Character Growth/Development vs Out of Character

[Cipher]

It's not really murder though. He's deactivating her, he can activate her again. Even if it were, if it's for the greater good, why not? They have Dragon Balls, it's the entire reason Piccolo suggested to Super Boo to kill the remaining humans.

The story never presents that as an option; he'd still have to flee the islands with her somehow. The task he's given and is contemplating is deactivating then immediately killing her.

The Dragon Balls acting as a safety net for sacrificing others doesn't really come up until the Boo arc. I doubt he'd be able to convince anyone to revive #18 either. I think it's believable it wouldn't be on his mind.

It's not a question of being okay with murder for me, it's why he does it. The story doesn't present him as sparring an innocent girl but because he wants to get laid. There's also the fact the scene could've easily been avoided by having Krillin hesitate with the choice, Cell spotting him and using this opportunity to remove a potential setback. With a small rewrite, the scene has the same effect but considerably less stupid.

I've always read around his most obviously presented motivation a bit/attached some of the moral consequence that would exist in that actual scenario, especially with God pointing out earlier that the androids didn't provoke their first fight. I agree it could have been better portrayed.

Would simply having him hesitate until Cell spots them have been better writing, using circumstance to elimate the weight of Kuririn making a choice? You gotta push those characters.

[ekrolo2]

I've always read around his most obviously presented motivation a bit/attached a bit of the moral consequence that would exist in that actual scenario, especially with God pointing out earlier that the androids didn't provoke their first fight. I agree it could have been better portrayed.

Would simply having him hesitate until Cell spots them have been better writing, using circumstance to elimate the weight of Kuririn making a choice? You gotta push those characters.

The risk of undermining Krillin's choice for a bit more consistency is a factor yes, but if you had Krillin hesitate with the choice, truly weigh all his options, I think you're doing a good enough job of showing his struggle even if Cell takes advantage of his lack of ruthlessness to eliminate a potential setback. If Krillin just showed up and Cell no sold him immediately, it would undermine everything but the two can work together with proper care.

[Tonifranz]

As for Krillin...

Maybe not an OOC moment.

Maybe because he's in love, and love makes you do stupid irrational things? How many people do things that they wouldn't normally do because of it? History is full of examples of people throwing away everything because of love. Does it make people suddenly OOC?

It's not OOC. It's just normal human nature.

[DBZAOTA482]

If the series played it up less as Krillin wanting to kill his potentially hot girlfriend and more of him not wanting to kill an innocent person, that'd be fine, it doesn't go like that. Krillin is just fine with letting her live because he's got a crush on her because... she and her brother beat the shit out of all his friends and want to murder his best friend. Oh, and she and her brother DID actually murder him and almost everyone he knows and cares about in the future, fucking sound logic right there.

1 - The 17 and 18 weren't at all like the cyborgs that killed them in Trunks' timeline
2 - 18 didn't pick the fight
3 - Kuririn isn't all "just fine". He's confused and conflicted.

Krillin knows they've got the capacity of mass murderers and their first meeting included 17 and 18 beating the shit out of everyone he knows before moving away to hunt down and kill Goku. That's the reason they're at Kame House at all: find answers concerning Goku's whereabouts so they can kill him.

He's conflicted about the wrong things, its not "is it okay for me to kill an innocent girl to save the planet!" and more "If I kill this hot chick, I'll never get laid again!".

And as Doctor pointed out, Krillin doesn't suffer any real punishment for it either. Vegeta letting Cell go causes him to get his pride to get smashed, his son to die and his target (Goku) to die, leaving him pretty beaten down by the end. Goku gets chewed out by Piccolo for throwing Gohan to the sharks then dies at the end because he didn't end this bullshit when he could've by killing Gero 3 years prior. Gohan loses his dad because he let his Saiyan instincts go overboard, what does Krillin lose? If anything, him sparring 18 in the long term gives him a bigger chance to get laid.

The androids only beat up the Z-Warriors because they attacked first and only #16 was aiming to kill Goku. #17 and #18 just wanted to fight him because they had nothing else to do.

Krillin also thought #18 would be happier with #17 which shows it has little to do with personal gain.

It's not really murder though. He's deactivating her, he can activate her again. Even if it were, if it's for the greater good, why not? They have Dragon Balls, it's the entire reason Piccolo suggested to Super Boo to kill the remaining humans.

Krillin would have to deactivate #18 then blast her so he would be doing murder. Killing her also wasn't absolute necessity either.

As for Freeza, Vegeta's move only looks dumb in hindsight but when he makes the choice, he doesn't know about Freeza's multiple forms or that the last one has even more power in the tank. Unlike Cell, Freeza can transform at will, so if Vegeta, Gohan, and Krillin actually manage to back Freeza into a corner, he'll transform and have an even easier time killing them since they're more tired from a long, protracted fight.

Even at his first form, Freeza was far and away stronger than Vegeta, Gohan, or Krillin so he had no reason to transform which he only did when he felt threatened. Vegeta also flatout said Freeza wouldn't change much which he already got wrong with Zarbon and babbled about how he was becoming a Super Saiyan. He was being stupid.

[ABED]

If the series played it up less as Krillin wanting to kill his potentially hot girlfriend and more of him not wanting to kill an innocent person, that'd be fine, it doesn't go like that. Krillin is just fine with letting her live because he's got a crush on her because... she and her brother beat the shit out of all his friends and want to murder his best friend. Oh, and she and her brother DID actually murder him and almost everyone he knows and cares about in the future, fucking sound logic right there.

1 - The 17 and 18 weren't at all like the cyborgs that killed them in Trunks' timeline
2 - 18 didn't pick the fight
3 - Kuririn isn't all "just fine". He's confused and conflicted.

Krillin knows they've got the capacity of mass murderers and their first meeting included 17 and 18 beating the shit out of everyone he knows before moving away to hunt down and kill Goku. That's the reason they're at Kame House at all: find answers concerning Goku's whereabouts so they can kill him.

He's conflicted about the wrong things, its not "is it okay for me to kill an innocent girl to save the planet!" and more "If I kill this hot chick, I'll never get laid again!".

And as Doctor pointed out, Krillin doesn't suffer any real punishment for it either. Vegeta letting Cell go causes him to get his pride to get smashed, his son to die and his target (Goku) to die, leaving him pretty beaten down by the end. Goku gets chewed out by Piccolo for throwing Gohan to the sharks then dies at the end because he didn't end this bullshit when he could've by killing Gero 3 years prior. Gohan loses his dad because he let his Saiyan instincts go overboard, what does Krillin lose? If anything, him sparring 18 in the long term gives him a bigger chance to get laid.

Except that they didn't do anything. After his friends taking a beating in a fight that was instigated by Vegeta, and Kuririn walking away unscathed, he has a legitimate question about their character. The only one they are actually after is Goku and that's due to their programming.

You make it seem like he just wants to hook up with a hot girl. That's never been Kuririn. Yes, he likes cute girls, but his number one desire is to be married. It's not about getting his rocks off. That's a complete misreading of the situation and Kuririn's entire character for that matter.

At the end of the day, this is a story. I don't watch it for a ethics lesson. I watch it because I want to see interesting characters in interesting situations. This is an interesting dilemma Kuririn is going through.

[ekrolo2]

Except that they didn't do anything. After his friends taking a beating in a fight that was instigated by Vegeta, and Kuririn walking away unscathed, he has a legitimate question about their character. The only one they are actually after is Goku and that's due to their programming.

You make it seem like he just wants to hook up with a hot girl. That's never been Kuririn. Yes, he likes cute girls, but his number one desire is to be married. It's not about getting his rocks off. That's a complete misreading of the situation and Kuririn's entire character for that matter.

At the end of the day, this is a story. I don't watch it for a ethics lesson. I watch it because I want to see interesting characters in interesting situations. This is an interesting dilemma Kuririn is going through.

Their programming which has to be take into account when judging how good of an idea it is to let them live.

The scene is what's making Krillin seem like he's focusing on his (unbelievable) romantic attraction to 18 to weigh just how worthwhile it is to make her live or not, not me. I know Krillin's got more going on inside his head than that,the scene doesn't convey that at all.

I don't need an ethics lesson either, but if you're gonna have a conflicted scene for a character happen, have it make sense. Either have Krillin actually weight how ethically sound it is to kill 18 or if a romantic angle is the deciding factor, actually develop the romantic angle so I can believable buy that Krillin is willing to put everyone at risk for her. Neither of these are done well and the scene makes him look like a total, Goku tier, selfish prick when I don't even think that's the intention.

It's very much a scene in the same vein as Piccolo sacrificing himself for Gohan (in the manga) or Vegeta freaking out over Cell killing Trunks. None of these three work because the build up to them doesn't actually exist and relies far too much on the reader making stuff up to connect dots the story doesn't.

[ABED]

But it does make sense. It's in character. I get that you want Kuririn to go deeper into the ethics of it, but it is in character for him to be conflicted about his choice about whether the woman attracted to, realistic or not, should be shut off. We know that Kuririn wants nothing more than to get married and this is the first woman that's actually shown him any seemingly romantic affection. These are characters that act based on what they want and how they feel. They're often impetuous and more than a little reckless. I've never had a problem believing Kuririn would be someone who could do what he did.

I get the point about Piccolo and yeah, it wasn't as fleshed out, but it did make sense. It's simply an issue of the intended emotional impact didn't land because not enough time had been spent building the bond between Piccolo and Gohan. However, as you said, there's at least enough that the audience can connect the dots and it doesn't feel out of character.

[Kanassa]

Idk, I'm really uncomfortable with this whole, "Fuck Kuririn for not being okay with murder" thing. Dude even feels bad about it afterward, and Goku tells him he has nothing to apologize for. I feel like any complaints should be put to rest by that scene.

It's not a question of being okay with murder for me, it's why he does it. The story doesn't present him as sparring an innocent girl but because he wants to get laid. There's also the fact the scene could've easily been avoided by having Krillin hesitate with the choice, Cell spotting him and using this opportunity to remove a potential setback. With a small rewrite, the scene has the same effect but considerably less stupid.

This scene would of been fine if Krillin had much more reason to think of the Androids as more innocent. If you look on the situation from his eyes, what does he know? He has knowledge that in the future these Androids will gleefully slaughter most of the planet's population, including his friends. The only hint he has that they might not do that now is that they don't kill everyone back at that first fight, and even then Trunks implies that they start the bloodbath only after Goku is dead. Krillin should have had more time to witness that the androids were becoming better people and not the psychopaths of Trunks's future. Then have his inner monologue talk about those moments that convince him that 18 is an innocent person. While I'd disagree that dooming a planet to save one person is a bad decision, there wouldn't be any bullshit piling up int he scene.

[kinisking]

Except that they didn't do anything. After his friends taking a beating in a fight that was instigated by Vegeta, and Kuririn walking away unscathed, he has a legitimate question about their character. The only one they are actually after is Goku and that's due to their programming.

You make it seem like he just wants to hook up with a hot girl. That's never been Kuririn. Yes, he likes cute girls, but his number one desire is to be married. It's not about getting his rocks off. That's a complete misreading of the situation and Kuririn's entire character for that matter.

At the end of the day, this is a story. I don't watch it for a ethics lesson. I watch it because I want to see interesting characters in interesting situations. This is an interesting dilemma Kuririn is going through.

Their programming which has to be take into account when judging how good of an idea it is to let them live.

The scene is what's making Krillin seem like he's focusing on his (unbelievable) romantic attraction to 18 to weigh just how worthwhile it is to make her live or not, not me. I know Krillin's got more going on inside his head than that,the scene doesn't convey that at all.

I don't need an ethics lesson either, but if you're gonna have a conflicted scene for a character happen, have it make sense. Either have Krillin actually weight how ethically sound it is to kill 18 or if a romantic angle is the deciding factor, actually develop the romantic angle so I can believable buy that Krillin is willing to put everyone at risk for her. Neither of these are done well and the scene makes him look like a total, Goku tier, selfish prick when I don't even think that's the intention.

It's very much a scene in the same vein as Piccolo sacrificing himself for Gohan (in the manga) or Vegeta freaking out over Cell killing Trunks. None of these three work because the build up to them doesn't actually exist and relies far too much on the reader making stuff up to connect dots the story doesn't.

I think the relationship between Piccolo and Gohan was done decently. I would have agreed with you if it weren't for the moment when Gohan says Piccolo's not as bad as he used to be. I think that's the moment where Piccolo truly starts caring about Gohan and ties in well for his motivations during the sacrifice. It could have been done better, but I think the build up is there.

[ekrolo2]

I think the relationship between Piccolo and Gohan was done decently. I would have agreed with you if it weren't for the moment when Gohan says Piccolo's not as bad as he used to be. I think that's the moment where Piccolo truly starts caring about Gohan and ties in well for his motivations during the sacrifice. It could have been done better, but I think the build up is there.

I think the anime executes both of them a lot better than the manga. Especially Gohan & Piccolo. Trunks and Vegeta doesn't quite get as built up but Vegeta lying in the ocean and admitting he feels pride for Trunks standing up to him is a lot better than him complaining Trunks attacked him like the manga.

[kinisking]

I think the relationship between Piccolo and Gohan was done decently. I would have agreed with you if it weren't for the moment when Gohan says Piccolo's not as bad as he used to be. I think that's the moment where Piccolo truly starts caring about Gohan and ties in well for his motivations during the sacrifice. It could have been done better, but I think the build up is there.

I think the anime executes both of them a lot better than the manga. Especially Gohan & Piccolo. Trunks and Vegeta doesn't quite get as built up but Vegeta lying in the ocean and admitting he feels pride for Trunks standing up to him is a lot better than him complaining Trunks attacked him like the manga.

I haven't watched the anime part of the saiyan arc in a while so I'll take your word for it.

I'll admit the Vegeta and Trunks moment had absolutely no buildup. I actually did rewatch this scene not long ago. Was the moment where he gets angry at treating Trunks like trash in the manga also? If so, I guess that's not too bad. It seemed like the point of the scene was to show that Vegeta had feelings even he didn't know he had.

[Cipher]

This scene would of been fine if Krillin had much more reason to think of the Androids as more innocent. If you look on the situation from his eyes, what does he know? He has knowledge that in the future these Androids will gleefully slaughter most of the planet's population, including his friends. The only hint he has that they might not do that now is that they don't kill everyone back at that first fight, and even then Trunks implies that they start the bloodbath only after Goku is dead. Krillin should have had more time to witness that the androids were becoming better people and not the psychopaths of Trunks's future. Then have his inner monologue talk about those moments that convince him that 18 is an innocent person. While I'd disagree that dooming a planet to save one person is a bad decision, there wouldn't be any bullshit piling up int he scene.

That's all assuming that Kuririn would be okay with taking her out in cold blood until given a reason otherwise. I'd argue the opposite; it's something Kuririn would inherently not be behind, and nothing that has happened to that point is enough to sway him. He even voices doubts to Trunks earlier. God voices the same to Piccolo.

[ekrolo2]

I haven't watched the anime part of the saiyan arc in a while so I'll take your word for it.

I'll admit the Vegeta and Trunks moment had absolutely no buildup. I actually did rewatch this scene not long ago. Was the moment where he gets angry at treating Trunks like trash in the manga also? If so, I guess that's not too bad. It seemed like the point of the scene was to show that Vegeta had feelings even he didn't know he had.

The manga plays it up more as a sudden realization but there is nothing that even kind of implies he even respects Trunks the way the anime did. Conversely, the anime also botches that scene because you've got Vegeta going on a tirade about Goku dying stronger than him so somewhere in-between these two, a perfect version exists. I don't know how Kai did it.

[kinisking]

I haven't watched the anime part of the saiyan arc in a while so I'll take your word for it.

I'll admit the Vegeta and Trunks moment had absolutely no buildup. I actually did rewatch this scene not long ago. Was the moment where he gets angry at treating Trunks like trash in the manga also? If so, I guess that's not too bad. It seemed like the point of the scene was to show that Vegeta had feelings even he didn't know he had.

The manga plays it up more as a sudden realization but there is nothing that even kind of implies he even respects Trunks the way the anime did. Conversely, the anime also botches that scene because you've got Vegeta going on a tirade about Goku dying stronger than him so somewhere in-between these two, a perfect version exists. I don't know how Kai did it.

I think since the intention was to be a sudden realization, that the lack of buildup was fine. I get why you wouldn't though.

[ABED]

Vegeta's stubborn and changes slowly over time. I think the defeat from Cell did get to him and actually seeing Trunks dead was his breaking point. There are moments of slight pride from Vegeta when Trunks stands up to him, so it's not completely absent.