Character Growth/Development vs Out of Character

[LuckyCat]

It also kind of annoyed me that piccolo was chastising Goku for letting Gohan fight even though Piccolo knows Gohan's potential and willingness to fight when necessary.

Piccolo was chastising Goku for making Gohan fight without explaining his plan and while Goku was around to help. Also, any personality changes in Piccolo compared to Freeza or Saiyan saga could easily be attributed to his fusion with Kami, and not considered out of character.

[kinisking]

It also kind of annoyed me that piccolo was chastising Goku for letting Gohan fight even though Piccolo knows Gohan's potential and willingness to fight when necessary.

Piccolo was chastising Goku for making Gohan fight without explaining his plan and while Goku was around to help. Also, any personality changes in Piccolo compared to Freeza or Saiyan saga could easily be attributed to his fusion with Kami, and not considered out of character.

Didn't kami say that Piccolo wouldn't change?

[LuckyCat]

Didn't kami say that Piccolo wouldn't change?

It sounds like you're confusing Kami with Nail. After Piccolo fuses with Kami he literally says "I am no longer Kami or Piccolo".

[ABED]

Didn't kami say that Piccolo wouldn't change?

It sounds like you're confusing Kami with Nail. After Piccolo fuses with Kami he literally says "I am no longer Kami or Piccolo".

And after Goku calls him Kamicollo, doesn't he say to just call him Piccolo since that is who was the base?

[LuckyCat]

And after Goku calls him Kamicollo, doesn't he say to just call him Piccolo since that is who was the base?

He says he's "mostly Piccolo" so just call him that. But he's still part Kami, and the story reminds us that at times like when Piccolo outwits Cell or when Piccolo recalls Goku's training with Kami, or when Piccolo realizes what Kaioshin is.

[ABED]

And after Goku calls him Kamicollo, doesn't he say to just call him Piccolo since that is who was the base?

He says he's "mostly Piccolo" so just call him that. But he's still part Kami, and the story reminds us that at times like when Piccolo outwits Cell or when Piccolo recalls Goku's training with Kami, or when Piccolo realizes what Kaioshin is.

Thanks, I was in the ballpark. Kami's in there to share his wisdom and memories, but him outwitting Cell was perfectly within Piccolo's ability before the reunion.

[LuckyCat]

outwitting Cell was perfectly within Piccolo's ability before the reunion.

I can agree with that, but this is one instance where Piccolo explicitly states that it was "Kami's Wisdom" that helped him formulate his possum strategy.

[ABED]

outwitting Cell was perfectly within Piccolo's ability before the reunion.

I can agree with that, but this is one instance where Piccolo explicitly states that it was "Kami's Wisdom" that helped him formulate his lame duck strategy.

I remember that after you said it, but to me it just seems odd. I can see why Toriyama wrote it, but it doesn't seem like something Piccolo would've needed Kami to think of.

[DBZAOTA482]

Krillin not shutting down #18 and Vegeta allowing Cell to absorb #18 still makes zero sense, after all these years. This case is especially jarring because he's know to be very pragmatic and actually quite good in his decision making during critical times. Remember when he was about to kill Vegeta when he was weak and couldn't defend himself in the Saiyan arc and prevent him from coming back to harm Earth? The exact polar opposite happened in Cell arc with him not shutting down #18 when he knew very well what the stakes were and would happen if Cell absorbed #18. He literally put the world in grave danger for one woman he had the hots for. I mean, did it not cross his mind that once 18 is blown up, they could simply bring her back to life? Quite frankly, that was an incredibly OOC moment from Krillin, as he really should know better.

Yes because killing a mostly innocent teenage girl is the same as killing a genocidal space pirate.

And Vegeta letting Cell absorb #18... we're talking about the same guy who goaded both Zarbon and Freeza into transforming.Vegeta's not above letting his arrogance get the better of him in epic proportions especially with Cell egging him on like a drug dealer.

[Doctor.]

What sparked this idea was in the recent episode of Super, in the midst of his training with Whis, Vegeta asked if he could be cut some slack just so he can go snoop on Goku and see what he's been up to? .. Now before I run off and say that wasn't standard Vegeta MO, I gave it a second though and considered that maybe, his character had grown so much that while yes even though Goku is his main rival, that he would opt to put his training on hold or not go as hard if it was important enough? Though now that I think about it.. His reasoning for wanting to pause on the training had everything to do with Goku so the stars may still align.

Plenty of people misinterpreted this scene for some reason, just as they misinterpreted the scene in #16 where Whis says he'll train Vegeta if he becomes a God of Destruction. Vegeta, in episode #71 or #72 I can't recall correctly right now, was under the impression that Goku was receiving extra special training from Whis, as he asked him for Goku's location. And thus, he wished to stop his basic training regime as fast as possible so he could engage in the same kind of training he thought Goku was doing and catch up to him as soon as possible. This is completely in-character.

[ekrolo2]

Krillin not shutting down #18 and Vegeta allowing Cell to absorb #18 still makes zero sense, after all these years. This case is especially jarring because he's know to be very pragmatic and actually quite good in his decision making during critical times. Remember when he was about to kill Vegeta when he was weak and couldn't defend himself in the Saiyan arc and prevent him from coming back to harm Earth? The exact polar opposite happened in Cell arc with him not shutting down #18 when he knew very well what the stakes were and would happen if Cell absorbed #18. He literally put the world in grave danger for one woman he had the hots for. I mean, did it not cross his mind that once 18 is blown up, they could simply bring her back to life? Quite frankly, that was an incredibly OOC moment from Krillin, as he really should know better.

Yes because killing a mostly innocent teenage girl is the same as killing a genocidal space pirate.

And Vegeta letting Cell absorb #18... we're talking about the same guy who goaded both Zarbon and Freeza into transforming.Vegeta's not above letting his arrogance get the better of him in epic proportions especially with Cell egging him on like a drug dealer.

If the series played it up less as Krillin wanting to kill his potentially hot girlfriend and more of him not wanting to kill an innocent person, that'd be fine, it doesn't go like that. Krillin is just fine with letting her live because he's got a crush on her because... she and her brother beat the shit out of all his friends and want to murder his best friend. Oh, and she and her brother DID actually murder him and almost everyone he knows and cares about in the future, fucking sound logic right there.

As for Freeza, Vegeta's move only looks dumb in hindsight but when he makes the choice, he doesn't know about Freeza's multiple forms or that the last one has even more power in the tank. Unlike Cell, Freeza can transform at will, so if Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin actually manage to back Freeza into a corner, he'll transform and have an even easier time killing them since they're more tired from a long, protracted fight.

[Doctor.]

Yeah, I can't defend Kuririn on that one. At best, he'd deactivate her and could activate her again once the whole thing blows over. At worst, she dies and they can easily revive her with the Dragon Balls (which no longer existed at this point, but I'm certain he had no idea of this until Goku pointed it out when he exited the ROSAT). She probably wouldn't fall in love with him, but that's a small price to pay for everyone's safety. He was being incredibly dumb and incredibly selfish.

[Cipher]

I fail to see how Kuririn's reluctance to not kill a (more or less) innocent woman in cold blood is a mark against his character or inconsistent with any facet of his personality. The last thing she did was spare all their lives. The entire situation would be fine if Vegeta had everyone's best interests at heart too.

Vegeta letting Cell go to absorb #18 is unconscionable, but also in character given Cell's goading and the roller coaster his fragile ego gets put on that arc.

[ABED]

If the series played it up less as Krillin wanting to kill his potentially hot girlfriend and more of him not wanting to kill an innocent person, that'd be fine, it doesn't go like that. Krillin is just fine with letting her live because he's got a crush on her because... she and her brother beat the shit out of all his friends and want to murder his best friend. Oh, and she and her brother DID actually murder him and almost everyone he knows and cares about in the future, fucking sound logic right there.

1 - The 17 and 18 weren't at all like the cyborgs that killed them in Trunks' timeline
2 - 18 didn't pick the fight
3 - Kuririn isn't all "just fine". He's confused and conflicted.

[Doctor.]

I fail to see how Kuririn's reluctance to not kill a (more or less) innocent woman in cold blood is a mark against his character or inconsistent with any facet of his personality. The last thing she did was spare all their lives. The entire situation would have been fine if Vegeta had everyone's best interests at heart.

It's not the fact that it's out of character, it's that he's not punished for the stupid decision. Vegeta gets his comeuppance and his pride shattered by the end of the arc, Kuririn... gets laid. Sure, Cell achieved his perfect form and Kuririn got his neck broken, but beyond that, did any character say that he fucked up?

[Cipher]

It's not the fact that it's out of character, it's that he's not punished for the stupid decision. Vegeta gets his comeuppance and his pride shattered by the end of the arc, Kuririn... gets laid. Sure, Cell achieved his perfect form and Kuririn got his neck broken, but beyond that, did any character say that he fucked up?

I think they'd come across fairly cruelly for criticizing Kuririn's belabored decision to not kill an innocent when everything should have been fine. As would the story for meeting out any kind of cosmic justice for that. I think as far as the moral universe of Dragon Ball is concerned, Kuririn does the right thing.

No one ever takes Goku to task for any of the reckless things he does with far less moral ground to stand on. Nor does the story, in many cases.

Vegeta gets his comeuppance because he's the one who makes a truly reckless, immoral decision. It's beyond even what Goku would do, as it involves the immediate sacrifice of another person. He also has to fight his own, more altruistic son off to do it.

In the moral universe of Dragon Ball, the following two things are always okay:

1) Protecting innocent people, even if it comes at some cost

2) Making dubious choices for the thrill of a fight so long as it does not immediately harm others (and I mean like immediately, because otherwise lol whatever as long as it works out okay in the end)

Kuririn fits comfortably within the first category. Vegeta violates the second.

[ekrolo2]

If the series played it up less as Krillin wanting to kill his potentially hot girlfriend and more of him not wanting to kill an innocent person, that'd be fine, it doesn't go like that. Krillin is just fine with letting her live because he's got a crush on her because... she and her brother beat the shit out of all his friends and want to murder his best friend. Oh, and she and her brother DID actually murder him and almost everyone he knows and cares about in the future, fucking sound logic right there.

1 - The 17 and 18 weren't at all like the cyborgs that killed them in Trunks' timeline
2 - 18 didn't pick the fight
3 - Kuririn isn't all "just fine". He's confused and conflicted.

Krillin knows they've got the capacity of mass murderers and their first meeting included 17 and 18 beating the shit out of everyone he knows before moving away to hunt down and kill Goku. That's the reason they're at Kame House at all: find answers concerning Goku's whereabouts so they can kill him.

He's conflicted about the wrong things, its not "is it okay for me to kill an innocent girl to save the planet!" and more "If I kill this hot chick, I'll never get laid again!".

And as Doctor pointed out, Krillin doesn't suffer any real punishment for it either. Vegeta letting Cell go causes him to get his pride to get smashed, his son to die and his target (Goku) to die, leaving him pretty beaten down by the end. Goku gets chewed out by Piccolo for throwing Gohan to the sharks then dies at the end because he didn't end this bullshit when he could've by killing Gero 3 years prior. Gohan loses his dad because he let his Saiyan instincts go overboard, what does Krillin lose? If anything, him sparring 18 in the long term gives him a bigger chance to get laid.

[Cipher]

Idk, I'm really uncomfortable with this whole, "Fuck Kuririn for not being okay with murder" thing. Dude even feels bad about it afterward, and Goku tells him he has nothing to apologize for. I feel like any complaints should be put to rest by that scene.

[Doctor.]

It's not really murder though. He's deactivating her, he can activate her again. Even if it were, if it's for the greater good, why not? They have Dragon Balls, it's the entire reason Piccolo suggested to Super Boo to kill the remaining humans.

[ekrolo2]

Idk, I'm really uncomfortable with this whole, "Fuck Kuririn for not being okay with murder" thing. Dude even feels bad about it afterward, and Goku tells him he has nothing to apologize for. I feel like any complaints should be put to rest by that scene.

It's not a question of being okay with murder for me, it's why he does it. The story doesn't present him as sparring an innocent girl but because he wants to get laid. There's also the fact the scene could've easily been avoided by having Krillin hesitate with the choice, Cell spotting him and using this opportunity to remove a potential setback. With a small rewrite, the scene has the same effect but considerably less stupid.