DB/Fiction's Handling of Diversity

[rereboy]

That's obviously not what I'm talking about.

Yes it is. There are many religious people who would not consider even for a moment that such move would be making a political statement, they would just do what feels natural and "perfectly logical" for them. Just as in case they decided to write comics for living and all their character would 'naturally' proclaim the appointement of God as the official government of the country in the fiction. Uncouncious, yet still a political statement.

Willingly and actively trying change how the political system of a country works, namely the presidency, is a political action and statement, whether that person wants to classify it as political or not. It's factually political. Just like a person is factually walking on a round planet even if they say that they are walking in a flat planet.

[Doctor.]

There's about 70 million reasons why playing it safe may be bad in various industries, fields, branches of science and life in general. In case of casting? If a Hollywood producer only auditions white actors for a role that was written in a way that it could be played by any race (or even gender) in a blockbuster movie, then playing it safe limits the potential pool of good candidates (maybe a black actor who would otherwise came for the audition turn out to be the best fit for the role but never gonna know if the casting call is only open for white actors), makes the issue of white actors dominating popular entertainment even worse etc.

That's discrimination, not playing it safe. And that doesn't happen, if an audition is for white males only it's because in the creator's vision the character is a white male. Nobody is turning down black actors just because they're black.

[Basaku]

And it's not the show's job to put diversity above casting the right people for their roles. Sure, the city is diverse, but it's not equally diverse. You're going to get a different mix in Harlem than you are in the West Village. And it should be noted that the creators of the show were a Jewish woman and a gay male who lived in NYC.

And are you implying that gay man had full artistic freedom in 1994 to make half the Friends cast gay if he just so felt like?

financial gain is the primary motivation

I caught it before the edit Yes it is the primary motivation in many cases like this, and it has a history and reasons. Comes down again to unwillingness to think about the history & whys. Particularly history of US, how it shaped its art and popular entertainment and in turn the world thanks to economic influence and spread of american art & entertainment.

And that doesn't happen

Of course it has been happening, thankfully less and less as time goes but to completly deny is well, that's just denying history & reality. Same thing again, a lot of people in this topic prefer to think no discrimination & exclusion ever happened in arts & entertainment and the situation where white straight males overwhelmingly dominate is a resut of an accident or just random interests of the creators, exclusively without any bad intentions and thus should never be questioned or challenged.

[JulieYBM]

What does any of this have to do with Dragon Ball anymore? We've already established that the 'lack of diversity' in Dragon Ball is based primarily on that fact that's it's written by a unique fellow from a nation that is already primarily made up of a single people...what the hell is there left to establish and learn that relates to the creation of Dragon Ball?

[VegettoEX]

Agreed. Dragon Ball or bust from here on out again.

[ABED]

I don't think you need that many shows or movies making this an issue to make positive change. I believe there's value in young minority children being able to see fiction examples of people that look like them doing great things, as I think there's value in seeing other cultures portrayed in art, but one of my issues is I think many believe that unchosen characteristics like race, sex, economic class plays a much more important role in people's thinking than it truly does, so they place emphasis on it. With Buffy, there was a dearth of shows built around strong female characters, so it was fresh, but it was fundamentally about characters and story. However, I'm ambivalent about the lesbian relationships on the show. Clearly it was a political statement and I came to like Tara eventually, but I'll always prefer Willow with Oz. That felt more natural than Willow with Tara and certainly more natural than her relationship with Kennedy. To bring it around to DB, if Toriyama doesn't like writing romance, he shouldn't write romance to appeal to a demographic that does. I'm sure there's a demographic that would like more black characters or gay characters in DB, but if he's not comfortable or good at writing gay characters, then I'd rather he didn't.

And are you implying that gay man had full artistic freedom in 1994 to make half the Friends cast gay if he just so felt like?

No, just that he told the story he wanted to tell for 10 years. There were gay characters in the show, but the show wasn't about that. It was what it was - entertaining. THat's the primary purpose of art. Everything else is secondary.

What does any of this have to do with Dragon Ball anymore? We've already established that the 'lack of diversity' in Dragon Ball is based primarily on that fact that's it's written by a unique fellow from a nation that is already primarily made up of a single people...what the hell is there left to establish and learn that relates to the creation of Dragon Ball?

He makes a good point.

[Basaku]

What does any of this have to do with Dragon Ball anymore? We've already established that the 'lack of diversity' in Dragon Ball is based primarily on that fact that's it's written by a unique fellow from a nation that is already primarily made up of a single people...what the hell is there left to establish and learn that relates to the creation of Dragon Ball?

We've also established that this unique fellow had vast knowledge and interest beyond his own local culture and that other authors from that nation made up of "single people" had no issues with having more diverse characters at the same time as Toriyama was creating. We've also established that in 2017 Toriyama is adding female SSJ warrior to his franchise. Regardless of how anyone feels about the past of the franchise and/or Toriyama and/or Japan in general and/or world in general, I fail to see logical reason why anyone would be irked by the addition of the new female SSJ other than being too accustomed to male dominance in art & entertainment.

[ABED]

I fail to see logical reason why anyone would be irked by the addition of the new female SSJ other than being too accustomed to male dominance in art & entertainment.

I think it's perfectly logical to not take a male character and repackage them as female in order to take advantage of the male characters popularity. Create a completely new female character. There was no reason why Whis had to be male. Had he been, I wouldn't have cared as long as she was interesting, which I found Whis to be regardless of sex.

[Doctor.]

I fail to see logical reason why anyone would be irked by the addition of the new female SSJ other than being too accustomed to male dominance in art & entertainment.

I've seen nobody complaining.

Complaints come from the fact that she's a Broly-like character, not that she's a female Super Saiyan.

[Basaku]

but one of my issues is I think many believe that unchosen characteristics like race, sex, economic class plays a much more important role in people's thinking than it truly does, so they place emphasis on it.

They play an important role in quite a few people's thinking which was reflected in history, unfortunately with disastrous results sometimes. Within the past century, basically since women sufferage movement, a TON has been accomplished, but effects of negative policies, culture traits and views did not disappear completly and are still felt in many ways. But even little things like first female SSJ in Dragon Ball universe all add up.

To bring it around to DB, if Toriyama doesn't like writing romance, he shouldn't write romance to appeal to a demographic that does. I'm sure there's a demographic that would like more black characters or gay characters in DB, but if he's not comfortable or good at writing gay characters, then I'd rather he didn't.

Of course he shouldn't write much romance if he doesn't feel like, but he did write romantical elements and some of them were even plot-critical (Krillin/18 in Cell saga). Writing a gay character for Dragon Ball would require no more 'romantical' subplots than any straight character recieved in the franchise. Bra is walking down the street with her girlfriend, monster attacks, cue 50 episodes of fighting, done. Lesbian character written. It doesn't have to be Oscar lesbian drama writing where we follow Bra's pondering about her lesbianism for 20 episodes, it's not the point of it. Especially when in the past the franchise used LGBT traits exclusively in idiotic punchline context. For Dragon Ball in particular, the bar for an improvement is set really low in this case and requires very little mental effort to put it bluntly.

[ABED]

A better way of putting it is that it doesn't axiomatically determine your thinking. Race and sex do play a role but they don't determine it. It's one factor of many. The first female Super Saiyan can help add up, but does it have to be a gender swap of another famous character. I'm not sure it does any good if the character is terrible. I like Bulma and think making her more integral to the story is better idea. She's an original character, also one that's been there from the start, and I think that would be more progressive than a gender swap. I think she's a beloved character and she's a tech wiz. She's a fleshed out character and I think that will reach more people than making Broly a woman.

Of course he shouldn't write much romance if he doesn't feel like, but he did write romantical elements and some of them were even plot-critical (Krillin/18 in Cell saga).

Plot critical, yes, but it was a dynamic that worked. There's an odd chemistry there that justifies it more than just "hey I need this so the plot works".

Especially when in the past the franchise used LGBT traits exclusively in idiotic punchline context.

Which is why I'm uncomfortable with him adding any more of those elements.

[Basaku]

The first female Super Saiyan can help add up, but does it have to be a gender swap of another famous character.

Not a fan of it either mostly because I despise Broly's design, but it the story context requires it (LSSJ form) then there's not much they can do, as in they have to make her bulky, white eyes etc. Still the hair should be different, this franchise already suffers from characters looking too similar in many cases.

I'm not sure it does any good if the character is terrible. I like Bulma and think making her more integral to the story is better idea. She's an original character, also one that's been there from the start, and I think that would be more progressive than a gender swap.

But she's not a fighter. There's a place for her and a female fighter, especially coming from a warrior race that's been central to the whole story for 3 decades now.

Which is why I'm uncomfortable with him adding any more of those elements.

I'm far more uncomfortable with forever leaving it as the only examples of LGBT inclusion in the saga. Besides, it's been many years since. I would like to think he grew up a bit in this regard

[ABED]

The first female Super Saiyan can help add up, but does it have to be a gender swap of another famous character.

Not a fan of it either mostly because I despise Broly's design, but it the story context requires it (LSSJ form) then there's not much they can do, as in they have to make her bulky, white eyes etc. Still the hair should be different, this franchise already suffers from characters looking too similar in many cases.

I'm not sure it does any good if the character is terrible. I like Bulma and think making her more integral to the story is better idea. She's an original character, also one that's been there from the start, and I think that would be more progressive than a gender swap.

But she's not a fighter. There's a place for her and a female fighter, especially coming from a warrior race that's been central to the whole story for 3 decades now.

Which is why I'm uncomfortable with him adding any more of those elements.

I'm far more uncomfortable with forever leaving it as the only examples of LGBT inclusion in the saga. Besides, it's been many years since. I would like to think he grew up a bit in this regard

You think the characters look too similar? I've never had a problem telling them apart.

Fair point, but I don't think it's good for the story to just take a character that was popular and change him into something else. It's not progressive. I think you might get a bigger backlash than if you created something from scratch. It's not even the case where Broly is canon so he has a doppelganger that's female. That I wouldn't have a problem with.

I get your final point. I'm not sure he has or if I want to find out. Thankfully the gay characters in DB were minor.

[Basaku]

Fair point, but I don't think it's good for the story to just take a character that was popular and change him into something else. It's not progressive. I think you might get a bigger backlash than if you created something from scratch. It's not even the case where Broly is canon so he has a doppelganger that's female. That I wouldn't have a problem with.

I don't even think they tried to be progressive here, I suspect it was simply a matter of thinking how to incorporate popular transformation (because lets be honest, the CHARACTER of Broly ain't the one that's popular lol) and gender swap is just ridiculousy easy to make it different and act like it's totally not that un-canon other character and at the same time benefit from recanonizing popular design.

Regardless of motivations, glad she's making her way in, female Saiyan presence was always missing for me in DB

[Draconic]

Dragon Ball manages to do good by everybody, in the sense that every race, sex or orientation is shown to be assholes. There doesn't seem to be any real discrimination in the series. If anything, it can sometimes fall into the stereotype trap, since the creator is a pretty anti-social guy, so besides what he saw in foreign movies he didn't really have that much interaction with the whole wide world.
Even so, however, Toriyama keeps outright offensive stuff out of the series. Besides Mr Popo I really can't think of any big issues anyone could have with Dragon Ball and even that is just overreaction by people who probably never watched the show or read the series anyway. Maybe the General Blue thing in the anime? I don't find that very offensive either, especially in a 80's Japanese show. This is the same country that holds lolicon comics at the disposal of anyone who wants it, so it's a culture thing. But that's a disscusion in and of itself.
The manga also manages to be quite diverse too. The Saiyans are all "Japanese", most of the humans are "Chinese", Bulma is almost certainly white and besides those you have aliens or animal people who don't really count. Early in the series especially, when the world was being explored, pretty much everybody got represented.

Forcing diversity in media has sadly spread out like a plague in pop culture lately, so I am happy Dragon Ball is a Japanese show and I don't have to worry about that with it. I mean, just imagine if Chi-Chi took Goku's Gi and started calling herself Son Goku, like what happened with Thor. I literally can't read comics or watch any blockbuster movie anymore without somekind of poorly written liberal message being shoved down my throat. I understand the sentiment and don't oppose any of it and that's the opinion of the majority. But this is getting out of hand already. Just pray this non-issue doesn't find it's way into Dragon Ball. Writers create story based on what they are familiar with, so of course most western media will be made up by whites, just like oriental media is made up by asians and indians and whatnot. Really, when you take a look at it globally, the diversity problem doesn't exist.

I don't expect Dragon Ball to change anytime soon, unless a huge shift in Japanese culture happens and that doesn't seem to be on the way. And it is for the better. The show is already appealing to a lot of people and while it is a diverse show, that doesn't have anything to do with it.

[ABED]

Fair point, but I don't think it's good for the story to just take a character that was popular and change him into something else. It's not progressive. I think you might get a bigger backlash than if you created something from scratch. It's not even the case where Broly is canon so he has a doppelganger that's female. That I wouldn't have a problem with.

I don't even think they tried to be progressive here, I suspect it was simply a matter of thinking how to incorporate popular transformation (because lets be honest, the CHARACTER of Broly ain't the one that's popular lol) and gender swap is just ridiculousy easy to make it different and act like it's totally not that un-canon other character and at the same time benefit from recanonizing popular design.

Regardless of motivations, glad she's making her way in, female Saiyan presence was always missing for me in DB

It wasn't just the design, Broly was a wrecking machine and people like badasses. Taking a popular design and putting it on another character won't mean the same thing. There are intangibles to Broly's popularity.

Pan's a female Saiyan and motivation of the creator has some bearing to me if it affects the execution.

[VegettoEX]

Really, when you take a look at it globally, the diversity problem doesn't exist.

I... don't... what? How? What? How? What?

A lack of diverse cultural understanding, appreciation, respect, and compassion is literally the underlying issue with the vast majority of our global problems.

This is getting beyond Dragon Ball again, and I'm starting to see very dangerous "opinions" being spread.

[rereboy]

Usually people don't like things that they feel are being (somewhat) forced on them, even when they kind of agree with the underlying principles behind it.

[sintzu]

I'm starting to see very dangerous "opinions" being spread.

It's a very controversial topic so it isn't going to be talked about without some unpopular opinions.

My opinion is that politics don't have a place in a show like DB, some might agree, some might not agree and just leave it at that and some might say it's an offensive opinion and it shouldn't be said. so how good or bad an opinion is depends on the person reading it.

I don't think what Draconic said is a bad thing because it's right in certain countries. Japan and Iceland for example don't have the same amount of divers people living in their countries that America does so they don't have a problem with diversity.

You might take what I said as just a piece of information and a harmless opinion while another person might say I'm racist.

[VegettoEX]

Japan and Iceland for example don't have the same amount of divers people living in their countries so they don't have a problem with diversity.

They absolutely do and for precisely those very underlying reasons. This is what leads to gross stereotype portrayals in the media. Even within the "same" "race" there is jack shit LGBT protection in Japan.

C'mon, y'all, I expect a better global understanding from our actual global folks!