DB/Fiction's Handling of Diversity

[ABED]

No. I also think there should be more ghosts and robots.

Not Gremlins or demons? You are a racist!

Seriously though, I do think there's some value in diversity, but I believe using terms like "representation" might seem innocuous, but it's not. Does every minority character represent their respective minority? If one of the villains is a latino, is that representative of latinos?

One of my issues with diversity, aside from the actual art, is when the criticism of art places diversity above story and character. For instance, I was not a huge fan of Luke Cage. It's enjoyable, mostly at the beginning, but it sags in the middle and gets boring by the end. However, dare say you don't like it or the music and you may very well be called racist. The critical response was overwhelmingly favorable towards it because of the issue of diversity. I read a number of reviews that talked about diversity and social relevance and completely brushed over the pacing issues and the uninteresting villain.

[Cipher]

One of my issues with diversity, aside from the actual art, is when the criticism of art places diversity above story and character. For instance, I was not a huge fan of Luke Cage. It's enjoyable, mostly at the beginning, but it sags in the middle and gets boring by the end. However, dare say you don't like it or the music and you may very well be called racist. The critical response was overwhelmingly favorable towards it because of the issue of diversity. I read a number of reviews that talked about diversity and social relevance and completely brushed over the pacing issues and the uninteresting villain.

I've never encountered this conversation re: Luke Cage. Someone would have to be a serious militant to not allow reasonable criticisms of the show just because of its positive representation. Don't listen to unreasonable extremes.

For what it's worth, I thought Luke Cage was a great show for the first half, then stuttered toward an ending that got a little too over-the-top comic-booky in a few, limited ways to mesh with the tone it had set up -- or maybe it didn't sell that shift well enough. Good, but not great. Unrelated to my feelings on its consistency, I do give it credit for actually being a superhero show set in a black community that tries as hard as possible not to sanitize anything or apologize for being about black characters, because that's unfortunately relatively new ground.

[TheatreStyleKai]

The main character, Son Goku, is already a mentally challenged minority. I'd argue that would be diverse enough, but then almost everyone in his close circle of friends has some sort of physical abnormality (Kuririn's a little person, Tenshinhan has a third eye, Bulma is a woman, etc.) If anything Dragon Ball is way ahead of the curve on diversity.

[ABED]

I've never encountered this conversation re: Luke Cage. Someone would have to be a serious militant to not allow reasonable criticisms of the show just because of its positive representation. Don't listen to unreasonable extremes.

For what it's worth, I thought Luke Cage was a great show for the first half, then stuttered toward an ending that got a little too over-the-top comic-booky in a few, limited ways to mesh with the tone it had set up -- or maybe it didn't sell that shift well enough. Good, but not great. Unrelated to my feelings on its consistency, I do give it credit for actually being a superhero show set in a black community that tries as hard as possible not to sanitize anything or apologize for being about black characters, because that's unfortunately relatively new ground.

I think it's a matter of not selling the shift well enough. My school of thought is tone can and often should change in stories. While I give it credit, criticism should not brush over the narrative issues. Jessica Jones does a far better job of telling a story with a non-male lead than Luke Cage does of telling a story set in a black community. I think telling a good story first and foremost would be far more beneficial for these sorts of issues than primarily pushing for diversity ever could.

I've always loved the chemistry between Goku and Bulma, not of the sexual kind. It's a bit of a shame that it's not as prominent later. In fact it's pretty non-existent as the series progresses.

[Doctor.]

So because society once only tolerated and expected works featuring and by straight, white males, we're just supposed to take that as a default from which deviating is bad? Do you see how that's ... kind of an issue? You talk about "limiting" art, but that's exactly what led to non-diverse casts dominating popular fiction in the first place. You had to be a certain way to write this stuff, and your characters had to be a certain way to gain traction and not become niche.

I don't think anyone has a problem with just having females or queer folk in stories. The ones that do are extremists and probably bigots to begin with. People have a problem if they feel like the characters are there to fill a quota.

For the record, I only have a problem with this issue when writers start changing a preestablished character's gender, race, sexuality or whatever for no reason.

As a white, male writer myself, I'd feel like a huge failure if I couldn't write someone who didn't match my exact background. I don't go out of my way to include checkboxed demographics in every short story I tackle, but if I were put in charge of an expansive fantasy universe, would I think twice about whether every focal character should be a straight, white dude? Hell yeah. That's just not realistic, and we've had decades and decades of it.

That's fine, but why is not realistic? It's just as likely that a white man would be the lead in a grand scope story as anyone else. In these kinds of stories, it depends on the demographic, I think. I very much doubt Dragon Ball would have become as popular if Goku was a woman, and that's because the type of series DB is appeals to boys and boys like to self-insert.

I don't think it's bigoted, but I don't think it comes with much reflection.

The idea that something like Star Wars, a large fantasy universe, telling a new story with a woman and black guy at the fore, is somehow less genuine than it is when the same universe features a cast of four or five focal white characters is incredibly suspect to me.

It's damned if you do, damned if you don't when it comes to creators just "writing what they know" too. From what I've encountered, arguments against attempts to diversify casts and arguments against attempts to diversify writers' stables on large properties tend to go hand in hand.

I can't comment on the Star Wars example because I'm not a part of the fanbase so I don't know how people reacted to it. But, like I said, if there were complaints, I can only assume it comes from the crowd thinking the intent of the story isn't genuine and just wants to appeal to the social justice crowd to gain a few bucks.

I agree that it's a damned if you do, damned if you don't kind of situation right now, but I only think it got this bad because pleas for diversity in media made big companies such as Marvel change iconic characters to please the casual audience, leaving the hardcore fans angry. So now whenever a minority group is represented, people are going to suspect the writer's motive.

I also think some complaints exist depending on the struggle of the character. If it's a black character struggling with racism, a gay character struggling with homophobia, a female character struggling with sexism, so on. That just screams trying to push an agenda to many people. Those kinds of stories have been done a million times before. Why can't we have a movie with a black lead without some kind of racism message or theme being shoehorned into it?

[ABED]

I also think some complaints exist depending on the struggle of the character. If it's a black character struggling with racism, a gay character struggling with homophobia, a female character struggling with sexism, so on. That just screams trying to push an agenda to many people. Those kinds of stories have been done a million times before. Why can't we have a movie with a black lead without some kind of racism message or theme being shoehorned into it?

Good point, but it all depends on execution. One of my favorite things about the Lethal Weapon movies is that Murtaugh's race is never a big deal. It's rarely if ever brought up.

Forced diversity is something like changing Dr. Watson into a woman.

One of the oddest assumptions that is rarely questioned is the idea that people connect more to characters that are like them in some way, usually some unchosen characteristic like sex or race. As if girls would like Sherlock better if it was about two females. Supernatural is one of my favorite shows and it surprised the hell out of me that its fanbase is comprised mostly of women. Yes, the leads are attractive, but what keeps the show going isn't eye candy, it's the relationship between the two brothers.

[Cipher]

[I think it's a matter of not selling the shift well enough. My school of thought is tone can and often should change in stories. While I give it credit, criticism should not brush over the narrative issues. Jessica Jones does a far better job of telling a story with a non-male lead than Luke Cage does of telling a story set in a black community. I think telling a good story first and foremost would be far more beneficial for these sorts of issues than primarily pushing for diversity ever could.

I've always loved the chemistry between Goku and Bulma, not of the sexual kind. It's a bit of a shame that it's not as prominent later. In fact it's pretty non-existent as the series progresses.

Agreed with both parts of this post.

As for the Marvel shows, I think Jessica Jones is the better and more consistent of the two, but the stumblings of Luke Cage for me are entirely unrelated to its decision to focus on the issues of a black community (except for maybe how its last third moves away from that focus). I don't think either reads like it's "primarily pushing for diversity." They're just telling superhero stories that feel germane to their characters and environments.

That's fine, but why is not realistic? It's just as likely that a white man would be the lead in a grand scope story as anyone else. In these kinds of stories, it depends on the demographic, I think. I very much doubt Dragon Ball would have become as popular if Goku was a woman, and that's because the type of series DB is appeals to boys and boys like to self-insert.

I'm not saying a white male protagonist should raise any hackles, and god knows they aren't going anywhere. Any type of character can have a story to tell. I'm just responding to the idea that removing their place as the expected "norm" in genre fiction is in any way inauthentic. Especially when you get into huge worlds and casts.

I think it's a total lie to pretend that all-white-male or largely-white-male casts in sci-fi and superhero worlds are any less politically motivated than diverse casts. A few decades ago, that political motivation was "We need traditional characters to feel safe and to sell." Why are people so outraged when the pendulum swings in the other direction, especially when it leads to more realistic demographics in big casts? Star Wars and Marvel (both cited earlier in this thread for "forced diversity") are huge worlds. Not every interesting story is going to feature a traditionally white male protagonist, or mostly white cast.

[Doctor.]

One of the oddest assumptions that is rarely questioned is the idea that people connect more to characters that are like them in some way, usually some unchosen characteristic like sex or race. As if girls would like Sherlock better if it was about two females. Supernatural is one of my favorite shows and it surprised the hell out of me that its fanbase is comprised mostly of women. Yes, the leads are attractive, but what keeps the show going isn't eye candy, it's the relationship between the two brothers.

I can only comment on this with my own personal experience. I tend to get attached more to the characters who resemble me in some way, usually if they share personality traits, though there are exceptions of course.

[ABED]

One of the oddest assumptions that is rarely questioned is the idea that people connect more to characters that are like them in some way, usually some unchosen characteristic like sex or race. As if girls would like Sherlock better if it was about two females. Supernatural is one of my favorite shows and it surprised the hell out of me that its fanbase is comprised mostly of women. Yes, the leads are attractive, but what keeps the show going isn't eye candy, it's the relationship between the two brothers.

I can only comment on this with my own personal experience. I tend to get attached more to the characters who resemble me in some way, usually if they share personality traits, though there are exceptions of course.

Sure, but personality is different. It's chosen.

There's a difference between creating Black Panther and making Iron Man a black teen girl. Hell, even creating John Stewart is better because the Green Lantern is a group comprised of many. It also helped that he was educated. Black Panther shows creativity (even though the idea of an African closed off monarchy being the richest and most technologically advanced society in the world is ridiculous), whereas taking an established icon and making them a different color or sex is lazy. I've heard not just fans but writers say it's difficult to create new characters that connect like the classics do. It's hard to break through. Cry me a river, that's their job!

I'd much rather see a series like DB not add more diversity if they aren't going to do it well.

[Chuquita]

I read once somewhere about writing the character first, thinking about the personality instead of the character's looks. That a well written character should be able to function ahead of what they look like, not because of what they look like.

I can't imagine how stressful it must be to write while making sure you check each and every box off a list. I'd be so worried about accidentally messing up it'd feel like stage fright.

I imagine it comes more naturally to other writers. Some have that motivation to be politically active.

I think characters can be likeable no matter what they look like or who they like. I think it's important to put effort into personality though. Making the character feel like a three dimensional being makes the whole thing feel more natural and less forced.

[ABED]

I do think going into story with the intention of making a political statement can still be conducive to great art, like in the case of Buffy the Vampire Slayer TV series, but that's because Joss told stories with a fully fleshed out character.

[Chuquita]

Having three dimensional personalities to characters is definitely important. It's the difference between connecting to a character vs feeling like the writer just wants your money.

When you have passion behind what you're creating, no matter what's motivating that passion, it generally shows.

[UltimateHammerBro]

I'm surprised by how civilised this topic has been so far. I'm also happy to see that this can be discussed acknowledging political correctness while not being constrained by it.

Is Japan an incredibly diverse country? Last I checked it's not full of white males. I don't know about coherent definition, but it's when the fact of diversity takes precedence over story and character and creativity.

I wasn't talking exclusively about Japan, since "forced diversity" usually gets thrown at Western media. Japan has a totally different relationship with racial diversity than America. It's cool when they get a bit more diverse, but outside of gender representation and avoiding really negative stereotypes, I don't really expect their media to have incredibly varied casts. Especially when dominant visuals in anime trend toward racially ambiguous (but definitely lighter-skined) characters in the first place.

The problem with this, IMO, is that there seems to be a trend in the Western world to judge everything as if it were Western (namely, American). I've seen complaints about the lack of diversity in Japanese media which didn't seem or even want to take into account that we're dealing with an entirely different culture.

The main character, Son Goku, is already a mentally challenged minority. I'd argue that would be diverse enough, but then almost everyone in his close circle of friends has some sort of physical abnormality (Kuririn's a little person, Tenshinhan has a third eye, Bulma is a woman, etc.) If anything Dragon Ball is way ahead of the curve on diversity.

Him being a little person is the physical abnormality you mention about Krillin? I thought you'd mention, you know, his lack of a nose

[mecha3000]

I don't get it, so, you like Oob because he's (seemingly) indian? Why is that important to the character?

I don't care about fulfilling some quota, Dragon Ball is perfectly fine being a representation of Toriyama's mind.

First of all, I didn't think this topic would blow up this big in one day (and most of the comments aren't necessarily DB-related!). I really appreciate all of the input from people who are invested in the conversations because it's interesting to see everyone's thoughts.

As for Uub, I do not like him because he's (seemingly) Indian. Or at least, that's not the MAIN reason. The main reason I like Uub is because he's the reincarnation of Z's strongest enemy who becomes Goku's first disciple and the next protector of Earth. As for the Indian thing, it's just a bonus. I admit forced diversity is pointless and annoying and should be kept with Marvel. I agree Toriyama should be allowed to do whatever he wants.

However, it seems that he (or Toei) was involved in the creation of a female Super Saiyan - the series' first. Like someone else pointed out, it may have been Toriyama trolling the fans OR him thinking a female Super Saiyan is cool. Nonetheless, it seems he has brought the series its first canon female Super Saiyan. I don't care what anyone says, this is a milestone for the Dragon Ball franchise. Now, female fans can look at Female Broly and feel like "It's possible for someone other than a man to become Super Saiyan" and feel a little bit more included in the series. I can even imagine younger female fans playing as Female Broly in future video games.

Inclusion for the sake of inclusion SUCKS, for the most part. But DB is not a series that feels the need to include groups. This is why characters like Uub OR Female Broly interest me. They don't need to exist, but they do. This is the part that interests me because it's not about me WANTING DB to add more diverse characters. I just appreciate when it's done. That's why I appreciate it and made this topic: To discuss the interesting range of diversity that existed (Uub) and now exists (Female Broly) in DB.

Long story short, Uub being (seemingly) Indian is not AT ALL important to his character. I just appreciate Toriyama's unconventional choice to portray Goku's disciple as someone who does not exactly resemble the main cast of characters. And unlike Female Broly coming from 2016 Toriyama, this is coming from '90s Toriyama so it's even more appreciated. Diversity in DB is not needed, but it's still nice to see it.

[Hellspawn28]

Changing Thor, a well-established superhero icon, into a woman for seemingly no reason at all is forced diversity.

That's I don't get why is there is so much diversity lately in the last few years. Like 10-15 years ago, no one was like "Hey let's make Thor into a Women" or bullcrap like that. Where the hell did all of it come from?

[Kamiccolo9]

Changing Thor, a well-established superhero icon, into a woman for seemingly no reason at all is forced diversity.

That's I don't get why is there is so much diversity lately in the last few years. Like 10-15 years ago, no one was like "Hey let's make Thor into a Women" or bullcrap like that. Where the hell did all of it come from?

No, but 10 years ago there was a dark-skinned Spider-Man, super-liberal hippie Thor, an American Doctor Doom, etc.

20 years ago there was a latino Spider-Man, a French Batman, an American Thor, and a teenage Iron Man that we all try to forget.

30 years ago, there was a black female Captain Marvel. I could go on and on and on.

These revisions of comic book characters are nothing new. You all are just reinforcing what I've always said about only 1 or so percent of the people on this forum who talk about Marvel actually read the comics.

[Cipher]

These revisions of comic book characters are nothing new. You all are just reinforcing what I've always said about only 1 or so percent of the people on this forum who talk about Marvel actually read the comics.

I used to be an active DC reader and have nearly the entire Claremont X-Men run sitting on a shelf at the 'rents' with a handful of other Marvel books. So let me establish that actual nerd cred can go right alongside an insidious SJW agenda.

[Kamiccolo9]

These revisions of comic book characters are nothing new. You all are just reinforcing what I've always said about only 1 or so percent of the people on this forum who talk about Marvel actually read the comics.

I used to be an active DC reader and have nearly the entire Claremont X-Men run sitting on a shelf at the 'rents' with a handful of other Marvel books. So let me establish that actual nerd cred can go right alongside an insidious SJW agenda.

Funny you bring up Claremont. He had one of the longest-ever runs writing comics, and made X-Men mainstream with probably the most diverse super hero team of the 20th century. Under Claremont, you had a team consisting of people of Canadian, Russian, Scottish, German, Native American, and Japanese nationality, being led by an African princess. In the 70's.

That insidious pandering.

[Cipher]

That insidious pandering.

I just don't understand why Claremont needed to check so many boxes!

Couldn't he tell a normal superhero story about white characters from similar backgrounds?

[Kamiccolo9]

That insidious pandering.

I just don't understand why Claremont needs to check so many boxes!

Couldn't he just tell a normal superhero story about white characters from similar backgrounds?

Stan Lee did. X-Men volume 1 bombed hard. Turns out reading about a bunch of affluent white people can be kinda dull.