Is Goku to be blamed if anybody dies in the Tournament?

[DasMightyKing]

Yes

It's fucking irrelevant if Goku didn't know about this win or die rule, it's irrelevant that Zeno is on "good terms" with Goku. Just the fact that Zeno is so unpredictable which Goku knows should be enough. He should just back down when Beerus got serious, not trick his superior.

We had Beerus threatening to kill him, both he and Whis warning him to just forget about the tournament - his Masters, the people that have training him. He knows that Zeno can destroy Universes on a whim and was reminded of that, and Goku is just there smiling. Saying which button to press as if its a game.

Z Goku made a few very questionable decisions but he wasn't this fucking stupid outside of comic relief. And yeah, the whole Majin Vegeta and Cell Senzu bean doesn't compare to this. You actually have to cherry-pick out of comic relief Z scenes where Goku is being this out of it.

[TheMathemagician]

Yes

It's fucking irrelevant if Goku didn't know about this win or die rule, it's irrelevant that Zeno is on "good terms" with Goku. Just the fact that Zeno is so unpredictable which Goku knows should be enough. He should just back down when Beerus got serious, not trick his superior.

We had Beerus threatening to kill him, both he and Whis warning him to just forget about the tournament - his Masters, the people that have training him. He knows that Zeno can destroy Universes on a whim and was reminded of that, and Goku is just there smiling. Saying which button to press as if its a game.

Z Goku made a few very questionable decisions but he wasn't this fucking stupid outside of comic relief. And yeah, the whole Majin Vegeta and Cell Senzu bean doesn't compare to this. You actually have to cherry-pick out of comic relief Z scenes where Goku is being this out of it.

Lol yes it does. You're straight up excusing what he did back then. It isn't hard to choose a moment, there's no cherry picking involved at all. Your claim implies he has zero justification for what he's doing in this episode, but there was literally no justification to allowing Vegeta live. Both times he tempted fate, both times he did what he did for purely selfish reasons.

[DainIronfoot]

If Gowasu gets erased I sure as hell am blaming Goku. I'm subscribed to him, he makes incredible tea review videos. Hasn't our favorite kamituber suffered enough :c?

[incarnati0n]

If anyone should be blamed, it's Freeza for not making sure that he actually killed every saiyan when he had the chance.

[SsjCookie]

It really isn't any different than how Z or even 23rd Goku has been. People are actually trying to justify Goku's actions pre-Super as if his actions in Super are any worse than his actions in Z or late DB. They're not. There really isn't much of a difference between Z Goku and Super Goku. He was being a pretty big jerkass convincing Kuririn to let Vegeta go even though he had no justifiable reason to let Vegeta live. This action really isn't any worse.

BUT...had Krillin killed Vegeta, there would be no Trunks, and without Trunks Goku would have died of the heart virus.
And without Goku everyone would have died.

So by sparing Vegeta he ultimately saved himself and the rest of the Z gang.

So maybe some of his actions are selfish, they sometimes turn out for the best.

You're using hindsight to justify Vegeta. Goku had no way of knowing that Vegeta would turn good. In fact, Goku outright said he doubted Vegeta would be like Piccolo and planned to kill him the next time they met. Also, as far as we know, Bulma could of had a child with Yamcha would could have done the exact same things as Future Trunks.

And if we're going to used, 'it turned out for the best despite being selfish', you can make the same argument about this arc since we don't know what what will happened. Maybe, 'things will turn out for the best' here too. That still doesn't excuse Goku sparing Vegeta which was 100% selfish and the happy outcome was completely accidental.

Hindsight is a B@#h yeah I know, it doesn'r excuse Goku's selfishness when it comes to making such decisions.
And in the case of Vegeta his selfishness has paid off and he is now an integral part of Earths defence.
This wasn't the same with Freeza and Cell though, sparing them certainly wasn't the best decision Goku had ever made.

I'm actually hoping things will NOT turn out for the best for a change, Goku's nativity needs to be cured....the HARD way.
And the only way I think he finally gets it is by suffering a permanent loss.

[HeroR]

Hindsight is a B@#h yeah I know, it doesn'r excuse Goku's selfishness when it comes to making such decisions.
And in the case of Vegeta his selfishness has paid off and he is now an integral part of Earths defence.
This wasn't the same with Freeza and Cell though, sparing them certainly wasn't the best decision Goku had ever made.

I'm actually hoping things will NOT turn out for the best for a change, Goku's nativity needs to be cured....the HARD way.
And the only way I think he finally gets it is by suffering a permanent loss.

Goku never tried to spare Cell. He tried to kill him and told Gohan to do the same. As for Vegeta, honestly a lot of conflicts could have been avoided if he let him die.

And losing other universes besides his own isn't a 'permanent lost' to Goku since it isn't his universe.

[SsjCookie]

And losing other universes besides his own isn't a 'permanent lost' to Goku since it isn't his universe.

Wouldn't he feel in some way responsible for that you think?
And I'm talking about losing someone close to him in a permanent way. "cough..Chichi..cough"
But the Dragonballs will fix everything of course.

[HeroR]

And losing other universes besides his own isn't a 'permanent lost' to Goku since it isn't his universe.

Wouldn't he feel in some way responsible for that you think?
And I'm talking about losing someone close to him in a permanent way. "cough..Chichi..cough"
But the Dragonballs will fix everything of course.

He may feel sympathetic like when Trunks' lost his timeline, but at the end of the day those other universes are not his.

[HybridSaiyan]

He was being a jerkass and I can see how that would piss people off this episode, but I honestly enjoyed the fact that he just trolls Beerus so casually.

There's quite a few people he do not particularly enjoy "jerkass" Goku. It's unnecessary, petty, and childish. Look we know Goku is no Hero, but the way he just $h*t all over the lives of everyone else in the universe is really bad.
The argument that he's done this before only makes him even more of a "jerkass". Some people aren't happy with watching this character fulfill that role more and more.

Yeah, SSJ4 Goku wouldn't think twice to pull a reckless move such as this.

I always thought Goku let Vegeta live to show him mercy, and hopefully have a change of heart like Piccolo. Sure he was going to fight him if he attacked Earth again, but I still see Goku as that protector. Not as heroic as Superman, but he still wants to protect those dear to him no matter what.

[Boo Machine]

I always thought Goku let Vegeta live to show him mercy, and hopefully have a change of heart like Piccolo. Sure he was going to fight him if he attacked Earth again, but I still see Goku as that protector. Not as heroic as Superman, but he still wants to protect those dear to him no matter what.

He let Piccolo go partly to save Kami and partly so he could fight him again and improve himself. I think even Krillin calls him a moron for not just sealing him up with the Mafuba if I remember correctly.

He let Vegeta go, not to show mercy but to have a chance to fight and beat him on his own. That's why he acknowledges it as a selfish request to let him go.

Goku's priority has always been that next challenge. If protecting was his priority then he wouldn't have let Piccolo or Vegeta go in the first place.

I get that those who grew up with Hero Goku can get upset when he isn't acting like the hero they want. I grew up with that same Goku. But Toriyama and Toei aren't going to model their characters based on what the Dub turned them into.

Not saying you have to like Goku, You're free to hate his guts if that's how you feel, but this is pretty much who he is and always been, and I feel pretending otherwise is just silly, Super may exaggerate Gokus more naive nature more times than any of us like, but Gokus priority is still the same as it's ever been. Punching and eating.

[Kanassa]

I always thought Goku let Vegeta live to show him mercy, and hopefully have a change of heart like Piccolo

I might have to rewatch the scene, but doesn't Goku make it clear that he knows that won't happen, and simply wants to fight Vegeta again, but without help.

[HeroR]

I always thought Goku let Vegeta live to show him mercy, and hopefully have a change of heart like Piccolo

I might have to rewatch the scene, but doesn't Goku make it clear that he knows that won't happen, and simply wants to fight Vegeta again, but without help.

In the original Japanese, Goku actually says he doesn't believe Vegeta would change like Piccolo and he wanted Vegeta to live for purely selfish reasons. Goku didn't mix words, he just wanted a rematch and even said he would kill Vegeta. Vegeta becoming good, even Goku believed that was bridge too far.

He let Piccolo go partly to save Kami and partly so he could fight him again and improve himself. I think even Krillin calls him a moron for not just sealing him up with the Mafuba if I remember correctly.

He let Vegeta go, not to show mercy but to have a chance to fight and beat him on his own. That's why he acknowledges it as a selfish request to let him go.

Goku's priority has always been that next challenge. If protecting was his priority then he wouldn't have let Piccolo or Vegeta go in the first place.

I get that those who grew up with Hero Goku can get upset when he isn't acting like the hero they want. I grew up with that same Goku. But Toriyama and Toei aren't going to model their characters based on what the Dub turned them into.

Not saying you have to like Goku, You're free to hate his guts if that's how you feel, but this is pretty much who he is and always been, and I feel pretending otherwise is just silly, Super may exaggerate Gokus more naive nature more times than any of us like, but Gokus priority is still the same as it's ever been. Punching and eating.

Actually, no one mentioned sealing Piccolo after he lost to Goku. Kami was going to outright murdered Piccolo.

And Toei did hero Goku too, especially in the movies.

[HybridSaiyan]

I always thought Goku let Vegeta live to show him mercy, and hopefully have a change of heart like Piccolo. Sure he was going to fight him if he attacked Earth again, but I still see Goku as that protector. Not as heroic as Superman, but he still wants to protect those dear to him no matter what.

He let Piccolo go partly to save Kami and partly so he could fight him again and improve himself. I think even Krillin calls him a moron for not just sealing him up with the Mafuba if I remember correctly.

He let Vegeta go, not to show mercy but to have a chance to fight and beat him on his own. That's why he acknowledges it as a selfish request to let him go.

Goku's priority has always been that next challenge. If protecting was his priority then he wouldn't have let Piccolo or Vegeta go in the first place.

I get that those who grew up with Hero Goku can get upset when he isn't acting like the hero they want. I grew up with that same Goku. But Toriyama and Toei aren't going to model their characters based on what the Dub turned them into.

Not saying you have to like Goku, You're free to hate his guts if that's how you feel, but this is pretty much who he is and always been, and I feel pretending otherwise is just silly, Super may exaggerate Gokus more naive nature more times than any of us like, but Gokus priority is still the same as it's ever been. Punching and eating.

Yeah, I was one of those who grew up as a child watching Goku on Toonami which was handled by the Funi Dub. He was a true hero to me back then, especially how Funi portrayed his righteous self in the movies. I know that's not his true character, and his true character is just a cunt who loves fighting, risking it all just for the thrill. This change is why I'm starting to favor Vegeta more. He's becoming more of a hero lol.

[Low Tone G]

He let Piccolo go partly to save Kami and partly so he could fight him again and improve himself. I think even Krillin calls him a moron for not just sealing him up with the Mafuba if I remember correctly.

He let Vegeta go, not to show mercy but to have a chance to fight and beat him on his own. That's why he acknowledges it as a selfish request to let him go.

Goku's priority has always been that next challenge. If protecting was his priority then he wouldn't have let Piccolo or Vegeta go in the first place.

I get that those who grew up with Hero Goku can get upset when he isn't acting like the hero they want. I grew up with that same Goku. But Toriyama and Toei aren't going to model their characters based on what the Dub turned them into.

Not saying you have to like Goku, You're free to hate his guts if that's how you feel, but this is pretty much who he is and always been, and I feel pretending otherwise is just silly, Super may exaggerate Gokus more naive nature more times than any of us like, but Gokus priority is still the same as it's ever been. Punching and eating.

No, it's not only the Dub... Toriyama pointed out that Toei gave Goku this "righteous hero" portrayal.
So this interpretation was always there. The sad thing is that now Toei doesn't really find the balance between old Toei Goku and Toriyama's goofy Goku, who in fact is not that goofy like this Goku in Super.

[Boo Machine]

Actually, no one mentioned sealing Piccolo after he lost to Goku. Kami was going to outright murdered Piccolo.

And Toei did hero Goku too, especially in the movies.

Granted it might be a mistranslation on my part, but the manga I have right now has Krillin yelling at Goku for not sealing up piccolo right after piccolo flew off.

Toei for sure did make Goku more heroic, but didn't the dub turn up the hero dial quite a bit? Or am I imagining things?

No, it's not only the Dub... Toriyama pointed out that Toei gave Goku this "righteous hero" portrayal.
So this interpretation was always there. The sad thing is that now Toei doesn't really find the balance between old Toei Goku and Toriyama's goofy Goku, who in fact is not that goofy like this Goku in Super.

Yes I realize Toei did it first, but I'm almost certain Funi dialed the hero thing up and did the whole "Letting people go for mercy" thing. I thought I remembered a line where he mentions letting Vegeta go because he might change just like piccolo did. Granted it's been a good while since I've seen the original Dub. So I may remember incorrectly.

[Boo Machine]

This change is why I'm starting to favor Vegeta more. He's becoming more of a hero lol.

Vegeta definitely has a more interesting change. That much is certain.

[HybridSaiyan]

Can I ask why fans don't like Goku being a hero anyway?

[HeroR]

Actually, no one mentioned sealing Piccolo after he lost to Goku. Kami was going to outright murdered Piccolo.

And Toei did hero Goku too, especially in the movies.

Granted it might be a mistranslation on my part, but the manga I have right now has Krillin yelling at Goku for not sealing up piccolo right after piccolo flew off.

Toei for sure did make Goku more heroic, but didn't the dub turn up the hero dial quite a bit? Or am I imagining things?

So Krillin didn't mention this until after Piccolo left? Why didn't he mention this before when Kami was going to kill Piccolo? By that time, sealing Piccolo wasn't an option since he can reflect it. I don't think sealing would be on Goku's mind since Goku saw the Evil Containment Wave fail against Piccolo.

Goku was practically the messiah in some of the movies. Funi only took it to Superman levels during the Frieza Saga and then dialed it down afterward. Although he was still portrayed as more heroic overall.

Can I ask why fans don't like Goku being a hero anyway?

Because that isn't the Goku Toriyama created. Hero Goku is an interpretation giving to Goku by Funi and Toei. Most people tend to favorite whatever the author original intended like there are fans who like Golden Age/dick Superman over boy scout/messiah Superman. And Goku is still a hero. He's just not a straight 'goody-goody' hero like Captain America or Superman. He's closer to the movie version of Iron Man.

[Ki Breaker]

Can I ask why fans don't like Goku being a hero anyway?

Most don't because that's not how he is supposed to be..
Personally, don't care either way

[Boo Machine]

Can I ask why fans don't like Goku being a hero anyway?

I Obviously can't speak for everyone, but I feel that it's not so much as fans not wanting a hero Goku as it is people just wanting the more accurate or Toriyama version.

Some also feel like Goku not being a Hero makes him a more unique shonen protagonist. That's debatable of course.

Me personally, I'm fine with either version. If he is a hero than Great! There is a reason Superman is my favorite Comic Book Super Hero.

If not, then that's great to. I think it makes him interesting enough and a little funny.