Is Goku to be blamed if anybody dies in the Tournament?

[Kanassa]

If Goku just listened. If he just listened not only to Beerus but to Whis! But he did not. Why? Because he wanted to fight. He did not NEEd to fight all those fighters from all over the multiverse.

Yeah, Goku is reckless. I still maintain that's he's like a drunk driver. What is Zeno? The accident that happened. Zeno would not destroy if Goku did not egg him to hold the tournament.

And because there was no reason to expect terrible consequences.

[Tonifranz]

If Goku just listened. If he just listened not only to Beerus but to Whis! But he did not. Why? Because he wanted to fight. He did not NEEd to fight all those fighters from all over the multiverse.

Yeah, Goku is reckless. I still maintain that's he's like a drunk driver. What is Zeno? The accident that happened. Zeno would not destroy if Goku did not egg him to hold the tournament.

And because there was no reason to expect terrible consequences.

He was literally warned just before that there might be serious consequences. If he chose not to believe them, that it's on Goku. If Whis and Beerus was vague, he should have asked clarificatory questions, or asked that they be more specific. Instead, he just tricked them by that button trick.

[HeroR]

What if that person honestly believes that the animals would not hurt anybody, because he's an animal lover?

No, I'm using that analogy to compare intentions. Nobody is arguing that Goku deliberately wanted to kill 11 universes. What I'm saying is that without Goku reminding Zeno of the tournament, after being repeatedly warned not to, he still did it because he wanted to.

I would understand if there was a pressing NEED to have a tournament. If there would be dire consequences if there was no tournament, then the risks of ignoring all the warnings are justifiable.

If Goku just listened. If he just listened not only to Beerus but to Whis! But he did not. Why? Because he wanted to fight. He did not NEEd to fight all those fighters from all over the multiverse.

Yeah, Goku is reckless. I still maintain that's he's like a drunk driver. What is Zeno? The accident that happened. Zeno would not destroy if Goku did not egg him to hold the tournament.

That still wouldn't work since Goku build a personal relationship with Zen'o. He isn't a random animal Goku met at the zoo and decided to liberate for the fun of it.

The problem with all your intentions arguments is that you're reducing Zen'o, the one responsible, to a thing or tool and not a living person. He reminded Zen'o of the tournament because unlike Beerus and even Whis, he doesn't see Zen'o as dangerous. Just temperamental, just like Beerus and even Champa, who he hangs out with despite them being highly dangerous gods. Zen's even helped him deal with Merged Zamasu he literally couldn't.

Zen'o is not an accident. He's a living thing with his own motive, not a natural or even unnatural occurrence.

He was literally warned just before that there might be serious consequences. If he chose not to believe them, that it's on Goku. If Whis and Beerus was vague, he should have asked clarificatory questions, or asked that they be more specific. Instead, he just tricked them by that button trick.

Why should Goku asked for classification since Beerus and Whis are the ones giving vague warnings? They offered nothing specific on their own. And he tricked them because Beerus was literally threatening to kill him. Yeah, I wouldn't stick around either.

[Draconic]

I used to be in the "no, he's not at fault" camp, but after today's episode i've changed positions. He was warned by both Beerus and Whis not to do this and even threatened with death. Sure, Beerus had an habit of threatening Goku and Vegeta before, but he was never serious about it and wouldn't have done it, even considering his short temper, but now he was ready to put it all on the line, knowing what Zeno was capable of. What did Goku do? Laugh it off, in his usual fashion, only this time the stakes aren't just about his friends, who were always fine with him endangering them like in the Saiyan and Android arcs. This drags with it the possible death of entire universers of people and the fighters to weak to defend them, who, unlike Goku, would be forced to fight due to the circumstances, not just for the thrill of it.

Sure, I don't think 100% of the blame is on him, since ultimately it is Zeno who choses to destroy everything as he pleases, including Goku if Universe 7 loses, but a lot could be avoided if he wasn't such a battle-junkie.

I just love how all this is set-up and I really hope there's something done with it. We already had moments where Goku's toxicity came into the forefront, but never on this scale, so it's about time there is some development coming out of it.

[Tonifranz]

What if that person honestly believes that the animals would not hurt anybody, because he's an animal lover?

No, I'm using that analogy to compare intentions. Nobody is arguing that Goku deliberately wanted to kill 11 universes. What I'm saying is that without Goku reminding Zeno of the tournament, after being repeatedly warned not to, he still did it because he wanted to.

I would understand if there was a pressing NEED to have a tournament. If there would be dire consequences if there was no tournament, then the risks of ignoring all the warnings are justifiable.

If Goku just listened. If he just listened not only to Beerus but to Whis! But he did not. Why? Because he wanted to fight. He did not NEEd to fight all those fighters from all over the multiverse.

Yeah, Goku is reckless. I still maintain that's he's like a drunk driver. What is Zeno? The accident that happened. Zeno would not destroy if Goku did not egg him to hold the tournament.

That still wouldn't work since Goku build a personal relationship with Zen'o. He isn't a random animal Goku met at the zoo and decided to liberate for the fun of it.

The problem with all your intentions arguments is that you're reducing Zen'o, the one responsible, to a thing or tool and not a living person. He reminded Zen'o of the tournament because unlike Beerus and even Whis, he doesn't see Zen'o as dangerous. Just temperamental, just like Beerus and even Champa, who he hangs out with despite them being highly dangerous gods. Zen's even helped him deal with Merged Zamasu he literally couldn't.

Zen'o is not an accident. He's a living thing with his own motive, not a natural or even unnatural occurrence.

Then how about this. Whatif that animal lover knows and loves the animals in the zoo, knew them since they were pups, yet still released them when they were adults because he knew that those lions whom he cared for since they were cubs, and those bison since calves, wouldn't hurt a fly, yet they killed people when he released them?

The problem was that this thread is not about Zeno, it's about Goku. Nobody is arguing that Zeno is the principal, the one with the guilty mind. Zeno, in law, would be the principal of the crime. A thread dedicated to Zeno should be used to argue about his culpability, but to me, it's not an issue, because he is culpable. Since that is settled, we are arguing about the responsibility of other parties, and in this thread, Goku.

We are asking if Goku has some, as they say in law, "contributory negligence" to any damage that might arise as a result of the crime that is about to happen. Or as this thread title states, "is Goku to blame?"

I arguing that Goku has contributed to it, in a significant way, even if he did not actually intend to do it, because he wanted to fight without needing to and he recklessly disregarded the warnings without any further inquiry. Before this episode, I have no beef with Goku's actions, since he had no way of knowing the consequnces. But after this episode? It changed my mind.

Why should Goku asked for classification since Beerus and Whis are the ones giving vague warnings? They offered nothing specific on their own. And he tricked them because Beerus was literally threatening to kill him. Yeah, I wouldn't stick around either.

Simple. If someone give vague warnings, you ask them to be more specific, specially if they are in front of you. What Goku did when Beerus and Whis warning about the danger of Zeno's innocence was that he'll be alright, and then he showed the button, saying that one side will bring Zeno to him, and the other will bring Goku to Zeno, clearly showing that he had no intention to listen anymore to any warnings, and he will get what he want.

It was Goku who goaded Beerus to threaten him, because he did not even bother to find out if there's any truth to what Beerus was telling him.

So it's on Goku.

[Kanassa]

He was literally warned just before that there might be serious consequences. If he chose not to believe them, that it's on Goku. If Whis and Beerus was vague, he should have asked clarificatory questions, or asked that they be more specific. Instead, he just tricked them by that button trick.

And in-universe it's perfectly logical to think Beerus is being paranoid. Zeno has shown to not be dangerous unless your an immortal psychopath leaking your essence all over the universe, and still displays that Goku is his best buddy. Again, there is no reason for Goku to suspect that Zeno would add a killing rule. Goku knows that Zeno is dangerous if angered, but Zeno is not angry, he's ecstatic and only seems to get happier with Goku around.

Hell, Beerus statement is kind of hilarious comming from him.
"Goku, if you piss him off, he could kill us all!"
"Don't you commit genocide because you don't get a puddin cup?"

[Tonifranz]

He was literally warned just before that there might be serious consequences. If he chose not to believe them, that it's on Goku. If Whis and Beerus was vague, he should have asked clarificatory questions, or asked that they be more specific. Instead, he just tricked them by that button trick.

And in-universe it's perfectly logical to think Beerus is being paranoid. Zeno has shown to not be dangerous unless your an immortal psychopath leaking your essence all over the universe, and still displays that Goku is his best buddy. Again, there is no reason for Goku to suspect that Zeno would add a killing rule. Goku knows that Zeno is dangerous if angered, but Zeno is not angry, he's ecstatic and only seems to get happier with Goku around.

Hell, Beerus statement is kind of hilarious comming from him.
"Goku, if you piss him off, he could kill us all!"
"Don't you commit genocide because you don't get a puddin cup?"

True about Beerus being a hypocrite.

But what Goku did was this. Beerus, and Whis, warned him about his innocence being the true danger.

Then Goku said he'll be alright. And showed the button. Saying that one side was to bring Zeno here, and the other side would bring him to Zeno.

Beerus threatened him because. Then Goku did that coin flip trick.

Really, would it kill Goku to just ask Beerus and Whis to be more specific, to tell him why Zeno is so dangerous even if he was so childlike and innocent in appearance?

[HeroR]

True about Beerus being a hypocrite.

But what Goku did was this. Beerus, and Whis, warned him about his innocence being the true danger.

Then Goku said he'll be alright. And showed the button. Saying that one side was to bring Zeno here, and the other side would bring him to Zeno.

Beerus threatened him because. Then Goku did that coin flip trick.

Really, would it kill Goku to just ask Beerus and Whis to be more specific, to tell him why Zeno is so dangerous even if he was so childlike and innocent in appearance?

And again, why couldn't Beerus and Whis be specific on their own?

[Tonifranz]

True about Beerus being a hypocrite.

But what Goku did was this. Beerus, and Whis, warned him about his innocence being the true danger.

Then Goku said he'll be alright. And showed the button. Saying that one side was to bring Zeno here, and the other side would bring him to Zeno.

Beerus threatened him because. Then Goku did that coin flip trick.

Really, would it kill Goku to just ask Beerus and Whis to be more specific, to tell him why Zeno is so dangerous even if he was so childlike and innocent in appearance?

And again, why couldn't Beerus and Whis be specific on their own?

Maybe they thought that they were? It's a normal reaction, after all, to ask for clarification if they do not understand what you meant or it's too vague. Happens all the time in real life.

"Innocence is Danger" should have interested Goku to ask more about it.

But Goku never did. He said he'll be alright, then showed the button, and explained that one side would bring Zeno here, and the other side would bring him to Zeno.

[HeroR]

Maybe they thought that they were? It's a normal reaction, after all, to ask for clarification if they do not understand what you meant or it's too vague. Happens all the time in real life.

"Innocence is Danger" should have interested Goku to ask more about it.

But Goku never did. He said he'll be alright, then showed the button, and explained that one side would bring Zeno here, and the other side would bring him to Zeno.

"This person is dangerous because they're innocent and noble."

How is that specific in any context?

[Tonifranz]

Maybe they thought that they were? It's a normal reaction, after all, to ask for clarification if they do not understand what you meant or it's too vague. Happens all the time in real life.

"Innocence is Danger" should have interested Goku to ask more about it.

But Goku never did. He said he'll be alright, then showed the button, and explained that one side would bring Zeno here, and the other side would bring him to Zeno.

"This person is dangerous because they're innocent and noble."

How is that specific in any context?

Maybe it is, maybe it's not. Beerus and Whis, in their minds, may think them specific enough. Maybe it's jargon for the gods.

Goku should just have asked them for more details, or to be specific.

That's what normal people would do. Something like "Come again?" or "Could you explain that to me?"

Instead, Goku just disregarded it and said, "It'll be fine." And showed the button.

[RehBeh]

Not really. It's Zeno's nature that's gonna doom the losing universes.

[HeroR]

Maybe it is, maybe it's not. Beerus and Whis, in their minds, may think them specific enough. Maybe it's jargon for the gods.

Goku should just have asked them for more details, or to be specific.

That's what normal people would do. Something like "Come again?" or "Could you explain that to me?"

Instead, Goku just disregarded it and said, "It'll be fine." And showed the button.

There is no 'maybe' about it. It's a vague threat with no context and it boarders on 'take my word on it'. Proper context would be the warning King Kai gave Goku about Beerus or the Supreme Kai about Majin Buu. It was on them to provided details, not Goku, since they're the ones issuing the warning.

[Tonifranz]

Maybe it is, maybe it's not. Beerus and Whis, in their minds, may think them specific enough. Maybe it's jargon for the gods.

Goku should just have asked them for more details, or to be specific.

That's what normal people would do. Something like "Come again?" or "Could you explain that to me?"

Instead, Goku just disregarded it and said, "It'll be fine." And showed the button.

There is no 'maybe' about it. It's a vague threat with no context and it boarders on 'take my word on it'. Proper context would be the warning King Kai gave Goku about Beerus or the Supreme Kai about Majin Buu. It was on them to provided details, not Goku, since they're the ones issuing the warning.

Yes there is. What would be perfectly clear to me may be vague to you. And what is vague to me may be clear to you. An example would be a lawyer saying to his client that , "You should plead the 5th," or should "do a plea bargain." To the lawyer'sd mind, he was very precise and not vague at all. If the client is a foreigner, or an American who does not know law, the lawyer is too vague, and in actuality, would ask clarificatory questions.

It's the same. It's on Goku for completely ignoring it and just doing what he wanted without considering at all what Whis and Beerus were trying to tell him.

And it's not as if there's an emergency that would necessitate Goku going to Zeno immediately. He has all the time in the world to just wait and listen to what Beerus and Whis are trying to tell him.

[ekrolo2]

He's partially responsible yes, he knows from both seeing and hearing about Zeno's power that the runt has no qualms about destroying things. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to consider the possibility of him going rogue even for something as simple as a tournament. But then again, if Zeno wasn't inherently a little shit Goku wouldn't have anything to worry about.

[HeroR]

Yes there is. What would be perfectly clear to me may be vague to you. And what is vague to me may be clear to you. An example would be a lawyer saying to his client that , "You should plead the 5th," or should "do a plea bargain." To the lawyer'sd mind, he was very precise and not vague at all. If the client is a foreigner, or an American who does not know law, the lawyer is too vague, and in actuality, would ask clarificatory questions.

It's the same. It's on Goku for completely ignoring it and just doing what he wanted without considering at all what Whis and Beerus were trying to tell him.

And it's not as if there's an emergency that would necessitate Goku going to Zeno immediately. He has all the time in the world to just wait and listen to what Beerus and Whis are trying to tell him.

Calling someone dangerous and not giving any context is vague, there is no ifs or ands about it. And Beerus and Whis never tried to give examples, instead Beerus threatened him which shuts down any conversation.

[Tonifranz]

Yes there is. What would be perfectly clear to me may be vague to you. And what is vague to me may be clear to you. An example would be a lawyer saying to his client that , "You should plead the 5th," or should "do a plea bargain." To the lawyer'sd mind, he was very precise and not vague at all. If the client is a foreigner, or an American who does not know law, the lawyer is too vague, and in actuality, would ask clarificatory questions.

It's the same. It's on Goku for completely ignoring it and just doing what he wanted without considering at all what Whis and Beerus were trying to tell him.

And it's not as if there's an emergency that would necessitate Goku going to Zeno immediately. He has all the time in the world to just wait and listen to what Beerus and Whis are trying to tell him.

Calling someone dangerous and not giving any context is vague, there is no ifs or ands about it. And Beerus and Whis never tried to give examples, instead Beerus threatened him which shuts down any conversation.

Again, what may be dangerous for one person may not all be dangerous to another's perspective. So there's maybe.

If it is vague, Goku should have asked about it more. Beerus and Whis never gave examples because Goku jumped the gun by saying "It'll be fine" and showing the buttom.

After that "innocence is dangerous" speech, he said,

"It'll be fine." Then shows the button, saying one side would bring Zeno here, and the other side would bring Goku to Zeno. Then Goku said,

"Which button should I press."

Then Beerus threatened him.

It's clear that Goku was not interested in trying to listen to Beerus and Whis to give their side. If I were Goku, instead of saying "It'll be fine," and showing the button, I would have asked him more about what he meant.

Goku completely ignored it.

It's Goku's fault.

[FoolsGil]

Um yeah? It's Goku holding back against Majin Vegeta and Majin Buu all over again. His negligence, arrogance, and selfishness this time causing multi-universe obliteration.

He held back against Buu because he didn't want the next generation of fighters to depend on him. It was probably Goku most selfless act since he thought about the Earth's future instead of his need to fight Buu and test himself. He also held back against Vegeta to save his feelings.

Both acts were the exact opposite of negligence, arrogance, and selfishness.

The Entire Earth and all of its citizens were wiped out, and it's all his fault. Didn't you know? the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

Also, the whole 'Super Goku's is a selfish/idiot while Z Goku wasn't' is just factually false.

He spared Vegeta, a mass-murdering space pirate, solely to fight him again. Vegeta turning good was not an outcome he was expecting. In fact, he outright tells Krillin that he didn't expect Vegeta to turn good like Piccolo. It was all a happy accident. Even then, Vegeta killed an entire Namekian village, helped Cell become complete that led to more deaths, and helped revived Buu that caused almost everyone on Earth to die and put the universe in danger.

In Resurrection 'F', a movie written by Toriyama, he was more than happy to let Freeza live to fight him again. This is despite Goku knowing what a sociopath Freeza was. Super actually had Goku hate Freeza's guts and spare him as an insult.

I didn't say anything about Z Goku being less selfish, you can take that somewhere else to someone who actually said it.

[HeroR]

The Entire Earth and all of its citizens were wiped out, and it's all his fault. Didn't you know? the road to hell is paved with good intentions.


I didn't say anything about Z Goku being less selfish, you can take that somewhere else to someone who actually said it.

No, it was all Gotenks' fault because he had the power to kill Buu, but screwed around to look cool. It was then Gohan's fault because he smashed Super Buu and then let him escape and absorbed Gotenks. Before then, it was Vegeta's fault because he sold his soul for power.

And I was obviously not talking about your post in the second paragraph.

[FoolsGil]

The Entire Earth and all of its citizens were wiped out, and it's all his fault. Didn't you know? the road to hell is paved with good intentions.


I didn't say anything about Z Goku being less selfish, you can take that somewhere else to someone who actually said it.

No, it was all Gotenks' fault because he had the power to kill Buu, but screwed around to look cool. It was then Gohan's fault because he smashed Super Buu and then let him escape and absorbed Gotenks. Before then, it was Vegeta's fault because he sold his soul for power.

The buck stops at Goku. He's the shonen hero of this series! You want to blame everyone else, go ahead, but he was first on the plate, the first to fight, the one who's supposed to be Jesus, Buddha, and Churchill rolled into one, and his selfishiness, arrogance, and negligence, unleashed genocide. Whatever excuse you have, it still happened, it's still on him.

And I was obviously not talking about your post in the second paragraph.

Excuse me, my bad.