticably different than when Pan gets the crap kicked out of her by Spopovitch. It's like Deadpool, "Is it sexist to hit you or more sexist not to hit you? It's all very confusing!"

People will get mad at female characters suffering because violence against women is a very serious problem.

Why isn't violence PERIOD a problem though, why is it selectively an issue? Dragon Ball has all sorts of awful thing happen to everybody from grown men to kids to women to old people, why's Videl any worse than Goku getting his body destroyed by Vegeta or Gohan, a little kid, having his neck broken?

I don't SJW ironically. I find it to be a dangerous movement. It's barely a movement, but you can find videos and written examples of college kids acting beligerent because they were looking for something to find offensive or because someone holds different ideas than them. The call for safe spaces isn't some harmless idea. It's a dangerous precident to set at college campuses. Instead of kids hearing a bunch of different views, some they might even find abhorent, they call for these teachers or administators to be fired. If their demands are given into, the inmates will be running the asylum. If you haven't found a point worth considering, then I don't think you are looking hard enough.

If you're going to complain about something barely being a movement, please don't conflate various other movements/arguments into a single point and collectively hand-wave them.

I'll concede that of course we should not just provide any given maniac with a voice trumpeting the call for diversity and inclusion the leadership position they think they hold, if you can simultaneously concede that holy shit maybe this world is actually kinda fucked up and people with no voice and diminishing rights could use some representation and assistance.

The problem is this very same movement DOESN'T want to acknowledge the world is fucked up for everyone, there are very many examples out there where they outright attack creators because someone other than a white, straight guy had something bad happen t o them. They only want representation of other cultures or ethnicities as long as you glorify them while (ironically) whitewashing the bad things to not hurt their feelings.

[floofychan333]

If you're going to complain about something barely being a movement, please don't conflate various other movements/arguments into a single point and collectively hand-wave them.

I'll concede that of course we should not just provide any given maniac with a voice trumpeting the call for diversity and inclusion the leadership position they think they hold, if you can simultaneously concede that holy shit maybe this world is actually kinda fucked up and people with no voice and diminishing rights could use some representation and assistance.

Since I think a reminder is order from the last time this came up, the entire administrative team here is 100% on board with providing an open, diverse, accepting, understanding atmosphere and we will not tolerate anything to the contrary.

VegettoEX, I always admire your statements when this kind of topic comes up. I remember you provided a voice of reason when I posted a social issues thread a while back and I appreciated that. Thank you, and please keep up the good work.

[floofychan333]

On Arrow, the villain Ra's al Ghul forced his daughter Nyssa, a lesbian, to marry a man. In no way did it show this in a positive light. The entire point was to make the bad guy even more of a villain. However, people on the internet went into a tizzy and shouted "How can you do that to an LBGT character!?"

As for DB, if Goku or even a 5 year old Gohan gets beaten nearly to death, the reaction is noticably different than when Pan gets the crap kicked out of her by Spopovitch. It's like Deadpool, "Is it sexist to hit you or more sexist not to hit you? It's all very confusing!"

People will get mad at female characters suffering because violence against women is a very serious problem.

Why isn't violence PERIOD a problem though, why is it selectively an issue? Dragon Ball has all sorts of awful thing happen to everybody from grown men to kids to women to old people, why's Videl any worse than Goku getting his body destroyed by Vegeta or Gohan, a little kid, having his neck broken?

Violence against any character we love is hard-hitting but seeing violence against Videl and kid Gohan is just more despicable. Some honourable warriors in ancient times would pillage but spare the women and children, and this sense of honour continues to this day.

[ekrolo2]

Violence against any character we love is hard-hitting but seeing violence against Videl and kid Gohan is just more despicable. Some honourable warriors in ancient times would pillage but spare the women and children, and this sense of honour continues to this day.

That is the point, though, it's meant to be despicable, that's why makes it effective and a great deal of people want these elements of storytelling gone because they don't want anything making them uncomfortable.

Still, I must give you major kudos for acknowledging Videl & Gohan as both being equally despicable. I've argued the comparison beforehand and you'd be amazed by how many people say Gohan being tortured by Cell or smashed by Recoome & Freeza is a-okay because he's a guy therefore its okay to beat him up.

[floofychan333]

Violence against any character we love is hard-hitting but seeing violence against Videl and kid Gohan is just more despicable. Some honourable warriors in ancient times would pillage but spare the women and children, and this sense of honour continues to this day.

That is the point, though, it's meant to be despicable, that's why makes it effective and a great deal of people want these elements of storytelling gone because they don't want anything making them uncomfortable.

Still, I must give you major kudos for acknowledging Videl & Gohan as both being equally despicable. I've argued the comparison beforehand and you'd be amazed by how many people say Gohan being tortured by Cell or smashed by Recoome & Freeza is a-okay because he's a guy therefore its okay to beat him up.

I just think that violence against women and children shouldn't be a regular occurence. Also, violence against children is also a huge issue so watching a kid get beaten up is painful to watch.

[ekrolo2]

I just think that violence against women and children shouldn't be a regular occurence. Also, violence against children is also a huge issue so watching a kid get beaten up is painful to watch.

Depends on the context for me, it's a lot more rough when someone is forced into a situation where they get hurt or they're hurt as a product of the violence. But if in a story where saya female soldier gets her leg blown off by a mine, I'm sorry, but she signed up for that, she knew it could happen when she joined the army and thus it makes sense that it could realistically come to pass. Having her stay squeaky clean when everyone else gets smashed around just comes off as eye-rolling than "respectful".

It's why I don't care for Captain Marvel get hurt then I do for Iron Man receiving the same punishment, they're superheroes, getting the shit kicked out of them is par for the course, they know this is an occupational hazard. There's no reason for Carol to get through fighting Thanos, Galactus and the living Tribunal without a scratch while its okay for Tony to get his spine ripped out and hung off a tree by it.

[sintzu]

You can find videos and written examples of college kids acting beligerent because they were looking for something to find offensive or because someone holds different ideas than them.

I go to college and I have to put up with these "people" every day.

They have 0 respect for their teachers, for their classmates or for the learning enviornment they're in.

[mecha3000]

Retitled this thread from "DB's Diversity" to "DB's Handling of Diversity" due to noticing a change in the topic discussion. If anyone else has any thoughts on the discussion, please contribute - I really appreciate the input! Also, imagine a scene where Broly fights a female character and brutally defeats her. Now, imagine a scene where Female Broly fights a male character and brutally defeats him. Is there a difference? Not at all. The latter character the former defeats has still been brutally defeated so it should still be viewed the same. However, I do understand that as humans - There is a tendency for us to want to respect women and children as more fragile beings, but in fiction: I feel like that shouldn't apply.

[Kanassa]

However, I do understand that as humans - There is a tendency for us to want to respect women and children as more fragile beings, but in fiction: I feel like that shouldn't apply.

Especially when their biceps are bigger than our heads...

[mecha3000]

However, I do understand that as humans - There is a tendency for us to want to respect women and children as more fragile beings, but in fiction: I feel like that shouldn't apply.

Especially when their biceps are bigger than our heads...

Very true.

[ABED]

I just think that violence against women and children shouldn't be a regular occurence. Also, violence against children is also a huge issue so watching a kid get beaten up is painful to watch.

Sure, they are awful real life issues, but if the purpose is to get the audience to feel hatred towards the villain and sympathy for the good guy, then it shouldn't be off limits to do things that make the audience uncomfortable.

If you're going to complain about something barely being a movement, please don't conflate various other movements/arguments into a single point and collectively hand-wave them.

I'm having trouble following your argument. What have I conflated?

if you can simultaneously concede that holy shit maybe this world is actually kinda fucked up and people with no voice and diminishing rights could use some representation and assistance.

It depends on what you mean by assistance. Yeah, this world is screwed up, though I think we probably won't agree about what the reasons why are or how to fix it.

[Kamiccolo9]

For example, Theon Greyjoy can have his dick literally cut off (along with other bits and pieces) and no one cares, if you did something like this to a woman, everyone loses their shit and compares you to Hitler.

In the same storyline as Theon, you have Jeyne Pool being utterly dehumanized, raped over and over and over again, having her identity literally beaten out of her in the same way as Theon, and spending the majority of her life chained to a bed. I'm not seeing this all-encompassing outrage.

[ekrolo2]

For example, Theon Greyjoy can have his dick literally cut off (along with other bits and pieces) and no one cares, if you did something like this to a woman, everyone loses their shit and compares you to Hitler.

In the same storyline as Theon, you have Jeyne Pool being utterly dehumanized, raped over and over and over again, having her identity literally beaten out of her in the same way as Theon, and spending the majority of her life chained to a bed. I'm not seeing this all-encompassing outrage.

The outrage comes more from the show people, not the book crowd. Sansa's marriage to Ramsey makes people flip shit along with the showrunners getting called sexist but what Ramsey does to Theon is a-okay.

[rereboy]

For example, Theon Greyjoy can have his dick literally cut off (along with other bits and pieces) and no one cares, if you did something like this to a woman, everyone loses their shit and compares you to Hitler.

In the same storyline as Theon, you have Jeyne Pool being utterly dehumanized, raped over and over and over again, having her identity literally beaten out of her in the same way as Theon, and spending the majority of her life chained to a bed. I'm not seeing this all-encompassing outrage.

The outrage comes more from the show people, not the book crowd. Sansa's marriage to Ramsey makes people flip shit along with the showrunners getting called sexist but what Ramsey does to Theon is a-okay.

Vocal minorities. They are often very successful in appearing to be many or most people especially online, but that's about it.

[Kamiccolo9]

For example, Theon Greyjoy can have his dick literally cut off (along with other bits and pieces) and no one cares, if you did something like this to a woman, everyone loses their shit and compares you to Hitler.

In the same storyline as Theon, you have Jeyne Pool being utterly dehumanized, raped over and over and over again, having her identity literally beaten out of her in the same way as Theon, and spending the majority of her life chained to a bed. I'm not seeing this all-encompassing outrage.

The outrage comes more from the show people, not the book crowd. Sansa's marriage to Ramsey makes people flip shit along with the showrunners getting called sexist but what Ramsey does to Theon is a-okay.

Well, after what they did to Dorne in the show, I think it's safe to say that there is some undercurrent of sexism with the showrunners. I think the issue with Game of Thrones was more of a long-time problem with the show coming to a boil, moreso than one specific event. A lot of which could have been solved by leaving Dorne alone and keeping Arianne, who is probably the best-written female character in the series, but nope. Jamie and Bronn's misadventures in Porne it is.

[Gog]

Violence against any character we love is hard-hitting but seeing violence against Videl and kid Gohan is just more despicable. Some honourable warriors in ancient times would pillage but spare the women and children, and this sense of honour continues to this day.

Yes violence against any characters we love is hard-hitting. But I could not give one single fuck if violence is against Videl or Goten. Those warrior's are despicable monsters, who still pillage and burn, and kill, and murder, people,. But they let go of the women and children. So their A-OK!